Understanding God’s election

[rogerg]

@rogerg



Except they weren't free from the purpose of God that they sin, since Christ had already been purposed to die for their sins from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Names were already written in the Lambs book of life before Adam was created

While I do agree that their names were written in the Lamb's book, to be honest, brightfame52, I don't believe they were purposed by God to eat the fruit of the tree. I don't think that was God's intention. Otherwise, why did He also place in the garden the tree of life?

[Jas 1:13-15 KJV]
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

The commandment below was God's commandment to Adam & Eve to not eat the fruit of the tree. It was ordained unto life not death.
Paul is speaking from the perspective of being spiritually within Adam's loins (as were we all) when they ate.

[Rom 7:9 & 10 KJV]
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.

 

[Rufus]

You are just unable to grasp the concept of a Savior
Your verses are not talking about cause but effect.
Their labor and deeds are a consequence of their salvation, not the cause of it.

He cannot grasp the "concept of a Savior" because he does not believe that man is his own worst enemy who needs to be saved, first and foremost, from himself. The self-deceived are blind to their own weaknesses, vulnerabilities, self-destructive tendencies, helplessness, corruption and above all else to their state of spiritual death.

 

[Magenta]

1 Corinthians 4:7b; John 3:27; Romans 9:15-16 What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did also receive it, why do you boast as not having received it? John replied, "A man can receive only that which is given him from heaven." "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

 

[rogerg]

He cannot grasp the "concept of a Savior" because he does not believe that man is his own worst enemy who needs to be saved, first and foremost, from himself. The self-deceived are blind to their own weaknesses, vulnerabilities, self-destructive tendencies, helplessness, corruption and above all else to their state of spiritual death.

Absolutely correct, Rufus.

 

[Rufus]

Calvinites are one verse wonders. A few zingers and time to wrap it up. Thats their game.

Tragically, this is standard operating procedure for the shallow student of Scripture BTW.

Not anywhere near as shallow as you, since you have not ventured out from under your rock to explain to us how the ancient Near East peoples would have understood Jer 10:23.

And why do you complain about my one verse? Because you're too shy, ashamed or fearful that you'll embarrass yourself by giving us your "pearls of wisdom" on how to rightly understand the verse? Maybe this additional and related verse will motivate you to come out of hiding and post something of genuine substance for a change:

Prov 20:24
24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand his own way?
NIV

I would love to know how you understand your own way.

Now...I've just graduated to being a two-verse wonder. And I have more such passages waiting in the wings if you need them.

 

[Genez]

That isn't referring to hate as you understand the emotion today. Because we are told hate is not a characteristic of those in Christ.

1 John 3:14-15
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death.
15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.


Doctrine isn't evil nor good by itself. Those who promote false teachings can be ignorant,unaware,unconscious,of God's truth.

That isn't evil. Because unless someone is changed by Holy Spirit God to know his truth they may believe they are conscious of God's truth and yet not be.

Then there are those worldly people who are evil. And create a corrupt ideology that glorifies self as savior. And some make of themselves an idolatrous teacher image so to Garner followers of their way.
Joel Osteen is an example.

Teaching that God pays us in material reward for proclaiming his lordship.

That's Satanic. That is evil.

Hate means various realities.
When it comes to hating father, mother, sister, and brother?

It is referred to the kind of hate when you can not stand a certain food.
You'll just push it away and eat something else.

 

[Genez]

He cannot grasp the "concept of a Savior" because he does not believe that man is his own worst enemy who needs to be saved, first and foremost, from himself. The self-deceived are blind to their own weaknesses, vulnerabilities, self-destructive tendencies, helplessness, corruption and above all else to their state of spiritual death.

Obviously, you have been shown yours. Right?

 

[Genez]

Irresistible grace is comforting to those who cling to it, because it acts to remove their sense of guilt for their knowing how much they hated God.

But, it still does not explain why our belief is what God seeks!

He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”


Acts 16:30-31

 

[Cameron143]

Right. No one would ever believe in grace because they believe it is what the Bible teaches. Only a bunch of selfish people looking to assuage their collective guilty conscience.

 

[Blade]

I have not swamped the OP with a lot of Scripture quotations,
but hopefully you will recall the NT verses which confirm the following …

Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel
1 – Because of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve,
all humans are born with an inherited sin nature,
and are bent on sinning instead of following God (Romans 3:9-18).
Having a saving faith is against their very nature!
2 - All unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan,
and are bent on doing whatever he wants them to do (2 Timothy 2:26).
Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free (Luke 4:18).
Having a saving faith is against our enemy’s plans for them,
which, of course, is spending eternity with Satan and his demons in hell.
If the God-worshipping Lydia (Acts 16:14) needs God to give her the necessary
faith to believe in Jesus and the Gospel, surely everyone does also!
Similarly, the “anyones” who believe in Jesus in verses such as John 3:16
are the ones whom God has given saving faith!

Father God elects (chooses) and calls whomever He wishes
Jesus says to the elect, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you ….” (John 16:15).
Surely, here is a strong hint that we should investigate this matter further.
Romans chapter 9 is the most famous proponent of God’s election …
“… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)
God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!
God wishes that all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.
“You love justice and hate evil.” (Hebrews 1”9)
God is not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should repent …
… the “us” referring to His elect, who are promised salvation.
Christians are called to confess and repent of their on-going sins,
and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of all their unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9).

The reason why Father God chooses some, but not others
Father God chooses to elect some people for His great pleasure.
He chooses to elect some to demonstrate to the whole world
His great love, mercy, grace, etc. (Romans 9:23).
He chooses to elect some to be companions for His Son throughout eternity (Scriptural?).
Those not chosen are given justice, which sadly is what they deserve.

Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation
This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.
Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.
Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us … and for the Holy Spirit sanctifying us unto holiness
… and for Jesus interceding for us before Father God in heaven.

Some things said here are speculation and is your personal view not what's written. For God so loved the world. He didn't come to condemn the world but to save it. Who so ever. OT Everyone/anyone that calls on the name of the lord shall be saved. OT Choose this day whom you shall serve. Man has a free choice and can choose life or death. Christ tells some go and sin no more. They were no believer yet had the right the choose to sin or not. No offense but your blindly taking Rom 9 23 out of context. A day is coming when sheep and goats are spilt and there are some standing there that knew they were His elect. Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Again the command for us to go in to all the world to every man every creature. He died already for the sin of the world and as of this moment no books have been open. He died for all. The sweet holy Spirit convicts the "world" of sin that sin is that they do not know Him. See I'm not here to debate this. What is so wonderful is all those standing before Him. They were just those that came out of the great tribulation. A number no man could number. Some have no problem talking about people that a GOD created. Yeah its His creation. So lets give away what was freely given to us.

 

[brightfame52]

@rogerg

While I do agree that their names were written in the Lamb's book, to be honest, brightfame52, I don't believe they were purposed by God to eat the fruit of the tree. I don't think that was God's intention.

You dont really ? Im surprised at that Roger, Christ was setup preordained to die for the elect before the world began 1 Pet 1:19-20
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

So Adam had to conform to Gods set purpose

I don't think that was God's intention. Otherwise, why did He also place in the garden the tree of life?

I believe the tree of life was there to sustain the physical life they had from creation, and that life was sustained as long as they obeyed Gods commandment not to eat of the other forbidden tree

[Jas 1:13-15 KJV]
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God didnt tempt them, the devil did, and believe it or not the devil was acting in concert with Gods set purpose

The commandment below was God's commandment to Adam & Eve to not eat the fruit of the tree. It was ordained unto life not death.
Paul is speaking from the perspective of being spiritually within Adam's loins (as were we all) when they ate.

It was, it was ordained to spiritual life, the law was given to the elect to bring them to faith in Christ

Gal 3:24-26

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Through their eating, they found their need for Christ, the seed of the women,

I believe Adam and Eve were the first Christians to believe in Christ.

 

[Genez]

Right. No one would ever believe in grace because they believe it is what the Bible teaches. Only a bunch of selfish people looking to assuage their collective guilty conscience.

The real problem lies here....

What is your concept of grace?
And, why?

 

[Cameron143]

The real problem lies here....

What is your concept of grace?
And, why?

That may be part of the problem. Another part is making blanket statements that are clearly false.

 

[Magenta]

I believe the tree of life was there to sustain the physical life they had from creation, and that life was sustained as long as they obeyed Gods commandment not to eat of the other forbidden tree .

That would mean that everything with the breath of life would have to be eating from the tree of Life to sustain their physical existence ... and that doesn't make any sense in the first place because Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden and they continued to live physically for hundreds and hundreds of years afterwards.

 

[Genez]

That may be part of the problem.
Another part is making blanket statements that are clearly false.

Thank you for your answer, sir.
Which was a non-answer.

And, that is the problem.

I asked for you to explain your concept of grace…
Which you are incapable of doing.
Then you switched subjects.

Why not ask me to explain what you see as "blanket statements?"
And, just maybe, I'll show how an answer is to be given....

You found a banner to take a stand under.
But, you do not know what it means in its divine function pertaining to God's election.

Long as nobody demands an honest answer, you can act brave and bold in your stand.
Your hope is founded in believing that nobody truly understands the Word of God in regard to election any better than you do.

Ask what things mean... next time.

 

[Genez]

That would mean that everything with the breath of life would have to be eating from the tree of Life to sustain their physical existence ... and that doesn't make any sense in the first place because Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden and they continued to live physically for hundreds and hundreds of years afterwards.

They lived that long because of the phenomenal DNA God initially created into the first man.

The Tree of Life would have kept Adam's DNA from deteriorating any further,
and Adam would have remained in the same fallen state forever.

The Tree of Life brings perpetual, unchanging, physical life.
That was why God needed to remove the tree after Adam fell.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Grace means favor. It's God's disposition towards his people

H2580 חֵן chen (chane) n-m.
1. graciousness.
2. (subjective) kindness, favor.

G5484 χάριν charin (cha'-riyn) adv.
1. (properly) on account of grace or favor.

 

[rogerg]

You dont really ? Im surprised at that Roger, Christ was setup preordained to die for the elect before the world began 1 Pet 1:19-20
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

So Adam had to conform to Gods set purpose

To be honest, brightframe52, for me to expound my arguments to counter your post (in a friendly, non-argumentative manner of course), for the sake of the discussion, I would have to place myself in the position of sitting as judge over God to infer, assess, and project His motives as they pertained to causing the sin of Adam and Eve, and I just do not feel comfortable in doing so. So, I'll have to pass on this particular discussion. I will however continue to ponder the question for it is an interesting one, and should I find anything in scripture that changes my opinion or sheds more light on the subject, I'll get back to you and we can reengage/reevaluate then.

 

[cv5]

To be honest, brightframe52, for me to expound my arguments to counter your post (in a friendly, non-argumentative manner of course), for the sake of the discussion, I would have to place myself in the position of sitting as judge over God to infer, assess, and project His motives as they pertained to causing the sin of Adam and Eve, and I just do not feel comfortable in doing so. So, I'll have to pass on this particular discussion. I will however continue to ponder the question for it is an interesting one, and should I find anything in scripture that changes my opinion or sheds more light on the subject, I'll get back to you and we can reengage/reevaluate then.

@rogerg said:
"Except they weren't free from the purpose of God that they sin"

And there you go. You have made an unequivocally clear unambiguous admission of your core belief:

That Holy God is the author, planner and originator of sin and evil.
Which is of course the FALSE ACCUSATION OF SATAN.

 

[Cameron143]

Thank you for your answer, sir.
Which was a non-answer.

And, that is the problem.

I asked for you to explain your concept of grace…
Which you are incapable of doing.
Then you switched subjects.

Why not ask me to explain what you see as "blanket statements?"
And, just maybe, I'll show how an answer is to be given....

You found a banner to take a stand under.
But, you do not know what it means in its divine function pertaining to God's election.

Long as nobody demands an honest answer, you can act brave and bold in your stand.
Your hope is founded in believing that nobody truly understands the Word of God in regard to election any better than you do.

Ask what things mean... next time.

There's another part of the problem. You made a false statement about what everyone's motivation was. You changed the subject with your question. So I stayed on topic and addressed your false statement a second time and you throw shade. Just come clean. Your blanket statement is 7false. Everyone who believes in irresistible grace does not believe this because they are trying to assuage guilt. In fact, I've never heard anyone give that explanation as the cause of their belief. And I know alot of people who hold the belief. You simply cannot own up to the fact that you ascribed to others ao motivation that isn't theirs. Perhaps you did that to assuage your own guilt.
Try to stay on topic. The topic is motivation, not the definition of grace.