Understanding God’s election

[Intersection]

Yes, Jesus Christ was predestined from all eternity and the believers. Become the chosen IN Jesus Christ.

Never put the cart before the horse.

he hath chosen us in him

Do you agree?

The Elect of God Defined.

The Elect of God: The elect of God are those who God foreknown would, as believers without willful unbelief, ultimately choose to cooperate with His grace within the sound doctrine of Jesus Christ and the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Rufus]

I limit Romans 8:29 to "conformed" because that is what Calvin does to "predestined".

You know that Romans 8:29 states, "conformed to the IMAGE OF THE SON".

Then you accuse me of deception.

What part of V. 30 don't you understand?

Rom 8:30
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
NIV

And for the record, kindly stick "Calvin" or "Calvinism" in your ear. The writings of Calvin are NOT my frame of reference. The bible is! Have you ever seen me quote anything by Calvin?

And what's really ironic here is that "conformed to the image of the Son" will ultimately become our PERFECT reality when we reach glorification at the Parousia. After all, there is no sin or sinner in heaven, nor will there be any in the restored creation. So...how much more perfectly will all the saints be conformed to the image of the Son after they leave this life!?

 

[Magenta]

My,you are quick to anger. And judge.

When your post begins with first person perspective readers are not to blame.

I do not enjoy angry people's crass remarks. Good day .

How judgmental you are. I was not angry to patiently point out your errors but you
are too proud to admit them and instead must crassly condemn me, so typical. Bye.

PS I started out by affirming what Scripture says. Please work on your comprehension
skills, as they are sadly lacking, which is simply an honest observation. From my
opening statement affirming Scripture I moved directly into addressing their false doctrine

 

[Inquisitor]

My,you are quick to anger. And judge.

When your post begins with first person perspective readers are not to blame.

I do not enjoy angry people's crass remarks. Good day .

Calvinists can be ferocious.

Calvin himself approved of the execution of heretics.

The heretics are one of the enemies of true Christianity and they are to be loved, not executed.

 

[Rufus]

Do you agree?

The Elect of God Defined.

The Elect of God: The elect of God are those who God foreknown would, as believers without willful unbelief, ultimately choose to cooperate with His grace within the sound doctrine of Jesus Christ and the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

Just because you keep repeating a lie doesn't magically transform it into truth. You still haven't provided any biblical proof for your vacuous claim.

 

[Cameron143]

A good question.

But there was growth nevertheless from both the gospel seed and the tares.

Yes, but tares produce no harvest.

 

[Intersection]

A good question.

But there was growth nevertheless from both the gospel seed and the tares.

They watered and agitated the soil just enough to grow thorns and cockle.

 

[Cranberry]

Calvinists can be ferocious.

Calvin himself approved of the execution of heretics.

The heretics are one of the enemies of true Christianity and they are to be loved, not executed.

I will not judge someone's personal understanding as indoctrination. My concern was the lack of grace.

I do appreciate your perspective on the matter however. Thank you and God Bless.

 

[Cranberry]

Yes, but tares produce no harvest.

However,they do enrich the soil when plowed under and let to nourish a fallow field.And that which resides in the dirt is sustained by the decay.

 

[Magenta]

What that the Gentiles did not know God, they lived in darkness.

God reached out to the Gentiles also that can't be?

That is unconditional love, Magenta.

Because we know that God chose the Jews only, God foreknew the Jews (Romans 11:2, Romans 8:29).

You ought to make a more concerted effort to overcome your desire to deceive.

I know it is a choice you make, to be deceptive. But you discredit yourself.

How can anyone believe anything you say when you gleefully speak out of both sides of your mouth?

 

[Inquisitor]

What part of V. 30 don't you understand?

Rom 8:30
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
NIV

And for the record, kindly stick "Calvin" or "Calvinism" in your ear. The writings of Calvin are NOT my frame of reference. The bible is! Have you ever seen me quote anything by Calvin?

And what's really ironic here is that "conformed to the image of the Son" will ultimately become our PERFECT reality when we reach glorification at the Parousia. After all, there is no sin or sinner in heaven, nor will there be any in the restored creation. So...how much more perfectly will all the saints be conformed to the image of the Son after they leave this life!?

How about you clarify what interpretation you follow.

I assumed you were a five point Calvinist and probably not a black stocking Calvinist.

Are you a four point Calvinist?

A three point Calvinist?

Being predestined IN Christ to that compliance, to that image, is in the present and in the future.

If you do not walk in the Spirit, bear the fruit, you know the outcome.

 

[Intersection]

Just because you keep repeating a lie doesn't magically transform it into truth. You still haven't provided any biblical proof for your vacuous claim.

The definition of God's elect is correct.

What specific part of this definition do you disagree with?


The Elect of God Defined.

The Elect of God: The elect of God are those who God foreknown would, as believers without willful unbelief, ultimately choose to cooperate with His grace within the sound doctrine of Jesus Christ and the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Rufus]

I told you someone previously that the word "foreknew" is bound by the context.

Paul is not directly talking to the Gentiles here rather, Paul is talking to the Jews in Rome.

Foreknew means those that were formerly known by God, the Jews.

Chat GPT.

This is a fascinating theological question, and the interpretation of Romans in the context of Calvinism (particularly its doctrines of predestination and election) requires careful attention to both the broader context of Paul's argument in the letter and the specific text of Romans 8:29-30. Let’s explore this by considering both possibilities.

Romans 8:29-30 and Calvinism
Romans 8:29-30 reads:

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."​

Calvinists often use this "golden chain of salvation" to support the doctrine of unconditional election—God predestines certain individuals to salvation based on His sovereign will, not on any foreseen faith or merit in them. The progression from foreknowledge to predestination, calling, justification, and glorification is seen as a seamless work of God's grace.

Contextual Considerations in Romans
However, the broader context of Romans introduces nuances that complicate a purely Calvinistic interpretation:

1. Paul's Focus on Israel and the Gentiles:
   • The immediate and extended context of Romans (chapters 9-11, especially) centers on God’s plan for Israel and the inclusion of the Gentiles. Paul explains how the Jews, despite being God's chosen people, failed to achieve righteousness through the law, while the Gentiles obtained righteousness through faith.
   • In this context, “foreknowledge” (Greek proginōskō) may not imply an individual predestining of believers but rather God’s covenantal foreknowledge of a group (e.g., Israel) or a plan for humanity.

---------------------------------------------------------- End Chat GPT ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even Chat GPT can detect that the context can alter the meaning of one or more verses.

That indeed Paul may have been referring to Israel in Romans 8:29.

If Romans 8:29 concerns Israel and not the Gentiles then you are in deep trouble Rufus.

You had better hope that you have not been twisting the scripture.

If there is even a whiff of Paul directly conversing with the Jews in Romans. Then you must take
a step back and reconsider what Calvin may have missed.

Paul was writing primarily to Gentile believers in Rome (Rom 1:7, 13). These are two verse you have meticulously avoided. So...physician, heal thyself! Make sure YOU are not the one who is twisting scripture to fit your presuppositions.

Furthermore, Paul is writing to New Covenant believers which embraces Jews and Gentiles. Paul is revealing eternal New Covenant truth to his readers!

 

[Intersection]

However,they do enrich the soil when plowed under and let to nourish a fallow field.And that which resides in the dirt is sustained by the decay.

Nature does not plow.

 

[Genez]

Tell me how does God decide who to regenerate? Why did you get picked and not Mr. Inability down the way?

People cannot "hear" in you view unless they are regenerated so what difference does it make if the hearer neglects.

What I see you trying to straddle the lanes a little bit, maybe you are recognizing how tragic and UN-biblical this doctrine of selection is?

TULIP scenario..

God looks in the sales bin. He then picks from all the defective merchandize, which hand puppets He will buy and play with that day.

They hate it when that is brought up...
And they will balk that you do not understand.
Yet, God has been pointing it out to them that they need to clean up their act if their thinking is to be found acceptable in His sight.

If they could only admit their error, God could correct them.

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid.

Proverbs 12:1 was written for us all!
Not all heed it...

 

[Cameron143]

However,they do enrich the soil when plowed under and let to nourish a fallow field.And that which resides in the dirt is sustained by the decay.

Are you saying that their value is found in their destruction?

 

[Cameron143]

TULIP scenario..

God looks in the sales bin. He then picks from all the defective merchandize, which hand puppets He will buy and play with that day.

They hate it when that is brought up...
And they will balk that you do not understand.
Yet, God has been pointing it out to them that they need to clean up their act if their thinking is to be found acceptable in His sight.

If they could only admit their error, God could correct them.

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid.

Proverbs 12:1 was written for us all!
Not all heed it...

Election isn't selection. It's not about choosing between different things already existing. It about choosing to create something entirely new.

 

[Inquisitor]

Paul was writing primarily to Gentile believers in Rome (Rom 1:7, 13). These are two verse you have meticulously avoided. So...physician, heal thyself! Make sure YOU are not the one who is twisting scripture to fit your presuppositions.

Furthermore, Paul is writing to New Covenant believers which embraces Jews and Gentiles. Paul is revealing eternal New Covenant truth to his readers!

You know I disagree with the standard interpretation of Romans.

Though you do admit that Paul does talk directly to the Jews.

There are not two verses I have ignored.

Paul is explaining why Israel failed to achieve righteousness through the law.

Romans 9:30-32
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though they could by works.

So your telling me that you completely misunderstood Paul's narration, all the way through Romans?

Paul was 'primarily' talking to the Gentiles?

Romans 2:17
But if you call yourself a Jew and rely upon the Law and boast in God..

You seriously think that Paul is talking to the Gentiles?

 

[Magenta]

They watered and agitated the soil just enough to grow thorns and cockle.

You don't hear that word often: cockle. It reminds me of a singer my dear mother used to enjoy...

 

[Inquisitor]

Are you saying that their value is found in their destruction?

Do you constantly need to keep moving the goal posts.

Confess that the soil is reprobate, dead, there will be no growth.