Understanding God’s election

Pilgrimshope · Tuesday at 9:24 PM

Being born of water and spirit like Jesus and his disciples all were ?

“And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: and there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:19-20‬ ‭

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ( what we do )

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( what Jesus promised believers )

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

….. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-41, 47‬ ‭KJV‬

And inheriting the kingdom ? With Jesus ?

“And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭8:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We enter the kingdom when we enter the body of the king , by his name.

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

…..Peter said , Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized,( water ) which have received the Holy Ghost ( spirit ) as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42-44, 47-48‬ ‭

It’s something believers do not a rule or “requirement “ but an act that we do by faith in Jesus when we believe.

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:35-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

those people now became part of this group

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Pilgrimshope · Tuesday at 9:27 PM

Magenta said:

Yes this is why we share the truth ( the gospel ) so through his word he can work on believers

Magenta · Tuesday at 9:33 PM

Pilgrimshope said:

He works on unbelievers also. Using believers as they did with me...

I wonder how many times I heard the gospel message before I could believe it.

Pilgrimshope · Tuesday at 9:35 PM

Magenta said:

Yep he works on humans even before they hear the gospel and can believe it or disbelieve it and after as well . tbrough others who believe because they have the spirit ect I agree

Cameron143 · Tuesday at 9:41 PM

Pilgrimshope said:

Being born of water and spirit like Jesus and his disciples all were ?

“And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: and there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:19-20‬ ‭

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ( what we do )

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( what Jesus promised believers )

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

….. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-41, 47‬ ‭KJV‬

And inheriting the kingdom ? With Jesus ?

“And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭8:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We enter the kingdom when we enter the body of the king , by his name.

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

…..Peter said , Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized,( water ) which have received the Holy Ghost ( spirit ) as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42-44, 47-48‬ ‭

It’s something believers do not a rule or “requirement “ but an act that we do by faith in Jesus when we believe.

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:35-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

those people now became part of this group

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

By water and the Spirit is a supernatural birth.

Magenta · Tuesday at 9:42 PM

Pilgrimshope said:

I don't know if you ever saw or read any of this thread... (<= link) ... just mentioning it because the 12 step program was quite a large part of my journey... and there are people here who would have us believe that a program that is solidly based on Biblical principles, puts God front and centre, and which is geared toward helping people develop and maintain a personal relationship with God, came from the devil.

People say the darndest things!

keepingthingsreal · Tuesday at 9:49 PM

Here's a thought.

Seeing how the Apostle Paul's words are often (mis-) quoted in defense of Calvinism, why don't we look at Paul's salvation experience and see if it correlates with the Calvinistic means of salvation. Here is the account from two different places in the book of Acts.

Act 9:1
And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2
And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 9:3
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Act 9:7
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Act 9:8
And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Act 9:9
And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
Act 9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
Act 9:11
And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
Act 9:12
And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Act 9:13
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Act 9:14
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
Act 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Act 9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Act 22:12
And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
Act 22:13
Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
Act 22:14
And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
Act 22:15
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Act 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Unless I am hallucinating, it seems to me that Paul got saved and filled with the Holy Ghost by calling on the name of the Lord and being water baptized to wash away his sins. In other words, he wasn't saved by his initial encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus, nor did he receive a new heart and new spirit at that time. How then did regeneration allegedly precede belief? I mean, after his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus, Saul/Paul obviously believed in Jesus, but he was not regenerated until three days later. Am I missing something (other than the Kool-Aid)?

keepingthingsreal · Tuesday at 9:56 PM

Magenta said:

Thanks for being such a good sport. I will try to behave moving forward.

Magenta · Tuesday at 9:58 PM

keepingthingsreal said:

Oh, well I knew it was all a ruse and I was being set up, the purple pen totally gave it away!!!

That and the fact we have no accountant LOL

keepingthingsreal · Tuesday at 10:01 PM

Magenta said:

Yeah, we know what happened to him, don't we? (wink, wink)

Cranberry · Tuesday at 10:05 PM

HeIsHere said:

Those Bible verses answered the question someone posted in this thread.

That's not accurate actually.

Cameron143 · Tuesday at 10:11 PM

keepingthingsreal said:

Here's a thought.

Seeing how the Apostle Paul's words are often (mis-) quoted in defense of Calvinism, why don't we look at Paul's salvation experience and see if it correlates with the Calvinistic means of salvation. Here is the account from two different places in the book of Acts.

Act 9:1
And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2
And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 9:3
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Act 9:7
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Act 9:8
And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Act 9:9
And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
Act 9:10
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
Act 9:11
And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
Act 9:12
And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Act 9:13
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Act 9:14
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
Act 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Act 9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Act 22:12
And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
Act 22:13
Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
Act 22:14
And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
Act 22:15
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Act 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Unless I am hallucinating, it seems to me that Paul got saved and filled with the Holy Ghost by calling on the name of the Lord and being water baptized to wash away his sins. In other words, he wasn't saved by his initial encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus, nor did he receive a new heart and new spirit at that time. How then did regeneration allegedly precede belief? I mean, after his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus, Saul/Paul obviously believed in Jesus, but he was not regenerated until three days later. Am I missing something (other than the Kool-Aid)?

How did he know a man named Ananias was coming? Who told him that? Was it revelation? Was it spoken aloud? Was Paul not saved until he was baptized? At what point did he believe into the Lord Jesus Christ?

cv5 · Tuesday at 10:12 PM

cv5 said:

Jordan River.
Man of God (God Man).
Priceless axhead lost.
The Branch is cast into the river of death starting from Adam.
Axe head made availabe by a miracle.
Command is issued.
Servant obeys command and retrieves that which was lost.
==================================================
All of this profundity, and the hapless Calvinites are trading heresy cards with each other, as the Truth passes them by.

That @Rufus guy still thinks that Adam is a knuckle dragging troglodyte.
He never did get the how Adam is THE preeminent type of Christ.
And neither did ANY Calvinite on this thread. EVER.

How could this be? How could every Calvinite be 100% wrong 100% of the time about everything that is of a primary fundamental biblical matter of importance? You know......like the actual TRUE character of God Himself? Like the actual TRUE nature of salvation?

Well I know. I definitely know.
And my advice is: beware leaven of the Calvinites.

keepingthingsreal · Tuesday at 10:15 PM

Rufus said:

I have already read it dozens (literally) of times. Unlike Calvinists, I have read it in its immediate context, and also in the overall context of Paul's epistles. Here, let's read it together.

Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Did you notice how foreknowledge precedes predestination? Again, in his foreknowledge, God knows who will willfully embrace the gospel message, and he also knows who will willfully reject it. Those who willfully embrace it have been predestinated unto the adoption (Eph. 1:5) or predestinated to receive glorified bodies at Christ's return (Rom. 8:23). You can deny this truth until the cows come home if you want to, but every time the word predestinated is used in scripture, that is what it pertains to in context.

keepingthingsreal · Tuesday at 10:18 PM

Cameron143 said:

He knew because it was revealed to him in prayer. Paul was not saved until he called upon the name of the Lord and was baptized. Did you read the biblical accounts that I cited? Was Luke, while writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, in error?

keepingthingsreal · Tuesday at 10:20 PM

I am done for the night. Lord willing, I will check back in sometime tomorrow. Good night, everyone. Yes, even you, Cameron.

Kroogz · Tuesday at 10:22 PM

cv5 said:

I googled thesaurus and cv5 came up.

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

trog·lo·dyte
/ˈträɡləˌdīt/

noun

(especially in prehistoric times) a person who lived in a cave.
- a hermit.
- a person who is regarded as being deliberately ignorant or old-fashioned.

Cameron143 · Tuesday at 10:36 PM

keepingthingsreal said:

You say whom He foreknows, but you tell what He foreknows. You also leave out Ephesians 1:4. What they are predestined for is fine. But you can't avoid that they were chosen and say you have the context. And they can't be chosen in Christ without their redemption being in view.
Consider something else. You say God chooses based on those who will embrace the gospel. This is in conflict with the idea that salvation is of grace...not of yourself. It also conflicts with the idea that God is not a respecter of persons. Evidently, he does consider someone's actions.

HeIsHere · Tuesday at 10:40 PM

keepingthingsreal said:

I have already read it dozens (literally) of times. Unlike Calvinists, I have read it in its immediate context, and also in the overall context of Paul's epistles. Here, let's read it together.

Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Did you notice how foreknowledge precedes predestination? Again, in his foreknowledge, God knows who will willfully embrace the gospel message, and he also knows who will willfully reject it. Those who willfully embrace it have been predestinated unto the adoption (Eph. 1:5) or predestinated to receive glorified bodies at Christ's return (Rom. 8:23). You can deny this truth until the cows come home if you want to, but every time the word predestinated is used in scripture, that is what it pertains to in context.

Specifically Paul in context is referring to the Old Testament saints.

Cameron143 · Tuesday at 10:46 PM

keepingthingsreal said:

If he knew as a result of prayer then He received revelation. That's interesting because Jesus said He would build His church based on the revelation of the Father of the Son...Matthew 16.
And again, baptismal regeneration would negate salvation by grace.

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