Understanding God’s election

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lrs68

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Rufus said:
No, those verses say what they say. GOD DIRECTS man's ways! But they don't teach that God "forces" anyone. That is your own carnal conclusion and, therefore, a problem of your own making.

Dan 5:23d
But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.
NIV
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Read the verses before and after.

Your one single cherry picked doctrine never includes the whole meaning.
 
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Rufus

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lrs68 said:
God's Will doesn't have to be contingent because man is capable of messing his own life up.
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But your view on foreknowledge absolutely makes God's will contingent upon man's because God must FIRST learn what man is going to do...THEN God reacts! You have it all backwards, as usual.
 
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lrs68

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Rufus said:
Dan 5:23d
But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.
NIV
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Look at this verse.

It would say the same thing even if the person honored God.

2 outcomes possible based upon did the person choose to honor God or choose not to?
 
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Rufus

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lrs68 said:
Read the verses before and after.

Your one single cherry picked doctrine never includes the whole meaning.
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I did. What part of Dan 5:23 can't you understand? To deny that God held the king's ways in his hand, you would also have to deny that God didn't hold his life in his hand either -- or anyone else's life for that matter.
 
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lrs68

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Rufus said:
But your view on foreknowledge absolutely makes God's will contingent upon man's because God must FIRST learn what man is going to do...THEN God reacts! You have it all backwards, as usual.
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No, it's all 💯% based upon God knowing the end from the beginning before a person is born. God already knows if a person will serve Him or reject Him.
 
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Rufus

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lrs68 said:
Look at this verse.

It would say the same thing even if the person honored God.

2 outcomes possible based upon did the person choose to honor God or choose not to?
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The king chose not to because God was going to very shortly remove him from his throne. God raises up kings and sets them down, as he sees fit! And it doesn't have anything to do with their choosing anything.

Don't you remember what Jesus answered Pilate when he boasted of his authority over Jesus?
 
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Rufus

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lrs68 said:
No, it's all 💯% based upon God knowing the end from the beginning before a person is born. God already knows if a person will serve Him or reject Him.
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And the reason God knows the end from the beginning is because he has decreed all things from before the foundation of the world. God is running this world. Not man!
 
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lrs68

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Rufus said:
The king chose not to because God was going to very shortly remove him from his throne. God raises up kings and sets them down, as he sees fit! And it doesn't have anything to do with their choosing anything.

Don't you remember what Jesus answered Pilate when he boasted of his authority over Jesus?
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And those kings who served God were blessed and given long lives. God knows who will serve Him and He rewards them.
 
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lrs68

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Rufus said:
And the reason God knows the end from the beginning is because he has decreed all things from before the foundation of the world. God is running this world. Not man!
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God is running everything but man can live longer, have more, be blessed abundantly should he choose to live for God.

Should man choose to reject God many don't live as long and suffer long illnesses.
 
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Rufus

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lrs68 said:
And those kings who served God were blessed and given long lives. God knows who will serve Him and He rewards them.
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Oh...so he rewarded godly people with kingship, did He? What about all the ungodly kings or rulers or officials God raised up? God determined in eternity who would be rulers in this world and who would never be. As I recall God raised up more than a few UNGODLY rulers in the Land of Canaan!
 
Jackson129

Jackson129

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  • Behold I stand at the door and knock. If ANY man hear my voice and open the door I will come into him and will and supp with him and he with me. Rev 3;20.

If Any--- any human on earth.

If Any man hear my voice and open the door--- we have to open the door.

IMO God's grace is the knock. It is available to all. Man's free will opens the door.

That dosent mean our free will saved us as some think it does. God's grace is the knock. Without it there is no door to knock on. There is no choice to even be made. Man's free will to open the door is part of the equation though.

Though grace (the knock,the door, the choice) we are saved by faith ( us opening the door) and faith by hearing (the Bible being read or preached to anyone in the world)
 
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rogerg

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lrs68 said:
Sadly, the Bible doesn't say that and when the Bible speaks about the Potter and the Clay and hardening of hearts we see God explaining Himself like He said Pharaoh first hardened his own heart and that Esau chose to throw away his birthright.

So we see that God can do anything He wants but when He did things He also explained why He did those things.

So I stand by the words I am posting because God hides nothing from us and some people just want God to be like a Hitler type thing.
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The crux of your error is that in spite of all the Bible tells us about Him - even given all of that - yet you remain spiritually ignorant, unable to acknowledge Christ (alone) as the Savior - He being the one who saves - along with all that accompanies that, but instead believe man is somehow His spiritual equal - that He needs man's approval to save.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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BillyBob said:
This is definitely the smartest thing that you have said today..
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Ezekiel 18 verses 4 plus 32 ~ Behold every soul belongs to me both father and son are mine.The soul who sins is the one who will die. For I take no pleasure in anyone's death, declares the Lord God. So repent and live!
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Jackson129 said:
  • Behold I stand at the door and knock. If ANY man hear my voice and open the door I will come into him and will and supp with him and he with me. Rev 3;20.

If Any--- any human on earth.

If Any man hear my voice and open the door--- we have to open the door.

IMO God's grace is the knock. It is available to all. Man's free will opens the door.

That dosent mean our free will saved us as some think it does. God's grace is the knock. Without it there is no door to knock on. There is no choice to even be made. Man's free will to open the door is part of the equation though.

Though grace (the knock,the door, the choice) we are saved by faith ( us opening the door) and faith by hearing (the Bible being read or preached to anyone in the world)
Click to expand...
This verse is about fellowship, and not salvation. If any man HEAR my voice...

Another way we know it is addressed to saved individuals is because it is addressed to the church.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Cameron143 said:
This verse is about fellowship, and not salvation. If any man HEAR my voice...

Another way we know it is addressed to saved individuals is because it is addressed to the church.
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John 8 verses 43, 47, Acts 13 verse 48, Romans 8 verse 8, John 8 verse 43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.
 
Jackson129

Jackson129

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Cameron143 said:
This verse is about fellowship, and not salvation. If any man HEAR my voice...

Another way we know it is addressed to saved individuals is because it is addressed to the church.
Click to expand...
First off just because you are a member of the church does not mean you are saved. And if it is only addressed to the church then why dosent it say "if someone who is in the church hears my voice and opens the door"
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Jackson129 said:
First off just because you are a member of the church does not mean you are saved. And if it is only addressed to the church then why dosent it say "if someone who is in the church hears my voice and opens the door"
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The 2nd and 3rd chapters of Revelation are addressed to the churches. Jesus quite a number of times says...let he that hath an ear hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
And I never said everyone who is a church member is saved. And if you understand from what is written is to the churches, why would you feel the need to say it again.
A repeated emphasis is placed on hearing in these 2 chapters. Jesus' sheep hear His voice. I haven't seen in scripture another group of whom this is said.
 
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lrs68

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Rufus said:
Oh...so he rewarded godly people with kingship, did He? What about all the ungodly kings or rulers or officials God raised up? God determined in eternity who would be rulers in this world and who would never be. As I recall God raised up more than a few UNGODLY rulers in the Land of Canaan!
Click to expand...
Ungodly people are necessary whenever Godly people begin making serious errors.

Look at the times God's people were enslaved or under diress because they worshipped idols and forgot their first love.
 
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lrs68

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rogerg said:
The crux of your error is that in spite of all the Bible tells us about Him - even given all of that - yet you remain spiritually ignorant, unable to acknowledge Christ (alone) as the Savior - He being the one who saves - along with all that accompanies that, but instead believe man is somehow His spiritual equal - that He needs man's approval to save.
Click to expand...
I never said God needs man. I said God knows what man is going to do. Your error is not paying attention and why your Biblical explanations don't match Scripture.
 
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