Understanding God’s election

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Jul 3, 2015
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John 8 verses 43, 47, Acts 13 verse 48, Romans 8 verse 8, John 8 verse 43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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66 books isn't enough, apparently, and so all the extra :rolleyes:
Speaking of extra, I want to take it back to the 66 books and their correlation to the Word of God. It occurred to me that the number of OT books corresponds to the stripes applied to Jesus, and the 27 books of the NT immediately brings to my mind Psalm 27, a psalm that is regarded as encapsulating all the holy feasts and so encompasses all the aspects of Jesus.
The lord is my light (creation; new year) and my salvation (passover?)...my strong tower(sukkot)
 

lrs68

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2024
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If God was irresistible then 100% of the people the Bible shows that He manifests Himself to them so they know He exists would follow Him.

The young rich man would have given his money away and became a Disciple.

Thankfully God manifested Himself to low life degenerates [myself] like we read in the Bible that was tired of the way they were living and God showed us a better path to travel.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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Studier just performed for you the FWer Tap Dance.
Dancing was fun when it involved whiskey, but that was quite some time ago.

At this point it's just a lack of desire to work to elaborate on what's clear enough to easily comprehend with a little effort.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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If God was irresistible then 100% of the people the Bible shows that He manifests Himself to them so they know He exists would follow Him.

The young rich man would have given his money away and became a Disciple.

Thankfully God manifested Himself to low life degenerates [myself] like we read in the Bible that was tired of the way they were living and God showed us a better path to travel.
Nonsense! God bestows His sovereign grace, mercy and compassion on whom HE WISHES, which aren't all people w/o exception!
 

lrs68

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2024
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Nonsense! God bestows His sovereign grace, mercy and compassion on whom HE WISHES, which aren't all people w/o exception!
God is Sovereign to His Own Standards He doesn't care what you think that Standard should be.

He is Sovereign because Sovereign means He is, not what you think it means.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Dancing was fun when it involved whiskey, but that was quite some time ago.

At this point it's just a lack of desire to work to elaborate on what's clear enough to easily comprehend with a little effort.
Reminds me of the plethora of verses that very plainly contradict what free willers promote, but they prefer their traditions of man and false doctrine to what is plainly spoken, as evidenced by how often they either ignore or outright deny what's easy enough to comprehend with very little effort.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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Except when you're not! I know I chose to repent and believe the gospel while simultaneously knowing and believing I made that choice entirely by the power of God's grace. Neither the Father, the Son or the Holy Ghost chose to believe for me! But God in eternity did decree that *I* would choose to believe and repent. Therefore, my will was in alignment with God's!
You've missed or ignored my post #13,772 so I'll ask this: is your view of choice consistent with Calvin's?
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Dancing was fun when it involved whiskey, but that was quite some time ago.

At this point it's just a lack of desire to work to elaborate on what's clear enough to easily comprehend with a little effort.
Are you saying that sobriety doesn't agree with you?
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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I've reformatted your post to draw out each statement.

This is probably one of the more succinct statements you've made in 689 pages now. I side note that it's on page 666. Apart from all the bs, the debates on this thread could probably be dealt with from this one post.

Can you explain the two bolded parts? Without your normal trash-talk would be appreciated.
What is it precisely, Mr. Studier, do you want explained to you? The biblical doctrine of Compatibilism? Election? Effectual Grace? What? What don't you understand about the parts you bolded?
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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Since this is more of a philosophical discussion than theological, why so harsh on Free Will when Compatibilism essentially attempts to reconcile Free Will with Determinism?

Since Free Will and Determinism and Compatibilism are all Philosophical issues with many variations, why so firm a stance on any of them apart from identifying and fully explaining your favored version and acknowledging that you're just going with the flow as in most traditions?

The problem with many of the views here in the forum is that the work from Scripture is lacking in favor of simplistic proof-texting. Moreso these are discussions and arguments from philosophies and theological traditions.

Today is an AI (CoPilot) day for a break in reading or participating in harsh bantering among siblings to whatever degree and it's interesting to see what info it compiles from the minds of men:

Determinism is the philosophical view that all events, including human actions, are causally inevitable. It suggests that everything happens due to prior causes, meaning that free will may be an illusion.

Types of Determinism

There are several types of determinism, each focusing on different aspects of causality:
  1. Causal Determinism – The idea that every event is necessitated by previous events and the laws of nature.
  2. Logical Determinism – Claims that the truth of future events is already fixed, meaning that the future is predetermined.
  3. Theological Determinism – Argues that God’s divine will determines all events, including human choices.
  4. Biological Determinism – Suggests that genetics and biological factors predetermine human behavior.
  5. Psychological Determinism – States that human actions are determined by past experiences, conditioning, and mental states.
  6. Economic Determinism – Proposes that economic forces shape human decisions and societal structures.
  7. Nomological Determinism – Holds that natural laws govern all events, making them inevitable.
  8. Fatalism – A more extreme version, arguing that no matter what choices people make, their fate is sealed.
Determinism is often contrasted with indeterminism, which suggests that some events occur randomly or by chance.


Compatibilism is the philosophical view that free will and determinism can coexist without contradiction. It argues that even if all events, including human decisions, are determined by prior causes, people can still make meaningful choices.

Types of Compatibilism

There are several variations of compatibilism, each offering a different way to reconcile free will with determinism:
  1. Classical Compatibilism – Rooted in the ideas of David Hume and Thomas Hobbes, it defines free will as the ability to act without external constraints.
  2. Modern Compatibilism – Developed by philosophers like Harry Frankfurt, it introduces the concept of higher-order volitions, where people act freely when their desires align with their deeper values.
  3. Semi-Compatibilism – Proposed by John Martin Fischer, it argues that moral responsibility can exist even if free will does not.
  4. Theological Compatibilism – Found in Calvinist theology, where God's sovereignty and human responsibility coexist, affirming predestination while maintaining voluntary choices.
Each type of compatibilism offers a unique perspective on how free will and determinism interact.


Free will is the ability of individuals to make choices that are not entirely determined by external forces, prior causes, or divine predestination. It is a central concept in philosophy, psychology, and theology, often debated in relation to determinism.

Types of Free Will

There are several perspectives on free will, each offering different interpretations:
  1. Libertarian Free Will – Asserts that human choices are not determined by prior causes, allowing for true autonomy.
  2. Compatibilist Free Will – Holds that free will and determinism can coexist, meaning choices are voluntary but still influenced by prior causes.
  3. Theological Free Will – Found in religious traditions, where free will is seen as God-given, allowing individuals to choose faith or reject it.
  4. Scientific Free Will – Examines free will through neuroscience and psychology, questioning whether human decisions are truly independent.
  5. Political Free Will – Explores free will in the context of social structures, laws, and personal freedoms.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Since this is more of a philosophical discussion than theological
Well, the position of "free will" in the natural man is false man-centred philosophy.

On the other hand, being set free by Christ is Biblical.


"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5 verse 13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5 verse 1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6 verses 6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3 verse 17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8 verse 36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
4,564
592
113
Since this is more of a philosophical discussion than theological, why so harsh on Free Will when Compatibilism essentially attempts to reconcile Free Will with Determinism?

Since Free Will and Determinism and Compatibilism are all Philosophical issues with many variations, why so firm a stance on any of them apart from identifying and fully explaining your favored version and acknowledging that you're just going with the flow as in most traditions?

The problem with many of the views here in the forum is that the work from Scripture is lacking in favor of simplistic proof-texting. Moreso these are discussions and arguments from philosophies and theological traditions.

Today is an AI (CoPilot) day for a break in reading or participating in harsh bantering among siblings to whatever degree and it's interesting to see what info it compiles from the minds of men:

Determinism is the philosophical view that all events, including human actions, are causally inevitable. It suggests that everything happens due to prior causes, meaning that free will may be an illusion.

Types of Determinism

There are several types of determinism, each focusing on different aspects of causality:
  1. Causal Determinism – The idea that every event is necessitated by previous events and the laws of nature.
  2. Logical Determinism – Claims that the truth of future events is already fixed, meaning that the future is predetermined.
  3. Theological Determinism – Argues that God’s divine will determines all events, including human choices.
  4. Biological Determinism – Suggests that genetics and biological factors predetermine human behavior.
  5. Psychological Determinism – States that human actions are determined by past experiences, conditioning, and mental states.
  6. Economic Determinism – Proposes that economic forces shape human decisions and societal structures.
  7. Nomological Determinism – Holds that natural laws govern all events, making them inevitable.
  8. Fatalism – A more extreme version, arguing that no matter what choices people make, their fate is sealed.
Determinism is often contrasted with indeterminism, which suggests that some events occur randomly or by chance.


Compatibilism is the philosophical view that free will and determinism can coexist without contradiction. It argues that even if all events, including human decisions, are determined by prior causes, people can still make meaningful choices.

Types of Compatibilism

There are several variations of compatibilism, each offering a different way to reconcile free will with determinism:
  1. Classical Compatibilism – Rooted in the ideas of David Hume and Thomas Hobbes, it defines free will as the ability to act without external constraints.
  2. Modern Compatibilism – Developed by philosophers like Harry Frankfurt, it introduces the concept of higher-order volitions, where people act freely when their desires align with their deeper values.
  3. Semi-Compatibilism – Proposed by John Martin Fischer, it argues that moral responsibility can exist even if free will does not.
  4. Theological Compatibilism – Found in Calvinist theology, where God's sovereignty and human responsibility coexist, affirming predestination while maintaining voluntary choices.
Each type of compatibilism offers a unique perspective on how free will and determinism interact.


Free will is the ability of individuals to make choices that are not entirely determined by external forces, prior causes, or divine predestination. It is a central concept in philosophy, psychology, and theology, often debated in relation to determinism.

Types of Free Will

There are several perspectives on free will, each offering different interpretations:
  1. Libertarian Free Will – Asserts that human choices are not determined by prior causes, allowing for true autonomy.
  2. Compatibilist Free Will – Holds that free will and determinism can coexist, meaning choices are voluntary but still influenced by prior causes.
  3. Theological Free Will – Found in religious traditions, where free will is seen as God-given, allowing individuals to choose faith or reject it.
  4. Scientific Free Will – Examines free will through neuroscience and psychology, questioning whether human decisions are truly independent.
  5. Political Free Will – Explores free will in the context of social structures, laws, and personal freedoms.
Mankind lost its "God-given Free Will" when Adam fell. It's impossible for enslaved sinners with depraved hearts to have a volition that is able to choose contrary to its sinful nature.