Understanding God’s election

[HeIsHere]

That's a lot of writing. But if I have time later I will outline the book for you.

It's all good.
I just get sad, cause your eschatology is good, just trying to pry you loose from the soteriology you hold, miracles do happen!

 

[HeIsHere]

Based upon what I recall re: your beliefs, what are your thoughts re: why God has not changed their hearts so they can believe?

Can you see things in their lives or thinking that seem to make some sense out of why they don't believe? IOW, you seem close to them, so you must have some sense or thoughts about their thinking - maybe even knowledge by their explaining it to you.

Are you concerned that God won't change their hearts?

As I recall, it's not an election issue for you, so this isn't a question as to whether or not they're elect per the Calvinist view, correct?

Good questions.

 

[Cameron143]

Based upon what I recall re: your beliefs, what are your thoughts re: why God has not changed their hearts so they can believe?

Can you see things in their lives or thinking that seem to make some sense out of why they don't believe? IOW, you seem close to them, so you must have some sense or thoughts about their thinking - maybe even knowledge by their explaining it to you.

Are you concerned that God won't change their hearts?

As I recall, it's not an election issue for you, so this isn't a question as to whether or not they're elect per the Calvinist view, correct?

My views on election are not that God "selects" as some propose. Rather, that God chose a people for Himself before creation itself. He doesn't select between different people. He chose before any came to be. I believe the parable of the wheat and tares reflects this well. God planted wheat. Satan planted tares. God is only harvesting wheat.
As a father, I have a long list of concerns for my children. As you may imagine, much of the time I spend in intecessory prayer is for them. But unlike many, I enjoy the fact that God is sovereign. It provides me great amounts of both peace and joy. And I believe that the judge of all the earth will always do right. So I've learned to be content with the way God conducts His purposes. Would I rather that God saved them currently or in my lifetime: sure. But God has His purposes in all that He does. He saves on His timetable to fulfill His good pleasure. And truly, the care of my children's ultimate destiny is far better left with God than me.
You make a good point about removing obstacles in children's lives that hinder their belief, whether they be in their understanding or circumstances. But if you believe salvation occurs when God approaches men and not the converse, who can keep God from coming to an individual. So I look for God to be at work and join Him in what He is doing. I look for times when their hearts are open and their minds are engaged. And I have seen markers in all my kids lives where God is working and revealing Himself to them.

 

[Cameron143]

It's all good.
I just get sad, cause your eschatology is good, just trying to pry you loose from the soteriology you hold, miracles do happen!

I've seen as many miracles as you have, if not considerably more. I'm not the one who doesn't believe in revelation. This is just more misunderstanding on your part as to what I actually believe and have experienced. For someone who believes that others live in small boxes you own alot of cardboard.

 

[Rufus]

You just ignored the beginning like I said tying the Verses together.

24 The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 neither is he served by men’s hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 and he made of one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed seasons, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 that they should seek God, if haply they might feel after him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us:

Learn the difference alreadyh between "should" (denoting responsibility) and "would" (denoting a willful act). There's nothing in the passage that speaks to man's spiritual innate ability.

 

[HeIsHere]

I've seen as many miracles as you have, if not considerably more. I'm not the one who doesn't believe in revelation. This is just more misunderstanding on your part as to what I actually believe and have experienced. For someone who believes that others live in small boxes you own alot of cardboard.

You have explained you soteriology many times and it always comes back to .........

you do not know/understand what I believe, a well known line by the way in your soteriology group,

and also btw .... it is actually "a lot" .. two words, been meaning to tell you for a while.
I rush and make typos but this is one thing I do know.

 

[Rufus]

IMO @lrs68 has a good point about the chronology of the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. When YHWH says He will harden Pharaoh's heart He doesn't say He will start the process, He simply says He will do it. All YHWH could well be saying is that it will be done and from there the process is up to Him as the One who makes promises and searches hearts.

Chronology and sequence are largely a western concept of thinking. It's well known in the scholarly realm that there are structures and sequencing especially in OC Hebrew that are not simple to track.

Pure nonsense. The narrative's chronology tells us which came first: God's hardening or Pharaohs'. Not only does the chronology of the passage tell us but the dictates of logic also inform our interpretation. Why would God want or need to harden Pharaoh's heart if the king was going to oblige God by doing it for Him!?

 

[Rufus]

How depressing that you are doing just as God desires you to with your children! Shame on you.

Raising your children in the way they should go. Harumph!

^ The attitude of these free willers is appalling.

All of which proves that Cam takes his God-ordained responsibility quite seriously.

 

[Cameron143]

You have explained you soteriology many times and it always comes back to .........

you do not know/understand what I believe, a well known line by the way in your soteriology group,

and also btw .... it is actually "a lot" .. two words, been meaning to tell you for a while.
I rush and make typos but this is one thing I do know.

You should apply for a job at spellcheck.

And you don't understand the reformed reason on soteriology. It is evident from your posts, as it is with many. Your use of the word...selection...is simply one example.

 

[Rufus]

My views on election are not that God "selects" as some propose. Rather, that God chose a people for Himself before creation itself. He doesn't select between different people. He chose before any came to be. I believe the parable of the wheat and tares reflects this well. God planted wheat. Satan planted tares. God is only harvesting wheat.
As a father, I have a long list of concerns for my children. As you may imagine, much of the time I spend in intecessory prayer is for them. But unlike many, I enjoy the fact that God is sovereign. It provides me great amounts of both peace and joy. And I believe that the judge of all the earth will always do right. So I've learned to be content with the way God conducts His purposes. Would I rather that God saved them currently or in my lifetime: sure. But God has His purposes in all that He does. He saves on His timetable to fulfill His good pleasure. And truly, the care of my children's ultimate destiny is far better left with God than me.
You make a good point about removing obstacles in children's lives that hinder their belief, whether they be in their understanding or circumstances. But if you believe salvation occurs when God approaches men and not the converse, who can keep God from coming to an individual. So I look for God to be at work and join Him in what He is doing. I look for times when their hearts are open and their minds are engaged. And I have seen markers in all my kids lives where God is working and revealing Himself to them.

AMEN, Brother! Excellent post!

 

[lrs68]

Learn the difference alreadyh between "should" (denoting responsibility) and "would" (denoting a willful act). There's nothing in the passage that speaks to man's spiritual innate ability.

It's not about spiritual It's about how God created man. You only ignore because you think this is spiritual but it's not.

 

[Cameron143]

All of which proves that Cam takes his God-ordained responsibility quite seriously.

When I became a father I was quite concerned. When I looked to the Bible for godly men raising godly children, I was surprised that notable biblical figures were very often poor fathers. I could cite many instances, but the point is I wasn't really prepared to be a good father. I spent much time in prayer and in God's company learning how to be a good father. My thanks for the affirmation.

 

[Rufus]

Election is to WHOM God foreknew...
Romans 8:29. Again, words are important.

The only words that important to FWers are those they add to scripture.

 

[Rufus]

It's not about spiritual It's about how God created man. You only ignore because you think this is spiritual but it's not.

God created man "very good". But now...after the Fall, man has become very evil.

And if seeking God is not spiritual activity, then what is it? In your world, it would be satanic? Earthly? Worldly?

 

[lrs68]

Pure nonsense. The narrative's chronology tells us which came first: God's hardening or Pharaohs'. Not only does the chronology of the passage tell us but the dictates of logic also inform our interpretation. Why would God want or need to harden Pharaoh's heart if the king was going to oblige God by doing it for Him!?

You must be a legend in your own mind when we know detail for detail and there's literally no room for assumptions.

 

[lrs68]

God created man "very good". But now...after the Fall, man has become very evil.

And if seeking God is not spiritual activity, then what is it? In your world, it would be satanic? Earthly? Worldly?

And the Fall was always in God's Plan which you deny as if it happened without God knowing beforehand.

 

[Rufus]

Kroogz said:


Forget Trump.

We can say yes or no.......The Holy Spirit never stops convicting/ convincing us of our sin.

You tell your home schooled kids this stuff?....."God might save you kids, You are totally depraved and will never have a choice. The Holy Spirit might convict you tomorrow or may never convict you."

Well...if that's truly the case, the Holy Spirit is doing a pitiful, pathetic job since most in the world freely choose to die in those very sins of which the Holy Spirit convicted them. Maybe this accounts for why Jesus didn't pray for each and every person in the world in John 17! Jesus knew that the Holy Spirit's hands would be tied and that the Spirit's will would easily be thwarted by puny, weak, helpless, fallible, finite creatures like man.

 

[Rufus]

You must be a legend in your own mind when we know detail for detail and there's literally no room for assumptions.

Why didn't you answer my question? Is it because you have no rational answer? Maybe God didn't raise Pharaoh up after all to demonstrate HIS power in this pagan king! Maybe Pharaoh raised himself up???

 

[lrs68]

Why didn't you answer my question? Is it because you have no rational answer? Maybe God didn't raise Pharaoh up after all to demonstrate HIS power in this pagan king! Maybe Pharaoh raised himself up???

God used Pharaoh and the position and idealism behind what Egypt and Pharaoh meant to the known world to show how powerful God was. But Pharaoh still hardened his own heart before God permanently did it.

 

[Kroogz]

This is your personal bias. I never said my children would be saved, or that I know for sure they will be.

@Cameron143 Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. My Children know this to the point that they say, "Quit it dad!"

I DO NOT believe that "some" of my children can't hear and believe this Message.

He convicts/convinces the WORLD of their sin.......And I have the privilege to HELP.