Hi to everyone here. I would like to reach out to those here who have an interest in learning about how to successfully bring Christians and Jews back together under the name of Jesus. There is much to say but if you are interested, please email me at [email protected] or message me here but email is best. Thank you. Hopefully we can all be successful in doing this before Jesus returns as Jesus loves the whole world and every person.
Uniting Christians and Jews Together Idea
- Thread starter Mikael156
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THE STATUS OF JEWS
Per Jesus
MT 7:21: Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
MT 8:11: I say to you that many will come from the east and the west and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
MT 10:32: Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven, but whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
MT 11:6&13-14: Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me… For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, and if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
MT 13:14-15: This people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and I would heal them.
MT 21:43: I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
MT 23:37: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you! How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
MT 28:18-19a: All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations…
JN 6:40: My Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
JN 8:42, 44&56: If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own, but he sent me… You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him… Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.
JN 10:16: I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
JN 12:48a & 49b: There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words… for the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
JN 16:1-2: All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. They will put you out of the synagogue. In fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.
THE STATUS OF JEWS
Per Paul
RM 1:1-5: Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus… Through him we received apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. (All passages may be condensed.)
RM 2:1-11, 23-29: God will give to each person according to what he has done… There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, first for the Jew, then for the Gentile, but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good, first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.
RM 2:23-29: You (Jews) who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? As it is written, “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”… A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart.
RM 3:1-9: What advantage then is there in being a Jew?… First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God… What shall we conclude then? Are we (Jews) any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
RM 3:20-30: Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his (God’s) sight by observing the law; rather through the law we become conscious of sin… Where then is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
RM 4:16-18: Therefore the promise (salvation) comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all of Abraham’s offspring–not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations.”
RM 9:1-16: I speak the truth in Christ… I could wish myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel… From them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. It is not as though God’s word had failed, for not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children… It is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
RM 9:23-24 & 30-33: What if he (God) did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory–even us whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?… What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone”. As it is written, “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, but the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”
RM 10:1&12-13: Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved… For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile–the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
RM 11:1&7-8: …Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham… What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened.
RM 11:11-32: Because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! I am talking to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles. I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them… You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I may be grafted in.” Granted, but they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant… Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in again… Israel has experienced hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved… For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
RM 15:15-16: God gave me (grace) to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
1CR 1:22-24: Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks (Gentiles) look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified–a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ (is) the power of God and the wisdom of God.
EPH 2:11-22: Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)–remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood (death) of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.
His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross… Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
EPH 3:1-11: For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles–Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation… that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus…
This grace was given to me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
TIT 1:10-14: There are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group (Jews). They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach… Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth.
HB 3:3-6: Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself… Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house, testifying to what would be said in the future, but Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. (See HB 7:18-19,22&27; 8:6-8,13; 9:1,10,15,26b-28; 10:1&9b.)
A hindrance when trying to reach the Jews is the belief in a trinity,
The Jews do not believe in a trinity but one God the Father.
It is hard to convince them Christianity is true because of the belief in a trinity that they reject.
They will look at it as thou shalt have no other gods besides me and your religion false.
I will not debate a trinity or not.
The Jews are only told one God the Father in the Old Testament.
God did not rebuke them for this.
If there a trinity why would God the Father tell them He is the only God.
Yes, the OT Shema (Deut. 6:4) teaches that God is one, and the NT also affirms that there is one God (Eph. 4:6, 1Tim. 2:5). However, the NT teaches that God relates to believers in three ways simultaneously: as the Father, as the Son and as the Holy Spirit (1 x 1 x 1=1).
The Father/Parenthood of God is indicated in Jesus’ model prayer (Matt. 6:9), throughout the Gospel of John (John 3:35, 5:17-18, etc.), and in the epistles of Paul (Rom. 4:11, 8:15, Phil. 2:11). God the Father and Christ’s Sonship are discussed in Hebrews 1:1-4. The Son of God also is mentioned by John (John 1:14, 3:16, etc.) and by Paul (Rom. 1:4, Gal. 2:20, 1Thes. 1:10). The Holy Spirit is mentioned in three successive chapters in John (John 14:26, 15:26, 16:13), frequently in the book of Acts (Acts 1:5, 2:4, 9:17, 13:2, 19:2), and in many of Paul’s letters (Rom. 8:4-26, 1Cor. 6:19, Eph. 4:30) as well as in some of the other epistles (2Pet. 1:21, Jude 20).
It might be helpful to discern which aspect of the triune God is the subject of various biblical statements. God's divine aspects or “persons” may be distinguished by role: God the Father as creator or initiator (Gen. 1:1), God the Son as Messiah or mediator (1Tim. 2:5), and God the Spirit as indweller (Rom. 5:5). For example, 1 John 4:7 says love comes from (is initiated by) God (the Father), Galatians 5:22 says that love is a fruit of the (indwelling) Spirit, and Ephesians 3:18 speaks of the (mediating) love of Christ (Rom. 5:8, Eph. 2:18).
We can denote these distinctions by the use of three prepositions: God the Father is over all creation (Eph. 4:6), God the Son is Immanuel or with humanity (Matt. 1:23), and the Holy Spirit is within all believers (Eph. 1:13). A single passage that comes closest to indicating this distinction is Ephesians 3:14-19, in which Paul prays to the Father that through His Spirit of love Christ would dwell in believers’ hearts (also see 1Cor. 8:6).
You actually expect the Jews to believe Jesus is the Messiah after 2,000+ years of them not believing it? Their forefathers got the Romans to execute him.
The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah.
Well, in Romans 11 Paul expressed hope that he could convert a remnant of Israel,
and 2Peter 3:8 says that 2,000 years is like two days with the Lord,
but it is our sins that crucified Jesus (Isa. 53:6).
Jews or Messianic Jews? With all the denominalization, it seems we have a task to even get Christians in unity.
Hi studier, it is a pleasure to hear from you. For Christians, it is a unity in Jesus but how so? Each individual must learn to deny himself, which is deny his own self righteousness, his own desires, his creative ways of trying to bend his moral behaviour etc. These people who deny themselves and live a humble life, will merit to have Jesus work through him, just as Jesus overcame his trials in the wilderness and merited further growth in G-d. (This is a simple summary)
Messianic "Christians" have the right idea in trying to further understand Jesus from a Jewish perspective and what the Torah really means, however their theological pride in believing that since they understand the Bible better than Christians, therefore are more righteous is completely blinding them and even costs them much more than they gain (i.e. losing communal structure, accountability, love in Jesus etc). They need to realize that they have come to a better truth but that doesn't make them any better than a Christian or an Indian for that matter.
For Jews, major piece in a vast undertaking, is that Jews would better accept Jesus when he they see Christians both uniting, standing behind Righteous Principles and not necessarily living but agreeing that Jesus perfectly fits well with Torah and Judaism and not that G-d has replaced His Own giving of the Torah and its perfect Laws (that G-d gave) for a hypergrace movement.
However all of this sums down to man's daily war with himself and his own temptations. For the only reason why man struggles with anything mentioned above, is because he will have to deny himself and his wants and to serve G-d and be humble...the fall of man since Adam and Eve.
@Mikael156
If only it was so simple.
Christian denominations are extensive, and the tribal allegiances and battles are astounding.
Then, I've watched the Jews for Jesus become the Messianic movement and grow and also become tribal.
My best congregational experience was decades ago for a few years in a small Messianic congregation led by a very gentle and knowledgeable Messianic Rabbi. The meetings and teachings and Holy Days were wonderful, bringing life to the Text. At times the NC understanding seemed a bit off, but the heart was as it seemed it should be.
Hard core exegetical teaching and seminary training in mainly Greek took me where I wanted to be in dealing with the Text technically. Hebrew instruction never accomplished, only in part.
FWIW, I kept up on some Messianic based works and writings for decades until not too long ago. In them IMO were errors not unlike the Gentile based theologies.
I don't think any groups have a lock on the Truth.
These forums evidence how far off-base is the greater "body" and IMO reveal an infiltration of the Body by those who disrupt it. Also disruptive are the immature. Whether it be Messianic or Gentile based theologies, there inevitably seems to be error as well as some arrogance.
It's a big battle, Mikael. If any one person or group has a lock on the Truth, I've prayed to know it for decades and was willing to travel and live in the locale and attend. Still am to some degree.
If only it was so simple.
Christian denominations are extensive, and the tribal allegiances and battles are astounding.
Then, I've watched the Jews for Jesus become the Messianic movement and grow and also become tribal.
My best congregational experience was decades ago for a few years in a small Messianic congregation led by a very gentle and knowledgeable Messianic Rabbi. The meetings and teachings and Holy Days were wonderful, bringing life to the Text. At times the NC understanding seemed a bit off, but the heart was as it seemed it should be.
Hard core exegetical teaching and seminary training in mainly Greek took me where I wanted to be in dealing with the Text technically. Hebrew instruction never accomplished, only in part.
FWIW, I kept up on some Messianic based works and writings for decades until not too long ago. In them IMO were errors not unlike the Gentile based theologies.
I don't think any groups have a lock on the Truth.
These forums evidence how far off-base is the greater "body" and IMO reveal an infiltration of the Body by those who disrupt it. Also disruptive are the immature. Whether it be Messianic or Gentile based theologies, there inevitably seems to be error as well as some arrogance.
It's a big battle, Mikael. If any one person or group has a lock on the Truth, I've prayed to know it for decades and was willing to travel and live in the locale and attend. Still am to some degree.
Wow you really have explored this situation in depth. I would like to discuss more if you'd like? You can contact me at [email protected] or let me know how I can contact you. I have quite a bit to share and you may be very interested.
Just wondering why you came into the Israel chat and warned against Israel today. Saying it was evil.
Seems to be something strange here. You talking about unity then speaking against today's Israel.
Can you clarify please?
Seems to be something strange here. You talking about unity then speaking against today's Israel.
Can you clarify please?
Good question and thanks for letting me explain:
Zionist and Zionism is very evil and they are Atheists. 100% against G-d and completely admit it. But as for united with Believers (in all various groups) and Jews its important.
GOD’S PEACE PLAN: How to Harmonize Monotheism
Christianity is God’s bridge uniting monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc.) rather than a wall separating them. This truth is derived from a statement by the apostle Paul (in 1Tim. 2:3-4) indicating that Yahweh/God/Allah loves all people and wants everyone to love each other as one happy spiritual family or fellowship, and He is grieved when people who claim to believe in Him quarrel (Ephesians 4:30-31).
When Judaism was reformed by Jesus and his apostles, Paul taught (in Rom. 2:28-29, 4:16-17 & Gal. 3:29) that what matters is not the religion of our parents, but whether each of us has faith like Abraham in the one true God. A spiritual Jew loves God (Deut. 6:4-5), a true Christian loves God and humanity (Matt. 22:37-40), and a genuine Muslim serves God by cooperating with His plan of salvation (Matt. 24:45 & 25:21). Theists can be Jewish, Christian and Muslim, because Christianity is God’s solution/plan for peace in the world (Eph. 2:11-22).
The purpose of Judaism was to provide the heritage for Messiah for the benefit of all people (Rom. 3:21-31, 9:4-5a, Isa. 42:1-6, Gen. 22:18, Deut. 9:5-6), and the intent of Islam (stated by the Qur’an in Surah 2:89) was “confirming” God’s previous revelations to the Jews and Christians (the OT & NT). When Jews became Messianic, Paul and Peter agreed that they could follow the old Jewish customs that did not contradict faith in Jesus as Lord (Acts 15:5-29 & Gal. 2:15-16). Because everything good and true is from God (Jam. 1:27), accepting Jesus as Messiah does not mean rejecting what is good and true in one’s pre-Christian experience or culture.
However, the relationship between Jesus, Moses and Mohammed needs to be harmonized. Paul wrote (in 1Tim. 2:5): “For there is one God and one mediator between God and humanity, the man Christ [Messiah] Jesus.” This verse clearly indicates that the Christian concept known as the Trinity should not be understood as contradicting faith in one God. Similarly, calling Messiah “God’s Son” should not be understood as contradicting the humanity of Jesus (Heb. 2:17), the one God ordained to die unjustly as payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity. God relates to humanity in three primary ways: as the Creator or Father over all, as the Holy Spirit (cf. Surah 2:87) within believers, and as the human Messiah/Jesus with humanity (Immanuel in Matt. 1:23).
Thus, Muslims–like Jews–may accept Jesus as Messiah with the understanding that the Mosaic laws Islamic five pillars do not contradict the Christian gospel of salvation. In the OT God established a covenant with Abraham (Gen. 15:18, 17:2) by which “all nations on earth will be blessed” (Gen. 8:18), Jeremiah revealed that the Mosaic covenant would be superseded by a new covenant (Jer. 31:31, cf. Heb. 7:18-10:1), and Isaiah associated the new covenant with Messiah, “my chosen one”, who would also be “a light for the Gentiles” (Isa. 42:1,6&9, 49:5-6&8, 59:20-60:3, 61:1 & 62:2&11). God’s “chosen people” potentially includes everyone in the world who satisfies His requirement for salvation by seeking truth and finding Messiah (Eph. 2:11-3:6, Rom. 10:1-11:32). [Whether or not the physical nation of Israel will play some political role before the end/eschaton is another issue.]
In Eph. 3:1-6, note that world peace through the gospel of Christ was a “mystery” until Paul received a divine revelation. As Paul wrote in 1Cor. 2:7-8, “We speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” Thus, although with hindsight we can see how Old Testament scriptures foreshadowed Christ, we should not expect that they specifically prophesied the gospel (although Isaiah 53 is quite impressive). In summary, the evidence of accepting God’s will and cooperating with Him is manifesting love for everyone including enemies, which is the opposite of that held by those claiming to believe in God/Allah who are grieving Him by terrorizing humanity.
Christianity is God’s bridge uniting monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc.) rather than a wall separating them. This truth is derived from a statement by the apostle Paul (in 1Tim. 2:3-4) indicating that Yahweh/God/Allah loves all people and wants everyone to love each other as one happy spiritual family or fellowship, and He is grieved when people who claim to believe in Him quarrel (Ephesians 4:30-31).
When Judaism was reformed by Jesus and his apostles, Paul taught (in Rom. 2:28-29, 4:16-17 & Gal. 3:29) that what matters is not the religion of our parents, but whether each of us has faith like Abraham in the one true God. A spiritual Jew loves God (Deut. 6:4-5), a true Christian loves God and humanity (Matt. 22:37-40), and a genuine Muslim serves God by cooperating with His plan of salvation (Matt. 24:45 & 25:21). Theists can be Jewish, Christian and Muslim, because Christianity is God’s solution/plan for peace in the world (Eph. 2:11-22).
The purpose of Judaism was to provide the heritage for Messiah for the benefit of all people (Rom. 3:21-31, 9:4-5a, Isa. 42:1-6, Gen. 22:18, Deut. 9:5-6), and the intent of Islam (stated by the Qur’an in Surah 2:89) was “confirming” God’s previous revelations to the Jews and Christians (the OT & NT). When Jews became Messianic, Paul and Peter agreed that they could follow the old Jewish customs that did not contradict faith in Jesus as Lord (Acts 15:5-29 & Gal. 2:15-16). Because everything good and true is from God (Jam. 1:27), accepting Jesus as Messiah does not mean rejecting what is good and true in one’s pre-Christian experience or culture.
However, the relationship between Jesus, Moses and Mohammed needs to be harmonized. Paul wrote (in 1Tim. 2:5): “For there is one God and one mediator between God and humanity, the man Christ [Messiah] Jesus.” This verse clearly indicates that the Christian concept known as the Trinity should not be understood as contradicting faith in one God. Similarly, calling Messiah “God’s Son” should not be understood as contradicting the humanity of Jesus (Heb. 2:17), the one God ordained to die unjustly as payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity. God relates to humanity in three primary ways: as the Creator or Father over all, as the Holy Spirit (cf. Surah 2:87) within believers, and as the human Messiah/Jesus with humanity (Immanuel in Matt. 1:23).
Thus, Muslims–like Jews–may accept Jesus as Messiah with the understanding that the Mosaic laws Islamic five pillars do not contradict the Christian gospel of salvation. In the OT God established a covenant with Abraham (Gen. 15:18, 17:2) by which “all nations on earth will be blessed” (Gen. 8:18), Jeremiah revealed that the Mosaic covenant would be superseded by a new covenant (Jer. 31:31, cf. Heb. 7:18-10:1), and Isaiah associated the new covenant with Messiah, “my chosen one”, who would also be “a light for the Gentiles” (Isa. 42:1,6&9, 49:5-6&8, 59:20-60:3, 61:1 & 62:2&11). God’s “chosen people” potentially includes everyone in the world who satisfies His requirement for salvation by seeking truth and finding Messiah (Eph. 2:11-3:6, Rom. 10:1-11:32). [Whether or not the physical nation of Israel will play some political role before the end/eschaton is another issue.]
In Eph. 3:1-6, note that world peace through the gospel of Christ was a “mystery” until Paul received a divine revelation. As Paul wrote in 1Cor. 2:7-8, “We speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” Thus, although with hindsight we can see how Old Testament scriptures foreshadowed Christ, we should not expect that they specifically prophesied the gospel (although Isaiah 53 is quite impressive). In summary, the evidence of accepting God’s will and cooperating with Him is manifesting love for everyone including enemies, which is the opposite of that held by those claiming to believe in God/Allah who are grieving Him by terrorizing humanity.