Unmerited Favor..... Has the definition changed? Who changed it?

[thepsalmist]

And yes, NT believers can fall away from the faith as the term "once enlightened" and "partakers of the Holy Ghost" means they were once anointed of the Spirit but had departed from the faith and fallen away like Saul.

Hebrews 6:4-6
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (InSpiritInTruth)

Nods solemnly ... Something all should read with care and meditate deeply on~

 

[thepsalmist]

Perhaps I'll explain.
This doctrine of Prince is leading many to deny the fact that the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. So as a result when they feel the tugging of conviction of the Holy Spirit they deny the necessity of confessing it because to them it's reality is non existent, nor could it be from the Holy Spirit, since to them the Holy Spirit does not convict us of our sins.

Exactly so, brother ... we are on the same page~

 

[crossnote]

Exactly so, brother ... we are on the same page~

And yes, NT believers can fall away from the faith as the term "once enlightened" and "partakers of the Holy Ghost" means they were once anointed of the Spirit but had departed from the faith and fallen away like Saul.

Hebrews 6:4-6
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (InSpiritInTruth)

Nods solemnly ... Something all should read with care and meditate deeply on~

Well, almost on the same page, but that's another topic

 

[Cee]

1 Samuel 10:6 The Spirit of the LORD will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person.

If you're a believer, you died with Christ and were reborn in Him.
Did Saul die with Christ and become reborn in Christ? No.
Were ANY of the OT people REBORN? No.

As far as your example:

1 Samuel 10:10When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying. 11When all those who had formerly known him saw him prophesying with the prophets, they asked each other, “What is this that has happened to the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?”

1 Samuel 11:6When Saul heard their words, the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he burned with anger. 7He took a pair of oxen, cut them into pieces, and sent the pieces by messengers throughout Israel, proclaiming, “This is what will be done to the oxen of anyone who does not follow Saul and Samuel.”

1 Samuel 13:13“You have done a foolish thing,” Samuel said. “You have not kept the command the Lord your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time. 14But now your kingdom will not endure; the Lord has sought out a man after his own heart and appointed him ruler of his people, because you have not kept the Lord’s command.”

Saul was removed because his heart was not after God like David, if he was truly turned into a new man. He would have had his heart after God.

Ezekiel 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

If this reality was already available to Saul as you assert, he would have already had a heart after God.

The reason why Saul was a new man is because the Spirit of the Lord came upon him and he prophesied. However, this did not last because he didn't have a new heart, the spirit wasn't abiding with Him, it rested upon him when needed. You don't see Saul prophesying without having the Spirit come upon him.

Here is how the Spirit spoke through the prophets in the Old Testament.

2 Samuel 23:2 "The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me, And His word was on my tongue.

In the Old Testament the Spirit would come and go, in the New Testament He abides.

Paul brings up an OT Scripture that points to present New Testament reality here:

2 Co 6:16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

2 Tim 1:4 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

Your verse numbers are not matching up with the quotes. But I'm glad you brought this up about David because it actually proves you, Mr. Prince and OSAS doctrine wrong. You said David was not in Christ (which I already showed you were wrong on that) and you also said David was not made a new man, and also OSAS doctrine says the Spirit cannot be taken away from a once saved always saved believer. But yet David was very concerned about the Spirit of God leaving him, Why? Well, for one David knew what happened to Saul after he had rebelled against God's commands and the Spirit was taken from him.

Saul was anointed of the same Spirit of God as David, and notice Saul was made a new person.....

1 Samuel 10:1-6 "Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the Lord hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance?[SUP]2 [/SUP]When thou art departed from me to day, then thou shalt find two men by Rachel's sepulchre in the border of Benjamin at Zelzah; and they will say unto thee, The asses which thou wentest to seek are found: and, lo, thy father hath left the care of the asses, and sorroweth for you, saying, What shall I do for my son?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then shalt thou go on forward from thence, and thou shalt come to the plain of Tabor, and there shall meet thee three men going up to God to Bethel, one carrying three kids, and another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a bottle of wine:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they will salute thee, and give thee two loaves of bread; which thou shalt receive of their hands.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man."

So if Saul was made a new man, why would one think David was not when David received the same anointing of the Holy Spirit?

Also this verse here shows that the Holy Spirit can in fact be taken from a person....

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him."

This brings us to why David was so concerned about the Spirit of God departing from him in Psalm 51. Psalm 51 is the Psalm of David when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in unto Bath-sheba. Also notice David confessing his sins (which hyper grace does not believe is necessary)....

Psalm 51:1-13 "Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.[SUP]2 [/SUP]Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee."

And yes, NT believers can fall away from the faith as the term "once enlightened" and "partakers of the Holy Ghost" means they were once anointed of the Spirit but had departed from the faith and fallen away like Saul.

Hebrews 6:4-6
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

 

[thepsalmist]

Well, almost on the same page, but that's another topic

Hehe ...

Well, as you say, another thread, another day ...

25 hours since I've slept ... been pulling white nights for a couple weeks now ... and I really would love to keep talking "shop", but I think my crazy inner energizer bunny is actually ready for some shut eye~

'Twas a pleasure ...

God Bless ~

 

[Cee]

So you believe that if you fall away you can't be brought back through repentance? That's what a literal reading of this Scripture says. Look at the orange highlight.

Hebrews 6:4-6
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

And yes, NT believers can fall away from the faith as the term "once enlightened" and "partakers of the Holy Ghost" means they were once anointed of the Spirit but had departed from the faith and fallen away like Saul.

Hebrews 6:4-6
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (InSpiritInTruth)

Nods solemnly ... Something all should read with care and meditate deeply on~

 

[Cee]

Yeah, I mean how does a believer mortify the deeds of the body through the Spirit if the Spirit isnt convicting them concerning what to put death?

Makes sense to me

Romans 8:12So then, brothers,[SUP]e[/SUP] we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

This Scripture tells us to live by the Spirit mortifies the deeds of the flesh. And then it goes on to continually state we are sons of God, which is our right-standing (righteousness) under our Father.

 

[crossnote]

Romans 8:12So then, brothers,[SUP]e[/SUP] we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

This Scripture tells us to live by the Spirit mortifies the deeds of the flesh. And then it goes on to continually state we are sons of God, which is our right-standing (righteousness) under our Father.

I think her point was that mortification by the Spirit first includes conviction by the Spirit.

 

[Cee]

I think her point was that mortification by the Spirit first includes conviction by the Spirit.

I don't see that in this Scripture, I see they Spirit of God convicting them of who they are in Christ, i.e. sons of God and being lead by Him. And through this leading, the deeds of the body are mortified. Because we don't live to the flesh. We live to the Spirit.

The idea is that, if Holy Spirit does bring up sin, He isn't staying there, He's moving into convicting us of righteousness. This is the truth that sets us free.

We see the same idea in Col 3.

Colossians 3:5Put to death therefore what is earthly in you:[SUP]b[/SUP] sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6On account of these the wrath of God is coming.[SUP]c[/SUP] 7In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self[SUP]d[/SUP] with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

You see the reason why Holy Spirit convicts of righteousness is because the new man has been created in true righteousness and holiness after the image of its creator. We have put off the old and we have put on the new man, but it's the renewing in knowledge that is being done now.

The issue is that we don't understand what we've been freely given by God yet. But Holy Spirit is teaching us so we can understand.

1 Co 2:12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

That means we have been given it, we just need to understand it.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Shows the Spirit upon them (and these prophesying) from here to Acts (when the same would be poured out upon all flesh and they too would prophesy even accoding to how Moses would have had it.


Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp is by the Spirit

Numbers 11:27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said,
Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.

Numbers 11:28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men,
answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them

Numbers 11:29 And Moses said unto him,
Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets,
and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

As with Saul

1 Sam 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee,
and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

1 Sam 10:6 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee,
that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.

1 Sam 10:9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel,
God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

1 Sam 10:11 And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw that,
behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to another,


What is this that is come unto the son of Kish?

Is Saul also among the prophets?

As Moses said of them that did prophesy likewise to Joshua,

"Would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!"

As the Spirit was upon them (by which they did prophesy) it was spoken of in Joel of a day when His Spirit would be poured out upon all flesh (and they too would prophesy)

Joel 2:28-29 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. (Which is that shown in Acts 2:17)

 

[Cee]

Oh yes I don't disagree, but there is also a difference between Him dwelling in us and abiding vs the Spirit of God resting upon us.

As you look through the Scriptures you posted, notice that when the Spirit is spoken as resting upon prophesy is the result. Him teaching and speaking for God to others.

And when Scripture talks of Him dwelling in us, the result is He is teaching and speaking to us.

Shows the Spirit upon them (and these prophesying) from here to Acts (when the same would be poured out upon all flesh and they too would prophesy even accoding to how Moses would have had it.


Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp is by the Spirit

Numbers 11:27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said,
Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.

Numbers 11:28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men,
answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them

Numbers 11:29 And Moses said unto him,
Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets,
and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

As with Saul

1 Sam 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee,
and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

1 Sam 10:6 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee,
that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.

1 Sam 10:9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel,
God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

1 Sam 10:11 And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw that,
behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to another,


What is this that is come unto the son of Kish?

Is Saul also among the prophets?

As Moses said of them that did prophesy likewise to Joshua,

"Would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!"

As the Spirit was upon them (by which they did prophesy) it was spoken of in Joel of a day when His Spirit would be poured out upon all flesh (and they too would prophesy)

Joel 2:28-29 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. (Which is that shown in Acts 2:17)

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

They usually use Joel (as is quoted in Acts) to prove they had the gift of the Holy Spirit

 

[crossnote]

I don't see that in this Scripture, I see they Spirit of God convicting them of who they are in Christ, i.e. sons of God and being lead by Him. And through this leading, the deeds of the body are mortified. Because we don't live to the flesh. We live to the Spirit.

The idea is that, if Holy Spirit does bring up sin, He isn't staying there, He's moving into convicting us of righteousness. This is the truth that sets us free.

We see the same idea in Col 3.

Colossians 3:5Put to death therefore what is earthly in you:[SUP]b[/SUP] sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6On account of these the wrath of God is coming.[SUP]c[/SUP] 7In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self[SUP]d[/SUP] with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

You see the reason why Holy Spirit convicts of righteousness is because the new man has been created in true righteousness and holiness after the image of its creator. We have put off the old and we have put on the new man, but it's the renewing in knowledge that is being done now.

The issue is that we don't understand what we've been freely given by God yet. But Holy Spirit is teaching us so we can understand.

1 Co 2:12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

That means we have been given it, we just need to understand it.

There still exists the battle between the flesh and the spirit...

Galatians 5:16-17 KJVS
[16] This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. [17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Every believer has to a certain extent an element of unbelief...no ones' faith is 100% perfect except Jesus. To the extent unbelief lies in our heart, to that extent the H.S. convicts us of that unbelief /sin.

I have to turn in now. God bless.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Paul is speaking of Isaac as the one born after the Spirit and what was then (between the one born after the flesh and the Spirit) is the same now as it was then.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

God in you is shown in the context of prophesying though

1 Cr 14:24-25 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

 

[Cee]

Not sure about this translation...

I think ESV is a little clearer, and I agree the gift of the Holy Spirit is the Spirit upon the believer.

1 Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

I believe the idea of this Scripture is them realizing that God is speaking to them through the act of prophesy.

God in you is shown in the context of prophesying though

1 Cr 14:24-25 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Romans 8:12So then, brothers,[SUP]e[/SUP] we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

This Scripture tells us to live by the Spirit mortifies the deeds of the flesh. And then it goes on to continually state we are sons of God, which is our right-standing (righteousness) under our Father.

Mortifying the deeds of the body through the Spirit, would be walking in obedience to the Spirit, and walking by the Spirit in that would also not be fulfiling the lusts of the flesh in the same way

Mortifying ones members shown here also

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Mortify, put to death, or put off and do so through the Spirit.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Not sure about this translation...

I think ESV is a little clearer, and I agree the gift of the Holy Spirit is the Spirit upon the believer.

1 Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

I believe the idea of this Scripture is them realizing that God is speaking to them through the act of prophesy.

The words IN [SUP]G1722[/SUP] are the same are they not?

1 Cr 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is IN [SUP]G1722 [/SUP]you of a truth.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ IN G1722 you, the hope of glory

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is IN [SUP]G1722[/SUP] you, than he that is IN[SUP]G1722[/SUP] the world.


Christ IN G1722 you the hope of glory no?

Or is it Christ AMONG you your hope of glory?

Is it greater is he that is IN G1722 you than he that is IN G1722 the world?

Or is it greater is he that is AMONG you (not in you) than he that is AMONG (not in) the world?

God is not IN G1722 you of a truth in 1 Cr 14:25? (we must switch versions here at this point)?

Its always interesting

 

[vic1980]

Were ANY of the OT people REBORN?

Can anyone show me where in scripture Holy Spirit left King David ?

King David was Born Again

King Saul was not Born Again

Shalom

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

I cant find the word reborn in scripture

Just born after the Spirit

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit,even so it is now.

In Isaac