Unmerited Favor..... Has the definition changed? Who changed it?

[UnderGrace]

Regarding the video on post 34. The individual at the one min 21sec. mark holds up a print dated Jan 23, 2013 off of Prince's website you can read for yourself..."The Holy Spirit does not convict the believer of sin, but of His righteousness in Christ."

Crossnote,

I enjoy many of your posts and have learned a lot from you, however can you direct me to the scripture that states the Holy Spirit convicts the believer of sin.
Thanks. A.

 

[crossnote]

Crossnote,

I enjoy many of your posts and have learned a lot from you, however can you direct me to the scripture that states the Holy Spirit convicts the believer of sin.
Thanks. A.

Off hand? How about David when confronted by Nathan. At first David was going to cover up his deed with a self righteous pronouncement only to be stopped in his tracks by the Prophet's word, inspired by the Holy Spirit, "Thou art that man!".

And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor. The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds: But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter. And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him. And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die: And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity. And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
(2Sa 12:13)


(2Sa 12:1-7)

 

[Angela53510]

That is not true...Prince is no more a false teacher then you are a man. He just "conflicts" with some of your religious upbringings and you are free to have them.

But to malign a teacher in the body of Christ is not wise.

Here is the very first thing you said that was not true - Prince teaches sin confession and repentance.

As far as saying "who they are in Christ" that you oppose which is complete false.

Philemon 1:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That the communication of thy faith may become effectual bythe acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.


You are getting your views from self-proclaimed heretic hunters that continually distort what is being said.

Have you ever listened to a full message from him?

"Religious upbringings?

Really??

I was saved at age 26. I did go to Baptist Sunday school from grade 1 to grade 3, where I memorized a lot of important Bible verses, including John 3:16 and the 23rd Psalm.

But my only "religious upbringing" was in the New Age Movement, which I discovered when I was 12, and really got involved by my 20's. And they were all about "new" things! And using the parts of the Bible they liked, to push that Jesus was just another "Ascended Master" but we could learn from him on our way to Christ consciousness!

Not exactly the most Biblical upbringing!

To say nothing, that this is your standard rebuff when anyone shows you in the Bible where not just Prince, but all the Word of Faith teachers are wrong.

And that is a red herring and a non sequitur! You have no Biblical answers except the one liners (one verse) that you pull out of context. To say nothing of the claim that 1 John 1:9 was written to Gnostics, instead of to Christians who need to hear the truth about how we are to walk with Christ.

And that means - Confessing our sins - all the days of our life on earth. Unless we become perfect, which I am certain is not happening to me.


As for your quote from Philemon 1:6, I would first ask that you take the trouble to post it in modern English. I really had no idea what it said until I looked it up. As I have said over and over and over! I do not speak early modern English. The KJV is the only Bible I have never read through, because I do not understand it.

But, since I was there, I looked up the passage. Was Paul writing that Philemon should follow the WoF or JP? Or some similar false teacher in their age! NO, NO, NO!

Here is the whole passage. (In English!)

"I thank my God always when I remember you in my prayers, 5 because I hear of your love and of the faith that you have toward the Lord Jesus and for all the saints, 6 and I pray that the sharing of your faith may become effective for the full knowledge of every good thing that is in us for the sake of Christ. 7 For I have derived much joy and comfort from your love, my brother, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you."Phil 1:4-7

In fact, that verse is the second half of a sentence. Please do not split sentences in half to try and prove a dubious point. Because you are not going to succeed with me!

In fact, Paul was commending PHILEMON!! For his love, faith, to the Lord Jesus and to all the saints. And he had a special prayer that Philemon would continue to grow and know more and more "every good thing" in us, for the sake of Christ. So a special servant of God, with a prayer he would continue to grow in God.

So yes, we can all pray to know more about God and other good things God has given us. Paul often talks about thinking about the good things in us!

"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you." Philippians 4:8-9

BUT - finding the good things, the excellent things, the joyful things are NOT mutually exclusive with daily humbling ourselves and examining our hearts - and confessing our sins and asking God to help us change those things which are not pleasing to him.

I did listen to a complete message of his a few years back, when challenged by someone. There were numerous errors, springing out of the false doctrines of both the WoF and this hyper grace heresy. Although at that time, I wasn't sure what was wrong, a year of getting pounded with this doctrine from numerous members of this forum, have shown me exactly what is wrong! The usual things like:

Words pulled out of context
Verses pulled out of context
Words used wrong
Scriptures distorted
And reading here today - a wrong revelation from God which has sadly spread like wildfire, and convinced many people who should know better.

"As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith." 1 Tim. 1:3-4

 

[Cee]

I think it's dangerous for us to look at Old Testament characters to determine New Testament realities. Because while David was a forerunner in the Old Testament, He didn't have access like we do. Because Jesus had no yet come and left to give Him to us.

Here's what the New Testament says about what Holy Spirit does:

John 17: 7Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Notice according to this Scripture the advantage we have in Jesus going is that we now have Holy Spirit.

Also According to this Scripture, Holy Spirit does the following:
1. He convicts of Sin which is unbelief in Christ.
2. He convicts of Righteousness which is through our union with Christ and the Father.
3. He convicts of Judgment on the ruler of the world.

Off hand? How about David when confronted by Nathan. At first David was going to cover up his deed with a self righteous pronouncement only to be stopped in his tracks by the Prophet's word, inspired by the Holy Spirit, "Thou art that man!".

And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor. The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds: But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter. And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him. And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die: And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity. And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
(2Sa 12:13)


(2Sa 12:1-7)

 

[Depleted]

This article first appeared in CHRISTIAN RESEARCH JOURNAL, volume 36, number 02 (2013). The full text of this article in PDF format can be obtained by clicking here. For further information or to subscribe to the CHRISTIAN RESEARCH JOURNAL go to: Christian Research Journal - Christian Research Institute

Joseph Prince, senior pastor of New Creation Church Singapore, purports that in 1997 he received “a commission from God to preach grace even more radically.”1 During a vacation in the Swiss Alps, God allegedly told him, “Son, you are not preaching grace…You attempt to balance grace with law… and the moment you balance grace, you neutralize it….If you don’t preach grace radically, people’s lives will never be radically blessed and radically transformed.” He obeyed the voice and his church grew exponentially.2 Today, Prince’s ministry has a global presence through the Destined to Reign television broadcast, books, videos, and speaking engagements. Did Prince receive a message from the Lord? On closer examination, one finds his message of grace is a twisted mix of truth and error.

PRINCE’S PROSPERITY GOSPEL
Much of Prince’s teaching is a repackaging of concepts from the Word of Faith movement.3 He writes, “I give thanks to God for my roots in the Word of Faith teachings. It is truly on the shoulders of great men of God like Brother Kenneth E. Hagin that we are able to see further into the Word of God today.”4 Just as Hagin taught “what the individual says, that shall he receive,”5 so Prince recapitulates, “God says to you, you have an edge, your edge is your mouth. You are righteous by faith, so speak. God’s favor is all over my business…whatever I do prospers!”6 Now Prince admits, “I would preach, ‘The reason you are sick is that there is something wrong with you,’” until one day God supposedly told him, “Stop disqualifying My people! My blood has already qualified them.”7

Nevertheless he has not completely reformed from his old ways. For example, he still thinks poor and sick believers cannot bless anyone, and maintains, “Religion will tell you that ‘God’ wants you sick to teach you character and patience. Religion will tell you that ‘God’ wants you poor, so that you will learn humility. It sounds noble, doesn’t it? But these are LIES from the pit of hell!”8

Prince also uses the Word of Faith tactic of twisting Scripture to buttress the claim that God guarantees unlimited health and wealth this side of eternity. He teaches, for example, that Isaiah 53:5 means, “Sickness and diseases are not from God. On the cross, Jesus bore not just our sins, but also our sicknesses, diseases and infirmities, and ‘by His stripes we are healed!’”9 Isaiah 53:5, however, speaks of spiritual healing, as Peter makes clear, when he writes that Christ “bore our sins on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness, for by His wounds you were healed” (1 Pet. 2:25).10

Prince likewise teaches that 2 Corinthians 8:9 means, “On the cross, Jesus bore the curse of poverty!”11 However, this passage is not teaching Christians are guaranteed wealth; instead, Paul is encouraging Corinthians to be generous, as the other churches of Macedonia were generous despite their poverty (2 Cor. 8:1–6). The Christian is not promised perfect health and unlimited wealth this side of eternity. God promises incorruptible riches instead, including peace that surpasses all understanding and knowledge of Christ and the power of His resurrection (Matt. 6:19–21; Phil. 3:8–11; 4:6–7).

PRINCE’S ANTINOMIANISM
Nothing in Prince’s teachings suggests that the Law, such as the Ten Commandments, has a practical use for the Christian life beyond conversion. He writes, “God gave the law for one purpose, and that is by the law, the world would have the knowledge of sin, and recognize their Savior.”12
According to Prince, God wrote the Ten Commandments on two tablets of stone and the Devil “armed himself with the law to accuse and condemn man” (emphasis in original), but “when God nailed the law to the cross, He made a public spectacle of the devil and all the powers of darkness.” After the cross “the law no longer had the power to condemn man as long as he believed on Jesus.“13 “If you insist on being under the law,” warns Prince, “you are actually arming the devil again”14 and “the devil is the one using the law to bring about death and condemnation and to put believers under oppression!”15

Prince makes the qualification, “Anyone who is living in sin is not under grace and has not experienced the gift of no condemnation”;16 however, he rejects distinguishing between the ceremonial laws as no longer binding from the Ten Commandments or enduring universal moral law as still relevant for believers.17 It is in his understanding that “while God’s law is holy, just and good, it was not meant for man to keep. Man has no ability to keep it.”18 He goes so far as to say, “The law is not for you the believer, who has been made righteous in Christ! The law is not applicable to someone who is under the new covenant of grace” (emphasis in original).19
Prince finds the believer is unable to have “a relationship with the law,” that is “with two cold tablets of stone,” but only “a living relationship with Jesus,” who “will put His laws upon our minds and write them on our hearts, causing us to walk in His ways that lead to life.”20

Prince’s teaching on the Law is essentially a variety of antinomianism. It is the idea that “though the moral law can and does lead one to repentance, it has no relevance to the life of the repentant believer afterward.”21
Now Prince rejects the charge of antinomianism, saying, “I have been accused of being…an antinomian (someone who is against the law of Moses). The truth is that I have the highest regard for the law” (emphasis in original).22 The problem, however, is that antinomianism is more than being “against the law of Moses.” The Law’s purpose is threefold: it restrains sin and promotes righteousness in society, it leads people to the conviction of sin and tutors them to Christ, and it serves as an ethical rule of life for believers.23 It is, therefore, the rejection of the third use of the law that makes Prince guilty of antinomianism.

PRINCE’S REJECTION OF CONFESSION
Prince’s unbiblical view of grace leads him to reject the Christian practice of confessing sin. He writes, “In that very instance when you prayed the prayer of salvation all the sins that you would commit for your entire life were forgiven once and for all….Let me say this plainly: You do not need to confess your sins again and again to be forgiven” (emphasis in original).24 He reasons Paul did not write about confessing sins,25 and 1 John 1:9 does not apply to Christians but to Gnostics who did not believe sin existed.26

Christ’s death is sufficient for making atonement for all the sins of the repentant, but when Christians stumble, confession of sin is the norm. James instructs believers to “confess your sins to one another” (James 1:16; cf. Luke 11:4).
Paul may not have explicitly given instructions to confess sin, but he does not condemn the practice. In fact, the statement, “If anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness” (Gal. 6:1) implies the fallen brother’s confession.

The idea that 1 John 1:9 applies to Gnostics but not to Christians has no basis in reality. Rather than denying sin’s existence, Gnostics believed matter is evil.27 Moreover, 1 John 1 is not addressing a Gnostic error, but broadly defining darkness and light. Those in darkness say they have no sin (v. 8), but those in light confess their sin (v. 9). The idea is this: “The proper Christian attitude to sin is not to deny it but to admit it, and then to receive the forgiveness which God has made possible and promises to us.”28

Joseph Prince is savvy about the errors of the prosperity gospel and antinomianism, and he even makes unambiguous statements denouncing them; nevertheless, he still continues to teach the same errors only under a different light. Compounding the problem is his rejection of Christian confession. In this sense, his distorted grace message is to be rejected.

Warren Nozaki is a researcher at the Christian Research Institute.

NOTES
1. New Creation Church, “History,” http://www.newcreation.org.sg/about-us/history.
2. Joseph Prince, Destined to Reign: The Secret to Effortless Success, Wholeness, and Victorious Living (Tulsa, OK: Harrison House Publisher, 2007), viii.
3. For a full-orbed treatment of the Word of Faith movement, see Hank Hanegraaff, Christianity in Crisis 21st Century (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2009).
4. Prince, Destined to Reign, 271.
5. Kenneth Hagin, How to Write Your Own Ticket with God (Tulsa: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1979), 6.
6. Joseph Prince, Christian Television Network, November 18, 2009.
7. Ibid.
8. Joseph Prince, Unmerited Favor: Your Supernatural Advantage for a Successful Life (Lake Mary, FL: Charisma House, 2010), 30.
9. Prince, Unmerited Favor, 29.
10. All Scripture quotations are from the New American Standard Bible.
11. Prince, Unmerited Favor, 29.
12. Prince, Destined to Reign,16.
13. Ibid., 15.
14. Ibid., 16.
15. Ibid., 121.
16. Ibid., 166.
17. Ibid., 118
18. Ibid., 125
19. Prince, Unmerited Favor, 100.
20. Ibid., 38; cf. Prince, Destined to Reign, 12.
21. Terry Miethe, The Compact Dictionary of Doctrinal Words (Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, 1988), 30.
22. Prince, Destined to Reign, 122.
23. See Louis Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1938), 614–15.
24. Prince, Unmerited Favor, 191.
25. Ibid., 186–87.
26. Ibid., 189.
27. Miethe, 98.
28. John Stott, Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, vol. 19 (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 2000), 82.

Deja Vu!
Joseph Prince: Unmerited Favor - Christian Research Institute


(Just a heads up. I get most people don't understand how this works, but some info on copyright. You need permission to take a whole article from a site. I can tell you didn't because your link won't let me see the article. Even if you attribute the article, it's still taking the writer's work without permission. The author chooses where the article appears for whatever business reason. To post it all over the place lessens the effect and Warren loses credit on it really being his article. Kind of like taking someone's car without asking, even if you leave a note and fill the gas tank before returning it. Just not right. I really do get most folks don't know this, so I'm not upset, but Warren Nozaki might be.)

 

[crossnote]

You are making a false category.
David, Abraham, Joshua all walked by faith in a living relationship with God as we do. Or are you saying because David did not have His Spirit, the Spirit would convict him of sin?
No, sin is sin in any age, with or without His Spirit, and we are all susceptible to sinning, and when we do we are told to confess our sin.

I think it's dangerous for us to look at Old Testament characters to determine New Testament realities. Because while David was a forerunner in the Old Testament, He didn't have access like we do. Because Jesus had no yet come and left to give Him to us.

Here's what the New Testament says about what Holy Spirit does:

John 17: 7Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Notice according to this Scripture the advantage we have in Jesus going is that we now have Holy Spirit.

Also According to this Scripture, Holy Spirit does the following:
1. He convicts of Sin which is unbelief in Christ.
2. He convicts of Righteousness which is through our union with Christ and the Father.
3. He convicts of Judgment on the ruler of the world.

 

[UnderGrace]

I do see what you are saying Crossnote, you may disagree with me and that is fine, while I know that David was a man after God's own heart and the story of David does teach a lot about God.

However, even David did not have access to the completed work of the cross yet, this is the only point of reference to understand all of scripture. In the New Covenant the conviction of sin is for the unbeliever to come to belief in the atoning work of Jesus.

I see nowhere in the New Testament where this is the role of the Holy Spirit for the believer.

In the new covenant the Holy Spirit confirms our standing as adopted sons and daughters so we do not want to sin.

God's plan of salvation is so perfect, through his Holy Spirit we are partakers of God's divine image. 2Peter 1:4

Off hand? How about David when confronted by Nathan. At first David was going to cover up his deed with a self righteous pronouncement only to be stopped in his tracks by the Prophet's word, inspired by the Holy Spirit, "Thou art that man!".

And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor. The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds: But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter. And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him. And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die: And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity. And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
(2Sa 12:13)


(2Sa 12:1-7)

 

[Depleted]

Deja Vu!
Joseph Prince: Unmerited Favor - Christian Research Institute


(Just a heads up. I get most people don't understand how this works, but some info on copyright. You need permission to take a whole article from a site. I can tell you didn't because your link won't let me see the article. Even if you attribute the article, it's still taking the writer's work without permission. The author chooses where the article appears for whatever business reason. To post it all over the place lessens the effect and Warren loses credit on it really being his article. Kind of like taking someone's car without asking, even if you leave a note and fill the gas tank before returning it. Just not right. I really do get most folks don't know this, so I'm not upset, but Warren Nozaki might be.)

Oops, sorry! Bad linking last time. Let's try this again. (But please note, quite a few responses are deja vu too.)
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ince-cancerous-growth-within-gods-people.html

 

[crossnote]

I do see what you are saying Crossnote, you may disagree with me and that is fine, while I know that David was a man after God's own heart and the story of David does teach a lot about God.

However, even David did not have access to the completed work of the cross yet, this is the only point of reference to understand all of scripture. In the New Covenant the conviction of sin is for the unbeliever to come to belief in the atoning work of Jesus.

I see nowhere in the New Testament where this is the role of the Holy Spirit for the believer.

In the new covenant the Holy Spirit confirms our standing as adopted sons and daughters so we do not want to sin.

God's plan of salvation is so perfect, through his Holy Spirit we are partakers of God's divine image. 2Peter 1:4

All I'll say is that those Christians who no longer come under the conviction of sin have reached a point of a hardened heart...usually through stubbornly holding to their sin or a false teaching that tells them confession/forgiveness is not needed.

 

[UnderGrace]

All I'll say is that those Christians who no longer come under the conviction of sin have reached a point of a hardened heart...usually through stubbornly holding to their sin or a false teaching that tells them confession/forgiveness is not needed.

Well if you knew me, you would know that my heart is anything but hardened presently......it was much harder when I kept seeing all my sins (and everyone else's for that matter) rather than the glory that is Jesus.

I believed and accepted ONE sacrifice for all my sins past, present and future, my heart has absolutely melted knowing such a Divine reality.

 

[Cee]

Let's go through this line by line in

1 John 1
[SUP]
This is the Gospel message we heard from Him and that we proclaim to you, God is light and there is no darkness in Him.

5 [/SUP]This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
You can't walk in Him and walk in darkness, this is a lie. You don't have fellowship with Him. If we don't have fellowship with Him do we know Him? John says we lie and do not practice truth. It's a hard stance, but this is what he is saying.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

But - if we walk in light, as He is, we shall walk together. We are saved.
And the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Oh you say you have no sin? You don't need the blood of Jesus to cleanse you from all sin? John says we are deceived and the truth is not in us. He just said we walk in darkness the truth is not in us, also. Jesus is the Truth. And He is the Light, so how can we walk in darkness and not in the truth? This is the idea John is laying down.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [SUP]

If we confess our sins though, he is faithful and just to forgive us us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. But he just said the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness. Is he saying that we need more blood? No, I don't believe so.

9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [SUP]

Because look at this next Scripture, if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar. And his word is not in us.

When did He say we have sinned? He said it in the OT, through Romans, all have sinned and fallen short of His glory. This statement tells us he is talking to unregenerate people.

10 [/SUP]If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Next line

I am writing these things to you, so you may NOT sin. But IF, not WHEN...

2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

The idea John is laying down is this.

1. This is the message we heard from Him and give to you (Gospel message)
2. God is light and He is truth
3. If you abide in Him you will walk in light and in truth
4. If you think you abide in Him and walk in truth without Jesus, you're wrong.
5. If you don't walk in light and truth and you think you abide in Him, you're wrong.
6. I am telling you this children so you may not sin
7. But if you do, you have an advocate with Jesus who is your righteousness.
8. But not only for you, He took the sins of the whole world.

Thank you John for laying out the gospel message so beautifully.

 

[Stephen63]

This is an absolute false comment. He says the complete opposite.

If you don't believe that the Holy Spirit convicts/convinces us that we are righteous because Jesus went to the cross and He is at the right hand of the Father now as our Advocate...that is your business. I won't call you a false teacher - you are just ignorant of what Christ has done for us.

What's true here is how you tried to trip folks up with this statement. First, you say what I've said here is false:

Originally Posted by Stephen63

When Prince states that there's no repentance or confession of sin after conversion,


Then you say it was about conviction of righteousness..... Are you so foolish you think you can take my statement out of its paragraph & its context & twist it to say whatever you want?

Here, dear readers, is the smoking gun..... Grace777x70 will say & do ANYTHING to get folks to believe his lies. What else needs to be said?

 

[Cee]

I am definitely NOT saying that.

I am saying that David was not in Christ, He was not a new creation in Christ, He did not have the better promise that we do, I am saying David did not die to himself and be reborn in newness of life. But yes David did have a relationshiwp with Holy Spirit upon him, but not joined with him like we do.

Thus how can we be convicted of righteousness? He didn't have any.

Our righteousness is found in our union with Christ.

This promise wasn't available for the NT writers.

As far as false category, I'm pretty sure anyone would agree you don't look at the OT to determine the NT realities, but you can look at the OT with NT eyes to see how Christ foretold what He laid forth for us today.

Especially when you take Scriptures into count that say they looked FORWARD to the day we have. They wanted what we have today, which means they didn't have it. They desired greatly to have what we do.

Matt 7:18 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

After Hebrews goes through all the men of faith he finishes with this...

Hebrews 11:39And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

And just to make this thought completely I'll show you what Scripture says the promise is:

Galatians 3:14 He redeemed us so that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
And here is the parallel to Jesus saying about seeing and hearing (and how it links to Holy Spirit)

Acts 2:33 Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

The reason I think it's important we know this, is because we don't want to look back into the OT and say wow look what they had, because every single one of them look forward to what we now have in Christ.

Like Jesus said, He is our advantage. Bless you bro.

C.

You are making a false category.
David, Abraham, Joshua all walked by faith in a living relationship with God as we do. Or are you saying because David did not have His Spirit, the Spirit would convict him of sin?
No, sin is sin in any age, with or without His Spirit, and we are all susceptible to sinning, and when we do we are told to confess our sin.

 

[Cee]

All I'll say is that those Christians who no longer come under the conviction of sin have reached a point of a hardened heart...usually through stubbornly holding to their sin or a false teaching that tells them confession/forgiveness is not needed.

Here's what I'll say to that, the Christians I know who are under the conviction of righteousness in my experience are far more loving, forgiving, free, have far more fruit and represent Christ more than those I know who are under the conviction of sin.

Probably because they actually believe they are free of sin thus free to love like Paul did.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Seriously, another "hate/attack" thread? How many of these do we need. They always end up getting out of hand and need to be closed. The man is not even here to defend himself. And so many good people are leaving because of cap like this. The same group of people always causing division and attacking. When are the mods going to put a stop to this? I beg you, enough is enough.

 

[Stephen63]

Deja Vu!
Joseph Prince: Unmerited Favor - Christian Research Institute


(Just a heads up. I get most people don't understand how this works, but some info on copyright. You need permission to take a whole article from a site. I can tell you didn't because your link won't let me see the article. Even if you attribute the article, it's still taking the writer's work without permission. The author chooses where the article appears for whatever business reason. To post it all over the place lessens the effect and Warren loses credit on it really being his article. Kind of like taking someone's car without asking, even if you leave a note and fill the gas tank before returning it. Just not right. I really do get most folks don't know this, so I'm not upset, but Warren Nozaki might be.)

First, there's this:

Christian Research Journal - Christian Research Institute

Then there's this:

Warren Nozaki is a researcher at the Christian Research Institute.

I would have thought that would have been enough.

 

[Stephen63]

Seriously, another "hate/attack" thread? How many of these do we need. They always end up getting out of hand and need to be closed. The man is not even here to defend himself. And so many good people are leaving because of cap like this. The same group of people always causing division and attacking. When are the mods going to put a stop to this? I beg you, enough is enough.

Let's see..... so far the only ones who are making it look like a "hate/attack" thread is..... you, for posting this judging statement.

Now, you are welcome to post REAL INFORMATION on this thread, or you can cease & desist right now. One more outburst like this on this thread by you & I will copy/paste your posts on my report to the moderator. I hope we understand each other a little better now.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let's see..... so far the only ones who are making it look like a "hate/attack" thread is..... you, for posting this judging statement.

Now, you are welcome to post REAL INFORMATION on this thread, or you can cease & desist right now. One more outburst like this on this thread by you & I will copy/paste your posts on my report to the moderator. I hope we understand each other a little better now.

Go ahead, we have had enough of these threads in fact I will report mysel. This is not a Joseph Prince discussion forum it is a bible discussion forum

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And that is a red herring and a non sequitur! You have no Biblical answers except the one liners (one verse) that you pull out of context. To say nothing of the claim that 1 John 1:9 was written to Gnostics, instead of to Christians who need to hear the truth about how we are to walk with Christ.

This lie was unheard of until Prince made this claim in his book Destined to R̶u̶i̶n̶ Reign. Since then people without good spiritual sense have regurgitated it incessantly. Yet all the noise is based on only one sentence in his book that has absolutely no scholarship associated with it.

This “keeping short accounts with God” continued even when I was drafted into the military, which is mandatory for all male citizens in Singapore. One day, I overheard my bunk mates talking about me among themselves: “He’s really strange…” said one. Another replied, “Yeah, why does he do that? Have you seen him whisper under his breath as he’s running or doing something?” At that point, I realized that I wasn’t being a very good testimony for Jesus. All my military friends must have thought that Christians, to put it mildly, were a strange bunch. But I was in serious bondage. I really believed that I had to confess every bad thing that I thought I had done, all the time. Since all this happened during the time when I believed that it was possible for Christians to commit the unpardonable sin, I confessed as much as I could just to be “safe”. I took 1 John 1:9 to the limit and it nearly drove me insane. But what does 1 John 1:9 really say and to whom was it actually written?

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

People have taken this verse and built a whole doctrine around it when actually, chapter 1 of 1 John was written to the Gnostics, who were unbelievers. John was saying to these unbelievers that if they confessed their sins, God would be faithful and just to cleanse them from all unrighteousness.​

 

[Cee]

In order to understand the Hebrews Scripture "chastises" you have to know that this word is in AIM for who the person is becoming.

Example: You don't punish your kids because you are angry at them (I hope!), but so you can teach them. Chastises is being disciplined, it's like a piece of wood being carved. Carved (conformed) into the image of the Son of God.

If your kids do something silly, what do you say, we don't do that! That's not who you are, this is who you are...

This is the meaning of convicting of righteousness. If we do sin, that just shows us we need to be convicted of righteousness in that area, we see this same idea in plenty of Scriptures, especially those that discuss renewing of the mind.

Which is taking OFF the old man (stupid stuff)
Putting ON the new man created after righteousness and holiness (God's stuff)

The reason you want to know where sin in your life is, is so you can take it off, because that's not who you are. And then can put on the new man. This is renewing of the mind as outlined in Scripture.

Eph 4:22-24
[SUP]22 [/SUP]to put off your old self,[SUP][a][/SUP] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, [SUP]24 [/SUP]and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.


Why would Holy Spirit convict us of sin, we are dead to it, why would we continue in it any longer?
The only reason is if we think we're not actually dead to it.

P.S. The need to slander a man, instead of showing Scripture, is a work of the flesh.

The idea that you can pull things he says out of context and then use it to attack him is definitely not a fruit of the Spirit, for your convenience I've outlined them both below.

What's your reasoning for why you still do these things?

Gal 5:19Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21envy,[SUP]d[/SUP] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Notice that it tells us what the works of the flesh are, but then it says what the FRUIT of the Spirit is...

Old man > New man.

Confess it if you wish, I don't have a problem with it, Scripture says IF we sin, we have an advocate, but let me suggest you put on its righteous equivalent or else you could just be going around in around in a circle. Freedom comes by knowing the truth because the truth will set you free. What is that truth? You are a new man in Christ.

C.

Thank you psalmist for this video.


[video=youtube;I7ap1pt5Qqg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7ap1pt5Qqg[/video]

Before the first minute lapsed, this gentleman stated a very important fact that I casually overlooked..... The Holy Spirit doesn't convict believers of sin after conversion.

When Prince states that there's no repentance or confession of sin after conversion, that ABSOLUTELY means the Holy Spirit isn't convicting us of that sin anymore. Here is what's at the top of Prince's Facebook page:

The Holy Spirit does not convict the believer of sin, but of his righteousness in Christ! In this powerful message get acquainted with the lovely person of the Holy Spirit and understand His vital role in your life.
Find out how and why being righteousness-conscious with the help of the Spirit is the key to reigning in life. As you allow Him to remind you of the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness you have received through Christ, you'll begin to experience true heart transformation and genuine, lasting freedom from all addictions and bondages!

All-in-all, what Prince offers is a salvation without commitment, confession, conviction, or repentance with a get-outta-bondage-&-addictions card.
When Prince teaches this, he lies on the Holy Spirit & Jesus Himself. Note the scripture:
John 16:7-15 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: [SUP]9 [/SUP]Of sin, because they believe not on me; [SUP]10 [/SUP]Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; [SUP]11 [/SUP]Of judgment, because the PRINCE of this world is judged. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. [SUP]14 [/SUP]He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Hebrews 12:4-17 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: [SUP]6 [/SUP]For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? [SUP]8 [/SUP]But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? [SUP]10 [/SUP]For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; [SUP]13 [/SUP]And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: [SUP]15 [/SUP]Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; [SUP]16[/SUP]Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

This doctrine of Prince's sounds like another huge step taken in apostasy.....maybe the last one required.