Unmerited Favor..... Has the definition changed? Who changed it?

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Let's see..... so far the only ones who are making it look like a "hate/attack" thread is..... you, for posting this judging statement.

Now, you are welcome to post REAL INFORMATION on this thread, or you can cease & desist right now. One more outburst like this on this thread by you & I will copy/paste your posts on my report to the moderator. I hope we understand each other a little better now.

This is that small clique's modus operandii to try to shut down discussion of ideas that they don't agree with. You clearly pegged it's beginning. Watch how it unfolds.

 

[UnderGrace]

Why would Holy Spirit convict us of sin, we are dead to it, why would we continue in it any longer?
The only reason is if we think we're not actually dead to it.

Amen and Amen! How can there be any argument against this it baffles my mind.

Thank you Cee

 

[Stephen63]

Go ahead, we have had enough of these threads in fact I will report mysel. This is not a Joseph Prince discussion forum it is a bible discussion forum

Sorry, I don't see the "we" that's had enough anywhere..... all I see is you.

 

[garee]

My two cents, times a thousand.

Sorry in advance for the length which I feel is needed to understand my point. And not necessary believe it, as if it it was the gospel

God either does all the work of creating new creatures or he does nothing. We cannot chasten our own self as in self-healing as in ; name it claim it because our hearts believe. That would make the cause us and not him doing the first work by which we can believe Him according to the working of His faith towards us .

Prayerfully and carefully we must decide who does the first work so that we can believe (have faith not of ourselves )

I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth. Jer 31:18

Repentance is a work of God, it is our first love, our first encounter by which we receive the Holy Spirit of Christ. it is the work of God turning us so that in turn we can believe Him, rather than man, seen. By it we then can work to believe Him as our labor of love towards him .

Faith works two ways. His towards us, and our amen from hearing Him, towards Him. It is called the hearing of faith, again our first love, as new creatures

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast “left thy first love”.Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent Rev 2:2

Repentance, the first work God... works in us by which we can then in turn to work to believe Him. It, is in respect to believing him is not attributed to man in any way shape or form .

It’s not a matter of having good philosophical reasoning and choosing between life and death making those who do not believe stupid, as if it had to do with our intellect or at least mine. . But rather is a supernatural work of the Spirit of Christ.

We cannot save our own self by believing with our hearts making it the source of faith .We who were dead in our trespasses and sin without hope and without God in this world need a newly created heart and a new eternal spirit. The heart of man is desperately wicked as in who could “know it”?

God is greater than our heart, the seat of our imagination. It is the source of faith for an atheist by which they say there is no God , showing they have faith in respect to the imagination of their own heart. . .

The Holy Spirit uses the parable below to emphasize that faith does not come from ourselves in any way shape or form .As in name it, claim it, spend it.

Jer 17:11 As the partridge sitteth on eggs, and hatcheth them not; so he that getteth riches, and not by right, shall leave them in the midst of his days, and at his end shall be a fool.

Interestingly he uses that portion of scripture to rebuke the Pharisees in the new testament. They were judging by mere appearance the woman caught in adultery. When Jesus began writing their names in the earth from the eldest... who most likely had a better working knowledge of Jeremiah to the younger who followed after the eldest. They turn away from God voice, not toward him which is needed to repent. They were trusting their own heart as a name it claim it, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke.

There was no turning to God the source of His faith according to his own soul so therefor they did not repent..This shows us he is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul please.
Back to the Jeremiah exposition...

A glorious high throne from the beginning is the place of our sanctuary.O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters. Jer 17:12

Believing God is the result of His faith working in us. It is the “work of God” turning us towards himself by which we can believe God. Just as Christ informed the disciples in John 6.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, “This is the work of God”, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It is from that stand point that word of faith preachers hope falsely.. Many say believing, having faith is not a work. It destroys God’s work of faith towards us. Therefore falsely giving the illusion as a claim to fame . Just as the Pharisees with Sadducees said; physician heal yourself, to Christ......name it claim it

To believe it is a work we could do is to blaspheme the holy name of God .This is by having one self as a god before God and therefore violating the first commandment.

We are not to have the faith of (not in towards) Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God (not in towards) This is in respect to any person to include one self.

This is shown in many places... but clearly in the warning in 1 John 2 in respect to the many antichrists (plural) which are here and have been here even during the time of Christ on earth .

The deceiver, the antichrist(singular) Satan would like us to believe he is not here and we are to look to some form that would identify Satan who has no form. He is called the man of sin because he uses men in a hope they would follow other men as if men where Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God.

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1Jo 2:27 Rev 2:2

We I believe can see clearly the antichrist (singular) Satan working in the heart of Peter using him as one of the many antichrists (plural) Although Peter under the influence of the antichrist (Satan) was deceived. It did not take away the fact that Christ cannot deny himself that he continued to work in Peter to the end as the same confidence given to all in whom he has mercy on. He that began the good work of salvation in Peter.

We can be sure He finished forming Christ in Peter as he does with us to the very end.

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, “Lord”: this shall not be unto “thee” .But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto “me”: for thou savourest not the “things that be of God”, but “those that be of men”. Mat 16:22

Clearing the man of sin is Satan who is not a man but works in and through man mimicking Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God. There is no better of a description of the antichrist (Satan the serpent ) working in the affairs of men trying to usurp that authority of God .Just as he did in the garden using the form of a serpent that time.

Faith as to the hearing of, is a two way street . God working in us or towards us by which we can love Him, the living creating work and our amen towards Him. The dead work. It seems to get glossed over from my experiences.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of “faith toward God”,

Joself Prince is the later who promotes “dead works” called the name it claim it as if the healing depended on our faith towards Him and not His work of faith toward us. .

Again no man can repent unless God does the first work of giving us ears to hear him .... the exclusive faith that turns us towards Him .

It like all of the word of faith minsters they simply turn things upside down making man’s deceitful heart the source of faith and not the word of God according to his pure heart . It’s a self-healing ministry where man makes the claim to fame as gods in the likeness of men .

 

[Cee]

Amen and Amen! How can there be any argument against this it baffles my mind.

Thank you Cee

There isn't, that's why Scriptures are ignored instead of discussed.

And then because these simple Scriptures can't be refuted, the next is to attack people.

Here's a tip for you, when someone won't discuss your Scriptures, and uses 1-2 Scriptures for their entire theology, they are in error. You know this because they are not willing to bring their ideas out into the light. And God is in the light.

I love your posts and it is obvious that you love Jesus and you know your freedom in Him. Keep helping other people to know how free they are in Christ. Sometimes I get a little passionate in these threads and I am always reminded of this Scripture:

1 Co 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

It's been my passionate pursuit to understand His love, so that I might understand how to love more. Love is all through out Scripture, it is who He is, it is the essence of the law, it fulfills the law, it is how we are filled with Him, and at the end of our lives we are compared to love. I want to encourage you to let love also be your pursuit. And also that you would rest in His love for you as He pursues you.

Bless you sister,

C.

 

[thepsalmist]

Seriously, another "hate/attack" thread? How many of these do we need. They always end up getting out of hand and need to be closed. The man is not even here to defend himself. And so many good people are leaving because of cap like this. The same group of people always causing division and attacking. When are the mods going to put a stop to this? I beg you, enough is enough.

Joseph Prince has been an active member here at least as long as I have been ... He offers his doctrine in sermons at least once or twice a week in the form of OP threads brought to us by Grace777x70.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [SUP]

If we confess our sins though, he is faithful and just to forgive us us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. But he just said the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness. Is he saying that we need more blood? No, I don't believe so.

John was refuting the gnostic belief that they were without sin because the inner spiritual man was who they really were, and it was pure of sin and unable to sin.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sorry, I don't see the "we" that's had enough anywhere..... all I see is you.

That's part of the methodology to make it look like the opposing viewpoint is just a minority troublemaker. Also, the statement that so many people are leaving because of this. Right, like he really knows.

 

[Cee]

John was refuting the gnostic belief that they were without sin because the inner spiritual man was who they really were, and it was pure of sin and unable to sin.

If you're going to teach on this one verse, I suggest you explain the entire context like I have done with your interpretation. Or else you are simply ignoring the context. I have gone through line by line to show the idea of the verse. You have added a ton of words that are not actually in it. And he said none of those things. But you attest he did. I would prefer to let the Bible speak for itself and not what you tell me the traditions say.

Was Paul a gnostic because he believed we were free of sin and no longer under bondage to it? No. He wasn't. Which shows your idea of what they believed gnostics were incorrect.

What you have done is taken a Scriptural interpretation and simply added gnostic to it, instead of actually discussing the Scriptures. I think it's obvious I am not worried about discussing context in every Scripture interpretation I share.

I will go chapter by chapter, I don't mind. I am okay if I am wrong, I am seeking truth.

C.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If you're going to teach on this one verse, I suggest you explain the entire context like I have done with your interpretation. Or else you are simply ignoring the context. I have gone through line by line to show the idea of the verse. You have added a ton of words that are not actually in it. And he said none of those things. But you attest he did. I would prefer to let the Bible speak for itself and not what you tell me the traditions say.

Was Paul a gnostic because he believed we were free of sin and no longer under bondage to it? No. He wasn't. Which shows your idea of what they believed gnostics were incorrect.

What you have done is taken a Scriptural interpretation and simply added gnostic to it, instead of actually discussing the Scriptures. I think it's obvious I am not worried about discussing context in every Scripture interpretation I share.

I will go chapter by chapter, I don't mind. I am okay if I am wrong, I am seeking truth.

C.

It's well known that John was refuting proto-gnostic beliefs in 1 John. I can identify in that epistle 3 or 4 of their beliefs that he addressed. 1 John 1:8 is clearly one of them.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I am saying that David was not in Christ, He was not a new creation in Christ, He did not have the better promise that we do, I am saying David did not die to himself and be reborn in newness of life.

Yikes! Shows how little you understand. If David was not given a new heart and spirit by God's anointing then how did he have a heart after God's own heart? And if David and the prophets of God spoke by the Spirit of Christ that was in them, then how is it you can say that David was not in Christ?

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.


Matthew 22:43
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

 

[garee]

Why would Holy Spirit convict us of sin, we are dead to it, why would we continue in it any longer?
The only reason is if we think we're not actually dead to it.

It’s not His goal that we do continue. The goal of his faith working in us is the salvation of our soul. He can do it easily its been finished from the foundation of the world. we just work it out .Not work for it.

It’s really not that difficult, just believe God.

If he has begun the good work of salvation, he will finish it all the way to the end . That is if the father is drawing according to His word. He says; he will not cast those out the first time they sin.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you “will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ”

What it does not say is.; if you refuse to forgive someone of a temporal debt you forfeit his unmerited favor. That sin is no less unforgivable then murder like that of David who had Bathsheba husband killed because he could not control, his lust of the flesh, lust of the eye as pride of this life. At whatever point one violates a commandment of God they are guilty of the whole and the whole punishment (eternal damnation due)

As long as we live in these corrupted bodies of death its desire is to sin against God .Christian or non-Christian .Christian are saved from paying the price of sin eternal damnation never to come to new life again. we are delivered and God continues to form Christ in us all the way to the end .Is it not your confidence rather than losing salvation the first time you do sin. and therefore crucify him again and again to public shame as if one work of faith according to His labor of love was not enough to satisfy the just demands of our father. all the days of your life.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the “body of this death”?I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Rom 7:24

 

[FreeNChrist]

It's well known that John was refuting proto-gnostic beliefs in 1 John. I can identify in that epistle 3 or 4 of their beliefs that he addressed. 1 John 1:8 is clearly one of them.

And 1 John 1:9 was his solution for them.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And 1 John 1:9 was his solution for them.

That's the lie taught by followers of Prince. 1 John 1:9 describes a spiritual truth that pertains to all men.

 

[FreeNChrist]

That's the lie taught by followers of Prince. 1 John 1:9 describes a spiritual truth that pertains to all men.

Right. 1 John 1:8 is addressing Gnostics, but 1 John 1:9 is not.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Right. 1 John 1:8 is addressing Gnostics, but 1 John 1:9 is not.

1 John 1:8 refutes gnostic doctrine; it doesn't address gnostics.

 

[crossnote]

A new testament example of repentance...

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 KJVS
[1] It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. [2] And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. [3] For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, [4] In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, [5] To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


Apparently the individual turned and was restored..

2 Corinthians 7:8-11 KJVS
[8] For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. [9] Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. [10] For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. [11] For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

 

[crossnote]

Well if you knew me, you would know that my heart is anything but hardened presently......it was much harder when I kept seeing all my sins (and everyone else's for that matter) rather than the glory that is Jesus.

I believed and accepted ONE sacrifice for all my sins past, present and future, my heart has absolutely melted knowing such a Divine reality.

And when you do sin, do you just cover it or confess it?
I find His blood sweetly cleanses a guilty conscience...no condemnation.

 

[FreeNChrist]

1 John 1:8 refutes gnostic doctrine; it doesn't address gnostics.

So, 1 John 1:8 is addressing and refuting the errant beliefs of Gnostics, but the solution to those errant beliefs being offered in 1 John 1:9 is not addressing those same errant gnostic beliefs?

 

[Cee]

"If David was not given a new heart and spirit by God's anointing then how did he have a heart after God's own heart?"

Great questions here's David's psalm:

"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy Spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free Spirit." Psalm 5:10-12.

In the OT the Spirit came upon the prophets, but He was not joined with them.

1 Samuel 16:3 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And the Spirit of the LORD rushed upon David from that day forward. And Samuel rose up and went to Ramah.

Matthew 22:43
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

In Spirit means the Spirit was speaking through them.

I'm okay with your interpretation except for a few things.

If you believe the old testament prophets did have what we have let me ask you a few things to understand you better. That way I can gain the understanding that you say I do not have, but that you do.

1. What is the promise they looked forward to?
2. Why could they not hear what we can or see what we can? Acts 2:23
3. Why does Scripture clearly say we have a better promise and they didn't?
4. If the promise isn't Holy Spirit joined with us, what does the promise mean to you, using Scripture like I did?
5. Why was David worried about Holy Spirit leaving him, but we have been sealed with him forever?
6. Why did Paul say this regarding Holy Spirit... Contrasting what OT believers had, but then following up with BUT, we have the Spirit of God, the mind of Christ, wouldn't they have had this already?

9But, as it is written,“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.

7. In Hebrews we see the following about what's coming...

Hebrews 10:15

15And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
16“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”


Why does Scripture say this is coming, if you believe it was already here for David and the Prophets that foretold about the promise coming?

8. Hebrews 10:20 19Therefore, brothers,[SUP]c[/SUP] since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,

This is an illustration of the curtain (which was torn in 2 after He died) that separated people from the Holy of Holies, Jesus came and when His flesh was torn a new way was opened up, why does this say new way, if it was already available?

9. Why did Jesus say that He hadn't sent the Spirit yet, and He had to go so that He could come? If He was already accessible?

I am okay with the answers you have, but these are a few reasons, that I believe that we have something better, a better promise, a joining with Holy Spirit, it's never spoken of the OT prophets like it is for us, and finally we are a new creation which means something new. And Jesus is clear about saying all of the prophets looked forward to our day. And Paul contrasts old testament realities with the new testament realities.

If you have good answers for my questions, I'm willing to open up my interpretation, but these are a few things that I believe need to be addressed in order to believe what you are saying. So that the whole of Scripture might interpret itself.

C.

Yikes! Shows how little you understand. If David was not given a new heart and spirit by God's anointing then how did he have a heart after God's own heart? And if David and the prophets of God spoke by the Spirit of Christ that was in them, then how is it you can say that David was not in Christ?

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.


Matthew 22:43
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,