Unsystematic theology.

[Eli1]

One of the reasons I like Louw-Nida's Greek-English Lexicon is that it speaks about the difficulties in translating Greek into other languages besides English because all languages do not contain all the same concepts.

I was born next-door to Greece in Albania and even though i don't speak Greek i understand the difficulties of translations. I have mentioned this before.
But through questions and answers we may arrive to an agreeable understanding.
For example, i agree with what you said in post 56.

 

[Karlon]

Many Christians wish the Bible was clearer. There are many passages that are hard to understand. Some seem contradictory or contrary to nature. Brilliant scholars with vast knowledge of Greek and Hebrew fail to agree on some interpretations. What hope have people like me, who have no knowledge of Hebrew and only slight knowledge of Greek?

Why does God do this? If we were writing the Bible, we would ensure that there was no place for confusion. The Bible itself tells us why.

The first problem is what is called "the natural man". This is an individual who is either not born again at all or perhaps, spiritually dormant. Those who are born again but rely entirely on their intellect are often confused by what they read. As Paul said to the Corinthians,

"The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14).

This is one reason why it is so important to have the mind renewed. Often, the spirit of the born again believer knows intuitively what the Bible means. But when logic and reason argue against intuition, we have a battle on our hands.

For example, perhaps the greatest truth in God's word for us personally is that God loves us. Unconditionally. Yet how often we look at ourselves and wonder how God can love someone like us. Perhaps our circumstances are hard, even impossible, so we doubt. We wonder if God has forsaken us, yet God's word says that He will never leave us or forsake us.

Luke 10:21 says that God has hidden spiritual truths from the wise and revealed them to little children. So much for the doctorate of divinity.

God has provided the means for any believer, no matter how lacking in knowledge, to receive the true understanding of His word. Paul prayed for the Ephesians what we do well to pray for ourselves, "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in your knowledge of Him." (Ephesians 1:17). Those who are born again can call upon the help of the Holy Spirit to give them understanding of what they are reading.

God may not answer your request immediately. We may need to persist in our request. God's priority is for us to know Him and to know Jesus. Knowledge for the sake of it is not edifying and may result in pride (and I know a lot about that). On the other hand, it is the truth that sets us free. And that apparent contradiction is exactly what I am talking about.

it's easy. get a Hebrew ( o.t. ), & Greek ( n.t. ), translation book & find an expert on translations. also, know 2nd Timothy 2:7 & 15. as well as John 14: 26 & 16:13. if you are not born again, become that now so you will have the Holy Spirit living inside for life. He will assist you in understanding this & that. you can aways meet with a pastor for help. if the Bible was written in another language, more people would be thinking & saying what you said here. remember Jesus was Jewish & God knew in His infinite wisdom that the o.t. & n.t. were written in the perfect language. there's no confusion permanently. there's always a way to get answer. there are even foods you can ingest that increase intelligence & memory. blueberries, fish & spinach are 3 of them. stop believing that the Bible is difficult to understand. every time you say that, you reinforce your conditioned response to believe it. your brain will learn anything you put in it, weather it's right, wrong, sinful, bad, negative, etc. no, God will never forsake us: Hebrews 13:5- "....... I will never leave thee nor forsake thee". your last paragraph speaks the truth very much so! nice.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I was born next-door to Greece in Albania and even though i don't speak Greek i understand the difficulties of translations. I have mentioned this before.
But through questions and answers we may arrive to an agreeable understanding.
For example, i agree with what you said in post 56.

I love your approach. And I respect that you can communicate in more than one language. It's a feat I have attempted but have not mastered.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I'm sorry.
I don't understand your description.

What don't you understand? Everything we inherited from Adam is the natural man. How is that not clear?

 

[Eli1]

What don't you understand? Everything we inherited from Adam is the natural man. How is that not clear?

Ah okay.
So this means 'First sin' or 'inherited sin'.
If you translate 'natural man' as something similar along those lines then i do understand you.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Ah okay.
So this means 'First sin' or 'inherited sin'.
If you translate 'natural man' as something similar along those lines then i do understand you.

I'm not a believer in inherited sin, so I would not describe it that way. I describe it as an inherited corrupted nature that is separated from God and therefore unable of itself to do his will. Therfore it sins because it is unable to perfectly know the will of God.

 

[Eli1]

I'm not a believer in inherited sin

Thank you.
I now understand you even better.

 

[PaulThomson]

How can a believer be indwelt without having?!

S/he can't.

 

[GaryA]

What don't you understand? Everything we inherited from Adam is the natural man. How is that not clear?

Ah okay.
So this means 'First sin' or 'inherited sin'.
If you translate 'natural man' as something similar along those lines then i do understand you.

I'm not a believer in inherited sin, so I would not describe it that way. I describe it as an inherited corrupted nature that is separated from God and therefore unable of itself to do his will. Therfore it sins because it is unable to perfectly know the will of God.

Thank you.
I now understand you even better.

With regard to what we inherited from Adam, I believe the particular term you are looking for is 'sin-nature' - what we inherited from Adam is the 'sin-nature' of man. We did not inherit sin itself from Adam - but rather, the 'sin-nature' that passed on from Adam. (the "fallen condition" of man) And, the term 'natural man' embodies the 'sin-nature' of man - because, that is the "natural" state of man. So, that is what 'natural man' is referring to.

 

[PaulThomson]

What do you mean by "having" the Holy Spirit?

Romans 8
Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God is dwelling in you.

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is dwelling in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give [be giving] life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells [is dwelling] in you.

When we put our trust in Jesus Christ we are given new perfect spirit and the Holy spirit come into the spirit to be in us.

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Jhn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
At that point we "have" the Holy Spirit. Anyone who does not "have' the Holy Spirit does not belong to the body of Christ. (Rom 8:9)

But when the Holy Spirit indwells enoikeO, or dwells in oikeO en, He is an active participant in the economy of the house as a family member, not just present as a guest. He is involves in the decisions and activities of the house. We are walking in the Spirit , we are spiritual, when He is indwelling.
We are walking in the flesh, we are carnal, when we merely have Him and He is merely present, without us involving Him in our activities.
In the same way scriptre speaks of sin indwelling us when we do what sin works in us to do.

Rom 7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it [am doing it], but sin that dwelleth G3611 [is dwelling] in me.
Rom 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth G3611 [is dwelling] no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19
For the good that I would I do not [I am not doing]: but the evil which I would not, that I do [I am doing].
Rom 7:20
Now if I do [if I am doing] that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth [is dwelling] in me.

 

[Eli1]

With regard to what we inherited from Adam, I believe the particular term you are looking for is 'sin-nature' - what we inherited from Adam is the 'sin-nature' of man. We did not inherit sin itself from Adam - but rather, the 'sin-nature' that passed on from Adam. (the "fallen condition" of man) And, the term 'natural man' embodies the 'sin-nature' of man - because, that is the "natural" state of man. So, that is what 'natural man' is referring to.

Thank you Gary!
This is actually the best description of the ‘natural man’.
Totally agree.

 

[Eli1]

And to add to this @GaryA this is exactly the understanding we have of natural man in our church Bible studies.
We carry this ancient first sin in our corruption of bodies because obviously we’re not in the presence of God or the spiritual world except when Miracles happen but while everyone is affected by this inherited corruption and the separation from God that physical death represents, each person is only responsible for their own personal sins. Christ's sacrifice is understood as defeating sin and death, offering humanity the chance for redemption and restoration to a state of grace/mercy.

 

[GaryA]

Take note that Paul is writing to the Corinthians, one of the worst churches. He wrote 3 epistles to them with many warnings.

Was '3' a typo? Did you really mean '2'? Or, would you kindly tell me the name of the 3rd epistle that Paul wrote specifically-and-particularly to the Corinthians?

I know about '1 Corinthians' and '2 Corinthians' - never heard of '3 Corinthians'...

 

[Sipsey]

Adam, prio

Adam, prior to the fall, was a natural man. He was neither for nor against God. He did not have the indwelling Spirit. If he did, he would have rejected Satan's temptation. Adam was not a sinner until he disobeyed God.

Adam remained a natural man. The difference was that he became hostile to God and a sinner by nature.

Paul is speaking to believers in these passages-
1 Corinthians 3:1 (KJV)
[1] And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.


1 Corinthians 3:3-9

King James Version

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4559. Carnal- σαρκικός sarkikós; fem. sarkikḗ, neut. sarkikón, adj. from sárx (4561), flesh. Fleshly, carnal, pertaining to the flesh or body. Found only in the epistles.
(II) As implying weakness, frailty, imperfection; e.g., of persons as being carnal, worldly (1Co 3:1,3,4); of things, carnal, human, frail, transient, temporary (2Co 1:12; 10:4; Heb 7:16). Some MSS read sárkinos (4560) in 1Co 3:1; Heb 7:16 meaning made of flesh. Sarkikós means with tendency to satisfy the flesh, implying sinfulness, sinful propensity, carnal (Ro 7:14, under the influence of carnal desires); of things (1Pe 2:11, carnal desires, having their seat in the carnal nature).

 

[GaryA]

And to add to this @GaryA this is exactly the understanding we have of natural man in our church Bible studies.
We carry this ancient first sin in our corruption of bodies because obviously we’re not in the presence of God or the spiritual world except when Miracles happen but while everyone is affected by this inherited corruption and the separation from God that physical death represents, each person is only responsible for their own personal sins. Christ's sacrifice is understood as defeating sin and death, offering humanity the chance for redemption and restoration to a state of grace/mercy.

Using your wording, it would probably be better to say that we "carry" the corruption in our bodies and not the 'first sin'. The 'first sin' caused the corruption (or, brought it about) - and that is what has been carried down through history. We could say that it is the propensity to sin. However, the only [actual] 'sin' you "carry" is your own. Which is why you were "safe" as a baby/child until you actually committed your 'first sin'.

 

[Eli1]

Using your wording, it would probably be better to say that we "carry" the corruption in our bodies and not the 'first sin'. The 'first sin' caused the corruption (or, brought it about) - and that is what has been carried down through history. We could say that it is the propensity to sin. However, the only [actual] 'sin' you "carry" is your own. Which is why you were "safe" as a baby/child until you actually committed your 'first sin'.

Thank you again and this is how you do a proper Bible study, through questions and answers.
What you said here is also what is understood in the church I go to.
So, we’re not very different. All it takes is better communication.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Here's an interesting question. Was Jesus a natural man? I would say yes, but without a dead spirit as Adam had. By dead I mean fully alive, but separated from the life of God. Jesus had no such handicap.

 

[Eli1]

Here's an interesting question. Was Jesus a natural man? I would say yes, but without a dead spirit as Adam had. By dead I mean fully alive, but separated from the life of God. Jesus had no such handicap.

I agree with this.
Also post-resurrection Jesus had the spiritual body which Adam had but better and the spiritual body that we would hopefully have.
Because Adam’s body could not go through walls but it was immune to physical death due to eating from the Tree of Life.

 

[GaryA]

Thank you again and this is how you do a proper Bible study, through questions and answers.
What you said here is also what is understood in the church I go to.
So, we’re not very different. All it takes is better communication.

I would agree wholeheartedly that a discussion is usually always better than a debate...

Now, debate has its place; however, on CC, it is way overused, overblown, and most folks do not [even know how to] follow the rules for debates. (So, it just turns into a big argument and becomes totally useless to accomplish any good.)

 

[GaryA]

Here's an interesting question. Was Jesus a natural man? I would say yes, but without a dead spirit as Adam had. By dead I mean fully alive, but separated from the life of God. Jesus had no such handicap.

Based on the definition of 'natural man' that we are discussing - no - Jesus was not a 'natural man' - because, He did not have the 'sin-nature'.