Warning! Catholic church is a FALSE religion

[MahogonySnail]

If I was misunderstanding you and my questions were suggesting that you said something other than what you actually did say, you should have corrected me
immediately. You didn't. Instead, you tackled one of my questions as though my questions made complete sense & were right on track with the point you were trying
to make.

You can't really say what I should or shouldn't have done, or assume so.

If my question is so flawed, show the flaw. Clarify your original statement. Rephrasing the thought could make a world of difference.

I did show the flaw. I clarified my statement previously:

I did not say the bible differences "causes the difference in theology with protestants " I said their version makes it difficult when you debate with them.

You claimed that I said that the bible differences cause differences in theology with protestants. I did not say that all. I said the phrasing (not to mention any footnotes) in the Catholic bible makes it difficult when they aren't using exactly the same bible version.

 

[kujo313]

Pope Benedict said last year that the catholic church has the "exclusive on Salvation." He also said that the Protestants are disfunctional.

On pope JP2's desk was a declaration for him to sign declaring Mary to be co-Mediator with Jesus. How blasphemeus can you get?

Also, as far as interpretation goes, the leaders of the rcc can interpret Scripture, I've learned. That's not true at all. Jesus said to ask, seek and knock. "Ask" God.

I know a few "good" catholics. But unless they get born-again and accept Jesus as their Savior, they're going to be "good" people in Hell. Without Mary, God would've chosen another virgin. Without Jesus, there is no hope for mankind.

Finally, I find it funny that catholics take literally the bread and wine turns into the body and blood of Jesus. Yet, they don't pluck out their eyes nor cut off their hands. They pick and choose which parables to take literally and which to not.



To the catholics who read this: have you ever told a lie? You're a liar. Taken anything? Even the smallest thing that is not yours? You're a thief.
Die and face God with those charges. No amount of lit candles nor "Hail Mary's" nor scapulars will save you.
Only the One Mediator can save you! He paid the price for your sins on the Cross. Accept God's Lamb sacrifice just as God accepted man's in the Old Testament.

There is no other way.

 

[suaso]

Well, I believe you may be refering to Spe Salvi (Saved by hope [in Christ]), the latest encyclical by Pope Benedict. I have been told that as far as "exclusive on Salvation" goes, it is by Christ only that people are saved. That people who are saved only find salvation through Christ. The best way to do this has been through the Church, but the Church herself teaches, right now, that salvation is above and beyond our understanding, and coming from Christ, is possible to non-Catholic Christians. There is no "Catholics in heaven only" rule, if that is the understanding by some. As for him saying Protestants are "disfunctional," I think he may have said something more along the lines of "Protestantism is incomplete." Something disfunctional doesn't work at all, something incomplete works but could work more efficiently, which is an idea more in line with the nature of Church teaching on this aspect.

As for JP2, did he sign it? No. How more cautious can you get? There is a difference between popular ideas an standard, official teachings.

All Catholics are called to be born again...daily. We are to recognize are sinful nature and helplessness without Christ. We know that only God can be perfect, and though we are to strive for perfection, as mere humans we will fail at times, so we must constantly throw ourselves upon the mercy and love of Christ. There will be many Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, etc in hell who were "good people," no doubt about it...unfortunately.

It is a hard task to see when Jesus was telling a parable or speaking literally. Usually he prefaced his parables with something to indicate they were parables. As for John 6, he seemed fairly clear to us that he meant what he meant. He was so clear some people were disgusted at the suggestion and began to leave. Instead of saying "I did not mean it that way" he asked the remaining desciples if they woud also leave. He then later enforced this view at the last supper by saying "This is my Body" during the traditional Cedar meal. If it is for the individual to read scriptures and determine there meaning themselves, and then let this be the meaning we take, then what would give another the authority to tell us our meaning is wrong if we believe the Holy Spirit has lead us to this meaning? Further more, we have evidence of Christians taking this passage very litterally from the earliest surviving manuscripts of the early Christians (like the Didache which was written sometime before 100 AD [around the time of John's Gospel]). The Didache gives such detail on how to treat the Eucharist, how to take care not to let crubs fall upon the floor, because those Christians who wrote it believed it was as Jesus literally meant. There are no early manuscripts detailing Christians lopping off hands and feet to avoid sinning that I am aware of. Though of course, if my internet connection causes me to sin, I hope I have enough since to unplug it.

Am I a liar? Am I a theif? Am I human? Yes to these accusations. Only the blood of Christ saves us, no doubt. I hope no Catholics believe candles, scapulars (such itchy things to wear), or Ave's save them...if they do, they have been ill informed. It is certainly not an official teaching that these things offer salvation.

-peace

 

[MahogonySnail]

JP2 and Pope Benedict (I think) have also claimed that Muslims are Children of God (or words to those effects), even praying in Muslim Holy Places with the Muslim leaders. Now some Catholics defend this, who also believe that Muslims are going to heaven, but other Catholics think it is wrong.

The thing with John 6 is, if you read the verse in isolation it seems Christ did actually want them to eat His flesh. But if you read the whole chapter and even the previous one we get a better idea of what was going on. Jesus sometimes made shocking statements to shock his opponents. In this case, He knew they were following Him only for the bread and food which he had given them. So to shock them, he told them that they had to eat His flesh. But of course, no one in their right mind would take this to be literally, otherwise Jesus would be saying we should be cannibals. The ones who did take it literally left him, they thought Jesus was crazy. They were the ones whose minds were on their stomachs , and could not fathom Christ's spiritual truths. The ones who remained and did not leave Christ, did so because they were the ones who realised the spiritual truths behind what Jesus said, and they did not have their minds on their stomachs but on Christ's Person. This is the only possibility. Because to claim that those who stayed with Christ believed that Christ actually wanted them to eat His flesh, is to say they are cannibals. We might think that Jesus was actually telling them to eat his flesh, until we hit this verse after all those whose minds were on their stomachs left in disgust...where Jesus clarifies his statements as being spiritual in nature...

Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life.
So was Christ actually telling them to eat His own flesh? Of course not. To "eat" Christ's flesh, meant to believe in Him. Jesus clearly put the focus of spirit and life, upon His words, not upon a piece of bread or a piece of wine. Only the spirit and Christ's Words actually gives life, a piece of bread and wine is not spiritual, it is fleshly.


Frankly I'd really like it if Catholics are able to just stick to what the Bible says and what the Spirit says in their hearts, rather than all their latin mumbo jumbo, Nun so and so said this, Monk so and so said this, the Pope said this and the Church said that, throw in a few early church writings or apocrypha etc.

The funny thing is in my experience and most other christians, the Spirit has never , ever, said "you are in the wrong church, go become a Catholic".

 

[suaso]

The funny thing is in my experience and most other christians, the Spirit has never , ever, said "you are in the wrong church, go become a Catholic".

Not to nitpick, but that is what I have heard all the converts to the Catholic Faith who used to be Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, Pentecostal, etc say. They say the Spirit told them they were in the wrong church and that they needed to be Catholic. As I am sure there have been Catholics who have said the Spirit told them they were in the wrong church and they needed to become Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, Pentecostal, etc. That is why my experience and your experience and anyone elses experiences are merely...expereinces. They are nice and warm and feel good, but reality is not dependent upon how we feel about it. At any rate, who are you or I to determine what the Spirit has ever said to anyone unless we were there in their minds or hearts?

As for claiming Muslims are Children of God, this is actually a claim made in reference to all human beings. We do believe that all human beings being created by the Father are in fact God's children. I don't understand why this is a bad notion. Does God only love Christians? If he does not love non-Christians, then how does he call them to him? The grace one is given to believe and have faith in God comes from a loving Father who wants to see all of his children love him the same as he loves them. Some children will love their father and others will not. They are still his children. He created them. He loves his creation. He loves all of his children. To my knowledge no pope has prayed with Muslim leaders in a Muslim holy place. I am aware of a recent trip which Pope Benedict took to Turkey. There they have the Hagia Sophia. It was first an formost a Byzantine church belonging to the Greek Orthodox, but it was captured by Muslims and turned into a Mosque. Even futher down the road in history this building was turned into a museum as it is now. The Muslims tried to cover up the Christian art work, and some of it is still visible. At any rate, both Muslims and Christians I believe are forbidden to show any open act of prayer or piety in the Hagia Sophia, but people were flipping out because the Pope appeared to be praying silently with his eyes closed while standing in the nave of what used to be a Christian church. The outrage was that some Muslims were still highly unhappy about his recent remarks (which were taken very much out of context) at Regensburg, and a Christian praying in a place where they were forbidden to pray would have caused further unrest in a Muslim nation.

 

[roaringkitten]

Does God only love Christians?


"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." 1 John 4:10

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16


"And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." 2 Corinthians 5:15

Anyone who told you that God only loves Christians is lying.

 

[MahogonySnail]

We do believe that all human beings being created by the Father are in fact God's children. I don't understand why this is a bad notion. Does God only love Christians?

Of course God loves everyone. But not everyone is His child. The bible teaches that only those with the Spirit are children of God. There are also people who are the devil's children, as Christ called them.

To my knowledge no pope has prayed with Muslim leaders in a Muslim holy place.

Here are some articles which show otherwise.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/11/30/pope_visits_blue_mosque_in_istanbul/

Please note, the Pope prayed with the Islamic cleric, and also in a similar manner to copy the Muslims.. (is the Pope a muslim?)


ISTANBUL, Turkey --Pope Benedict XVI joined an Islamic cleric in prayers under the towering dome of Istanbul's most famous mosque Thursday in a powerful gesture seeking to transform his image among Muslims from adversary to peacemaker.


At the mosque, the pope removed his shoes and put on white slippers. Then he walked beside Mustafa Cagrici, the head cleric of Istanbul. Facing the holy city of Mecca -- in the tradition of Islamic worship -- Cagrici said: "Now I'm going to pray." Benedict, too, bowed his head and his lips moved as if reciting words.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Not to nitpick, but that is what I have heard all the converts to the Catholic Faith who used to be Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, Pentecostal, etc say. They say the Spirit told them they were in the wrong church and that they needed to be Catholic. As I am sure there have been Catholics who have said the Spirit told them they were in the wrong church and they needed to become Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, Pentecostal, etc. That is why my experience and your experience and anyone elses experiences are merely...expereinces. They are nice and warm and feel good, but reality is not dependent upon how we feel about it. At any rate, who are you or I to determine what the Spirit has ever said to anyone unless we were there in their minds or hearts?

Sure it is very subjective. But it really questions the validity of statements made by the Pope that Protestant churches are somehow lacking something if they are not part of the Catholic Church or "Mother Church" as it is sometimes called, if the Spirit does indeed tell certain Catholics to leave. Perhaps God is not so fussy about which particular denomination a person is part of? Except where it concerns His individual revelation and will for a person?

 

[suaso]

"http://www.boston.com/news/world/mid...e_in_istanbul/"

Thank you for this, I hate to be oblivious to facts! Now that I know that to my knowledge that BXVI has prayed with Muslims, I still think no differently of the Church. The article does do little to say what they people prayed for or even how the pray. It seems to me to have been something like being in proximity to one another while silently praying internally, like when they hold moments of silence in classrooms: "The pope's minute of prayer was done in silence" so I don't know if I would deem this as praying "together" as much as praying in the presence of someone else who is praying. As a Christian, if was in a Mosque, I'd definately be praying silently to myself that the Muslims find Christ.

"Sure it is very subjective. But it really questions the validity of statements made by the Pope that Protestant churches are somehow lacking something if they are not part of the Catholic Church or "Mother Church" as it is sometimes called, if the Spirit does indeed tell certain Catholics to leave" What I meant is that people say the Spirit tells to to do one thing or the other, and that we can not be sure if the Spirit is indeed telling them to do these things or if it simply their own will being ascribed to that of the Spirit's promtings. This could be true for either case of one switching to another. But then again, God's ways are mysterious and the Spirit does what the Spirit wills and it is not always within our understanding.

 

[MahogonySnail]

What do you think about the phrase "everyone is God's child". Have you ever read scriptures which indicate differently? It talks about the difference between God's children and the Devil's children in 1 John I think it is.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Some Catholics I've spoken with about the praying in the mosque thing think the Pope was wrong and shouldn't have done it. These seem to be very traditional catholic. I mean apparently that kind of thing was banned outright a few hundred years ago , probably an offense punishable by excommunication. Others have said that the Pope is not infallible, he made a mistake. Others support the Pope. We can't judge. It just seems that the motives or reason for him doing it was to try to fix up his mistake about what he said about muslims.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Catholics call Mary the Queen of Heaven. Where is this in the bible?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Heaven

Benedict XVI noted that Mary's acceptance of the divine will is the ultimate reason, she is Queen of Heaven. Because of her humble and unconditional acceptance of God's will "God exalted her over all other creatures, and Christ crowned her Queen of heaven and earth." [9]


Where is this statement that God exalted Mary over all other creatures in the bible?

Queen of Heaven in the bible in Jeremiah only refers to to Asherah a Caananite idol and goddess worshipped in ancient Israel and Judah .

 

[suaso]

I hesistate to try and explain things which I myself am not prepared to do so adequately. While I believe the things I see on Television are not images of my imagination but have a scientific reason to how the TV functions to display images that I do not yet understand, I accept it on faith one might say that the TV works within the bounds of reality and reason without my full understanding of how. As for the Queen of Heaven title, that is one of the things that I currently accept on faith without currently possessing the level of full understanding of how/why until I actually do understand. If I may, I will offer an explanation which may be met with plenty of disagreement by many.

Mary is the mother of God, Jesus being the incarnation of the Divine Word in the flesh (Jesus is God : Mary is the mother of Jesus : Mary is the mother of God). Mary is the mother of God and she is the daughter of God the Father, as a creation of God. These two relationships make her the Mother of God through her role as Mother to Jesus the Son, and Daughter of God through her role as a creation of the Father. Now, as it is said in scripture that she concieved of the Holy Spirit, the Church proclaims that she is in a way Espoused to the Holy Spirit. So, she has the unique relationship to the Trinity that no other human has ever had: She is the Mother of God, a Child of God (Daughter), and is Espoused of God. Naturally, God is the King of Heaven (Jesus is King of King and Lord of Lords).
Now, as God is King of Heaven, Mary's relationship to the Trinity is what makes her Queen of Heaven. All kings in history have had mothers, and their mothers have been queens even while their children were in power. An example being the Queen Mother of England despite there being the ruling king or queen. If Mary is in a special way espoused to the Holy Spirit who is God and is in fact King of Heaven, then for this reason Mary could have the title Queen of Heaven. In the Hebrew tradition, I have heard, the mother of the king was considered the queen. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus is the King...kings are only ever born of queens...ergo...
Of course, in the ancient customs, the queen was not equal to the king, and the queen did not rule of her own athority as we are now accostomed to thinking of queens. The is important to note as the Queenship of Mary is not in any way equal to the Kingship of Christ. This is where a lot of misunderstanding can occur, that people might think that the Catholic belief in Mary's Queenship puts her with equality with God, when in fact it certainly does not.

Also, the wikipedia link which was provided has this as an explanation:

"In the New Testament, the title has several biblical sources. Mary is mother of the messianic king. Luke 1:32 says of Jesus, He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David. He will rule over the house of Jacob forever and his reign will be without end. It is therefore held in Christianity, that the throne of King David has passed to Jesus The biblical precedent of ancient Israel is that the mother of the king becomes the Queen Mother. Since Jesus is heavenly king, of the lineage of David and Solomon, many see Mary as Queen Mother."

As for everyone being God's Child, I can only day that the Devil created nothing on earth. Satan has not willed anything into existence as God did, because satan is merely a creature. God's role in creation makes him the Father of all creatures, and for this reason, all creatures are subject to him. Some of these creatures deny him (satan) and choose to follow their own wills or the wills of other creatures, denying the legacy which God wants for thim through sin. They are his children in the sense that he created them. Not all children inherit from their fathers, especially those children who choose to make themselves bastards by following satan.

 

[suaso]

(I couldn't edit the original post because of time restrictions)

Also to be considered for the exaultation of Mary above others is the Magnificat: (Luke 1: 46-55)

My soul doth magnify the Lord :
and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
For he hath regarded : the lowliness of his handmaiden.
For behold, from henceforth : all generations shall call me blessed.
For he that is mighty hath magnified me : and holy is his Name.
And his mercy is on them that fear him : throughout all generations.
He hath shewed strength with his arm : he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He hath put down the mighty from their seat : and hath exalted the humble and meek.
He hath filled the hungry with good things : and the rich he hath sent empty away.
He remembering his mercy hath holpen his servant Israel : as he promised to our forefathers, Abraham and his seed for ever

 

[kujo313]

Mary was quoting the Old Testament.
She called God her Saviour . She knew she needed a Savior.

Jesus, in His sermon on the mount, used the same word, "blessed", as Mary used in Luke 1. The SAME blessed are other people!
In Acts, there is NOTHING to show that any one person referred anybody to Mary. It all points to Jesus.
On the cross, Jesus was talking only to John. John took Mary as his own mother as James described the meaning of "true and undefileable religion". Peter, on the other hand, was more to represent all believers. He called believers "living stones" and as Jesus as the Cornerstone. Catholics call Peter the cornerstone.

Overall, there is way too much emphasis in the catholic denomination towards other people. There is ONE MEDIATOR. But the catholic people has been pressuring their leader to declare Mary as co-Mediator.
See? Mary didn't want to be in the spotlight. But for years, catholics keep lifting her up with prayers, "sightings" and such. Many of the deceived would travel hundreds of miles just to see an "image" of her in a grilled cheese sandwich and then they pull out their prayer beads and pray to her.

Why not just crucify Jesus again?

Repent.

The reason there are so many Protestant denominations is because the catholic denomination, the supposed "true church", is so flawed with man-made ideas that in the spirit, people KNOW that there's something wrong.

And there is.

(I couldn't edit the original post because of time restrictions)

Also to be considered for the exaultation of Mary above others is the Magnificat: (Luke 1: 46-55)

My soul doth magnify the Lord :
and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
For he hath regarded : the lowliness of his handmaiden.
For behold, from henceforth : all generations shall call me blessed.
For he that is mighty hath magnified me : and holy is his Name.
And his mercy is on them that fear him : throughout all generations.
He hath shewed strength with his arm : he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He hath put down the mighty from their seat : and hath exalted the humble and meek.
He hath filled the hungry with good things : and the rich he hath sent empty away.
He remembering his mercy hath holpen his servant Israel : as he promised to our forefathers, Abraham and his seed for ever

 

[kujo313]

KJV Stong's References

Luke 1:46 "magnify" =

1) to make great, magnify
1a) metaph. to make conspicuous
2) to deem or declare great
2a) to esteem highly, to extol, laud, celebrate
3) to get glory and praise

1:48 "call" "blessed"

AV - call blessed 1, count happy 1; 2
1) to pronounce blessed

Can't seem to find "magnify" in Luke 1:49 as the RCC sees it. Not in Strong's. I can see that it only refers to "done great things for me" and cross references it with Psalm 71:19 and Psalm 126:2-3.

Catholics are making their "god" in their own image. They're making Mary a lot bigger than she was made to be.

No wonder there's so many Protestant denominations.

 

[juspekatzus]

they worship the pope and other idols, prayer beads, paintings, jesus birth mother[the seed of david,] rather then worship the true saviour,and the only holy father. lets resue these people!

 

[lifetime]

I'm just shaking my head. The people criticizing Catholics here are all brainwashed.

 

[suaso]

There may be a chance that you may be missing the point of the role of saints (among whom Mary is a saint, only considered to be more important than the other saints because of her relation ship to God that has been more unique than any other human being ever).

The role of the saints in the Catholic and Orthodoxs churches is to essentially bare witness to God. For instance, St. Peter bears witness to God by first preaching the gospels, then by leading the apostles, then by being martyred for the faith. St. Stephan (see Acts) bore witness to God by being stoned to death for his belief in Christ. St. Mary, the Mother of God, bears witness to God by saying 'yes' to his will that she give birth to the Savior of the world. I can go on forever. St. Lawrence refused to offer up the "treasures" of the churches to the Roman emporer, stating that the treasure was the people themselves, so he was roasted alive while bearing witness that the Christian is in the world but not of it. St. Patrick sacrificed a comfortable life to bring the Gospel to the Celtic pagans. St. Boniface travels to Gemany, cuts down a tree believed to be sacred to the pagan god Thor to prove that God is the only God and that no pagan deities have any power over Christ, leading to the conversion of an entire pagan people. St. Francis bears witness to Christian poverty by making himself meek and living under the appearence of a beggar despite being born into nobility to remind the people that the only real concern is that of life eternal. He forsakes wealth to establish an order that preaches the gospel even to the Saracens. St. Meinrad of Switzerland devotes his life to prayer until robber come seeking gold that they believe he has, and when they demand his treasure, he says "I will give you my treasure" and begins to recite the Lord's prayer, giving witness to God by showing these men what true treasure is. Yet they kill him in anger because they do not want the treasure that is Christ but only want material things...

I could continue to compile a small work of hagiography but I won't. The point is that the Saints are, for Catholics and the Orthodox, holy men and women who have lived their lives for Christ - even to the point of being killed for Christ. They are supurb examples for humans on how to follow Christ in a world that does not want to follow Christ. We believe that death is not the end of life. Those in heaven are alive with Christ. Their prayers rise up before God like incense, as it says in Revelations. Why are they praying in heaven? They are already in heaven. Could they not be praying for us? You may ask me to pray for you, and I will, and it will be of benefit for you and I to pray for one another, but surely the prayers of a Godly man or woman are more beneficial...especially the prayers of those dead who are alive with Christ.

(I still fail to see what the obsession over "images" of Mary in grilled cheese sandwhiches is. Seriously. The Catholic Church has never made any statement that any 'miraculos' images that 'appear' in food are anything more tha shapes in clouds - the result of too creative an imagination. This is a point that ought not have any mention in a serious discussion of Catholicsm. It is not pertanent to the actual beliefs of the Church. There are no Church doctrines or teaccings that mention cases such as this, so cases such as this are meaningless in relation to the argument at hand.
I could say: Bill Roy is a theif...and he has sideburns! The fact that Bill Roy has sideburns is not important. Sideburns don't make Bill Roy a theif. Roger Buck is a hero for rescuing those three children from the house fire...and he flosses daily. The fact that Roger Buck flosses daily has nothing to do with his heroism. The fact that some people think they see and image of anything or anyone in a peice of toast has absolutely nothing to do with what the Church actually belives concerning faith and salvation)

The point of any saint, especially Mary, is to lead people and point them to CHRIST. No one is supposed to like St. Thomas Aquinas because he was ridiculously smart. They like him because, using his extreme intelligence, he explained in a very intellectual way how it is not unreasonable to believe in God. He pointed to Christ through his work by showing to people how it is not foolish to believe in Christ. As for Mary, she pointed to Christ all the time. At Cana she said to the servants: "Do whatever he tells you" while telling her son, Jesus, that the wine had run out. "My soul magnifies the Lord" - exactly. She helps people know God by giving birth to the savior. Jesus is the Word made flesh...he had to be made flesh, and he was made flesh through birth - and Mary was his mother. Talk about leading people not to oneself but to God, she quite literally birthed the savior, and for the first time ever humans saw, spoke to, ate with, and were healed by God incarnate. That is why she is so special to us. That is why she is blessed among women. No other woman has ever done that. She is not worshipped as a goddess. She is recognized exactly for the role she played in salvation history: birthing the Savior of the World. When you find any other human being who has done that, let me know.

 

[suaso]

Also, the "everyone is leaving Catholicism to form thosands of denominations so it must be because Catholicism is wrong" is hardly a good proof that the Catholic Church is somehow wrong so much that it is proof that no one seems to agree on anything so there must be thousands of denominations. Quantity is never ever ever an indication of quality...it isn't even a valid argument.