Warning! Catholic church is a FALSE religion

[Baptistrw]

Baptism - So Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglicans - all who insist on infant baptism - aren't Christians? Infant baptism and adult baptisms are both mentioned in the Scriptures. While I am not a proponent of infant baptism myself, the issue can be argued either way. Some protestants demand baptism after conversion. Is that not a form of "works"?

Penance - Similar to what we protestants refer to as repentance. Our confession of sins is not supposed to be just a one time thing. People like to quote 1 John 1:9, but they don't seem to realize the verb tense indicates an ongoing confession. If we don't continue to repent, is our faith true? If we do continue to repent, is that not a type of work?

Eucharist - Somewhat similar to our protestant communion, with a major difference being that we treat it as symbolic rather than believing we are literally eating Christ. This is an issue where I am also very critical of the RCC. Despite my critical viewpoint on the Eucharist, I'm far from convinced that all RCs are non-Christian.

If a person is born-again, but lives his/her life without reading or meditating on the Scriptures, praying, fellowshipping with believers, or proclaiming the gospel, is he/she a Christian? If he/she does do all of this, don't they qualify as works?

Faith without works is dead. Works without faith is worthless.

Infant baptism is NEVER mentioned in the Scriptures in any place. Baptism after salvation is a step of obedience in allowing one to display publicly their unity in Christ via His death, burial, and resurrection, an infant a few days old cannot believe the gospel. Repentance and Penance are far different. Penance requires good deeds to pay for the bad, repentance is changing ones mind about sin. The eucharist is the reoffering of Christ for sins, which is blasphemy because Christ was offered once for all Hebrews 10:10. I have never met a Catholic who was Christian, the taking of the mass is a work that a catholic believes will ultimately save them, as their cathechism will show.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I wonder if these verses apply re: catholics:

Luk 9:50 And Jesus said to him, Do not prevent him, for he who is not against us is for us.

Mar 9:40 For he who is not against us is for us.

Despite all your complaints that Catholics do this or believe that..I do know that despite there being 4 protestant and 1 Roman Catholic churches in my area, it is only ever people from the Roman Catholic church handing out flyers in my street that a ) God loves us , and b) Repent and Believe in Christ to be saved. The protestant ones don't seem to care about evangelism in their local area.

 

[Baptistrw]

I wonder if these verses apply re: catholics:

Luk 9:50 And Jesus said to him, Do not prevent him, for he who is not against us is for us.

Mar 9:40 For he who is not against us is for us.

Despite all your complaints that Catholics do this or believe that..I do know that despite there being 4 protestant and 1 Roman Catholic churches in my area, it is only ever people from the Roman Catholic church handing out flyers in my street that a ) God loves us , and b) Repent and Believe in Christ to be saved. The protestant ones don't seem to care about evangelism in their local area.

If that's the way to discern true faith then the Jehovahs Witnesses got us all beat, 100 hours a month doing door to door evangelism. I know some Christians who never do that much in a lifetime.

 

[MahogonySnail]

And that's the problem Baptistrw. While ya'll so worried about whether a person is baptised properly or not, these sects (cults?) are door to door knocking. I couldn't fault what was said on the flyer, let's put it that way. Despite the Roman Catholic church as an institution and organisation, its official stance on issues... on the ground I believe a lot of Catholic are genuine christians. Probably just as much as any Baptist churches which are almost cult-like in the way they demand a person be baptised in a certain way.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Remember the issue of who is christian and who is not is not a black and white issue,

Despite them being wrong on certain beliefs, many catholics say and believe that Jesus is Lord, which shows they have the Spirit:

1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says Jesus is a curse, and that no one can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

A non-christian, satan-worshipper, etc, is not able to say Jesus is Lord and mean it.

There is nothing in the bible that says you have to believe in a "faith alone" doctrine to be saved.

 

[Baptistrw]

Well, the Catholics pronounced an anathema on anyone who's not a Catholic and the only way to salvation is through the mother church the Catholic church, so I find it hard to consider them as brothers in the Lord when they would say I'm condemned to hell. Especially when the Catholic church is the w***e of Babylon in Rev. 17 and has killed millions of Christians and Jews throughout it's bloody history.

 

[MahogonySnail]

That said, there's many "Mother Teresa" type Catholics who I don't believe are christian. They don't believe Jesus is the only way to be saved.
c.f.
http://www.challies.com/archives/articles/the-myth-of-mot.php

 

[Baptistrw]

Remember the issue of who is christian and who is not is not a black and white issue,

Despite them being wrong on certain beliefs, many catholics say and believe that Jesus is Lord, which shows they have the Spirit:

1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says Jesus is a curse, and that no one can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

A non-christian, satan-worshipper, etc, is not able to say Jesus is Lord and mean it.

There is nothing in the bible that says you have to believe in a "faith alone" doctrine to be saved.

If you hold to a gospel of works which is anything else than a gospel of faith, Paul says you are accursed. One can believe in any "doctrine" they want, but it doesn't mean they're saved, and anything else than faith alone is not a true gospel.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Well, the Catholics pronounced an anathema on anyone who's not a Catholic and the only way to salvation is through the mother church the Catholic church, so I find it hard to consider them as brothers in the Lord when they would say I'm condemned to hell. Especially when the Catholic church is the w***e of Babylon in Rev. 17 and has killed millions of Christians and Jews throughout it's bloody history.

That's completely untrue, I suggest you read up some on Catholic doctrine. In fact today there would be more protestant fundamentalists telling catholics they are going to hell than the other way around.


This is what the R.C. church says about non-catholics:
VATICAN II

Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly condemned. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church -- for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. . . . It remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. . . . Our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches [Churches refers to Orthodox; Communities refers to Protestant], are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body.

 

[MahogonySnail]

If you hold to a gospel of works which is anything else than a gospel of faith, Paul says you are accursed. One can believe in any "doctrine" they want, but it doesn't mean they're saved, and anything else than faith alone is not a true gospel.

And Catholics do hold to a gospel of faith, as it said on the flyer I was given. It said nothing about working for your salvation without faith, or keeping the law for salvation. It said simply, "believe and you will be saved".

There is actually no verse in scripture that says the true gospel is "faith alone'. This catchphrase was coined by protestants, but needs to be understood in the right context. In fact scripture says the direct opposite to "salvation by faith alone" :

Jas 2:24 You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

i.e.
"a man is justified by works not by faith only".

 

[Baptistrw]

That's completely untrue, I suggest you read up some on Catholic doctrine. In fact today there would be more protestant fundamentalists telling catholics they are going to hell than the other way around.


This is what the R.C. church says about non-catholics:
VATICAN II

Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly condemned. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church -- for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. . . . It remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. . . . Our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches [Churches refers to Orthodox; Communities refers to Protestant], are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body.

No one is justified by faith in baptism. One is justified by faith in Christ.

 

[Baptistrw]

And Catholics do hold to a gospel of faith, as it said on the flyer I was given. It said nothing about working for your salvation without faith, or keeping the law for salvation. It said simply, "believe and you will be saved".

There is actually no verse in scripture that says the true gospel is "faith alone'. This catchphrase was coined by protestants, but needs to be understood in the right context. In fact scripture says the direct opposite to "salvation by faith alone" :

Jas 2:24 You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

i.e.
"a man is justified by works not by faith only".

You're taking that out of context, a man is justified by faith that produces works, not by the works. Which is what that passage is talking about, it's an apologetic against those in the church who claimed to be Christians but their works said otherwise.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So that doesn't say faith alone?

 

[MahogonySnail]

No one is justified by faith in baptism. One is justified by faith in Christ.

It's an easy phrase to confuse.. but baptism here is not the object of their faith, but Christ. Did you miss this parts : "For men who believe in Christ ", "and who grow up believing in Christ ". By the way there are plenty of Baptists and Protestants alike who believe a person isn't saved unless they are baptised.

So I hope you can rest easy Baptistrw knowing that Catholics don't condemn protestants and baptists alike to hell.

 

[carpetmanswife]

James 2: 18 Yea , a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works , and i will shew thee my faith by my works. .. hey im just sayin...

 

[MahogonySnail]

You're taking that out of context, a man is justified by faith that produces works, not by the works. Which is what that passage is talking about, it's an apologetic against those in the church who claimed to be Christians but their works said otherwise.

Yes not by the works alone without the faith. But the phrase "faith alone" can be mistaken to mean "justified by faith without any works to show for it".

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So that doesn't say faith alone?

It doesn't actually say "faith alone", it says you aren't saved by works. But that doesn't say faith is without works, i.e. "faith alone". From James we know that faith alone doesn't save because true faith is shown by works.

Wesley hits the nail on the head with this apparent contradiction nicely:

Jas 2:24 Ye see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only - St. Paul, on the other band, declares, "A man is justified by faith," and not by works, Rom_3:28. And yet there is no contradiction between the apostles: because, They do not speak of the same faith: St. Paul speaking of living faith; St. James here, of dead faith. They do not speak of the same works: St. Paul speaking of works antecedent to faith; St. James, of works subsequent to it.

 

[Baptistrw]

Yes not by the works alone without the faith. But the phrase "faith alone" can be mistaken to mean "justified by faith without any works to show for it".




It doesn't actually say "faith alone", it says you aren't saved by works. But that doesn't say faith is without works, i.e. "faith alone". From James we know that faith alone doesn't save because true faith is shown by works.

Wesley hits the nail on the head with this apparent contradiction nicely:

Jas 2:24 Ye see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only - St. Paul, on the other band, declares, "A man is justified by faith," and not by works, Rom_3:28. And yet there is no contradiction between the apostles: because, They do not speak of the same faith: St. Paul speaking of living faith; St. James here, of dead faith. They do not speak of the same works: St. Paul speaking of works antecedent to faith; St. James, of works subsequent to it.

Yes indeed. But the Catholic church teaches that works are required for justification, see the Catechism 1987-1995, 1262-1274, 1247-1249, 1212, 1392, 2010, 183, 1129, 1815, 2002 for a few references. Not that they are required to prove their faith to be alive.

 

[MahogonySnail]

So since Paul is speaking of living faith , we could add more meaning to this passage (in bold) thanks to Wesley:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith (a real, living faith, which is shown by works, c.f. James) ; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works , lest any man should boast.


I think that interpretation is much more consistent with James's teaching and the scripture's focus on works, than this:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith (alone, without any works at all.. (i.e. a dead faith) ) ; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


We also know "faith alone" which is attributed to Luther, who reacted to the corrupt indulgence and works-based Roman Catholicism of the time, did not in any way mean we are saved merely by a mental belief.

This article explains nicely the common mistake of modern-day protestantism in its turning "faith alone" to mean something which it does not, that we can be saved without anything that shows that faith:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1858

 

[MahogonySnail]

Yes indeed. But the Catholic church teaches that works are required for justification, see the Catechism 1987-1995, 1262-1274, 1247-1249, 1212, 1392, 2010, 183, 1129, 1815, 2002 for a few references. Not that they are required to prove their faith to be alive.

In a sense.. works are required for justification , the works that accompany faith. That's what James says. But you could be right there, that the Catholic's understanding of how faith and works fit together is wrong. The thing about Ephesians is that it says faith and salvation is a gift. The works which accompany faith must also be a gift, ie they are works not of our own merit but due to God's working in us.
Yet, since this is only a matter of formal doctrine, I believe that we'll find the heart and life of the Catholic and the Protestant christian to be very similar if they both have a living faith in Christ.... I think that is sufficient.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Anyway I've come across different types of catholics before, some nice, some not.., there's those types as I think were the ones handing out flyers in my street, that aren't much different from a protestant. Then there are catholic who follow the religion but not Christ, they are easy to tell because they don't accept protestants as being christian. Then there are catholic who are more like pantheist than not, they believe everyone is saved including Muslim etc. It's almost the opposite end of the spectrum to saying that only Catholic are saved. But as an organisation at the official level, it is completely messed up.

 

[MahogonySnail]

It doesn't actually say "faith alone", it says you aren't saved by works. But that doesn't say faith is without works, i.e. "faith alone". From James we know that faith alone doesn't save because true faith is shown by works.

By the way I'm not saying a person is only justified after they have works to show for it. I don't believe James is saying that either. Wasn't Abraham justified the moment he believed God's promise?. This was before Abraham had works to show his faith.
But I think James talks about the works completing or fulfilling the faith:
Jas 2:22 Do you see how faith worked with his works, and from the works faith was made complete?