Was Erasmus one of the greatest scholars of his day?

[Nehemiah6]

it's quite famous ... just google Luther/Erasmus dispute.

Google only talks about where they differed on free will. And even among Christians the Reformed idea is generally rejected. There would be no need for the Gospel, if a sinner could not freely respond to it under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. But Christ already made it plain that believing on Him is a DECISION.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:16) ... He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18) As you can see, the Reformed idea is contradicted by Christ, who is the final authority.

There is also one article which says that Erasmus did not get into doctrinal issues but focused on simple faith and piety. But he did believe in justification by grace through faith according to another article. However in the end only God knows whether his simple faith had saved him. His focus was on the correct Greek NT and there he did something which was outstanding. Even children have simple faith in Christ though they know very little about doctrines.

 

[Evmur]

Google only talks about where they differed on free will. And even among Christians the Reformed idea is generally rejected. There would be no need for the Gospel, if a sinner could not freely respond to it under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. But Christ already made it plain that believing on Him is a DECISION.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:16) ... He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18) As you can see, the Reformed idea is contradicted by Christ, who is the final authority.

There is also one article which says that Erasmus did not get into doctrinal issues but focused on simple faith and piety. But he did believe in justification by grace through faith according to another article. However in the end only God knows whether his simple faith had saved him. His focus was on the correct Greek NT and there he did something which was outstanding. Even children have simple faith in Christ though they know very little about doctrines.

well good Nehemiah that's what the argument is all about, I do not understand from the scriptures you have quoted that I may choose or that I have any freewill in the matter.

What I see is that when the gospel is preached in power, the Holy Ghost falls upon people and they do believe.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You can hear this stuff preached in almost every evangelical pulpit every week ... but the vast multitude of believers neither pay heed to it nor are they free indeed.

... I don't blame the people I blame the teaching. It is backslidden preaching, preaching man's will, man's choosings.

And if you say they are the preachings of Christ, why do the multitudes not flock to it? why is there so little discipleship?

“You can hear this stuff preached in almost every evangelical pulpit every week ... but the vast multitude of believers neither pay heed to it nor are they free indeed.”

yes exactly hardly anyone believes him

“I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, ( This is for a believer in Jesus )

If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:26, 31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The words of Christ aren’t acceptable to many Christian’s brother that’s the point many don’t believe him and many others won’t even acknowledge what he said is truth that sets us free .

“And if you say they are the preachings of Christ, why do the multitudes not flock to it? why is there so little discipleship?”

It’s not the truth that people flock to brother it’s the false message that brings praise and many followers

“Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.


Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:22-23, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and what pews do you hear “ this stuff “ preached all the time and what is “this stuff ?”

the gospel ?

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m not to sure you hear the gospel of the kingdom preached hardly anywhere from any pew to be honest

Or that many preachers are just sharing the things he taught in the gospel , those are the things Jesus said will set men free of sins dominion over them

the whole point is many refuse to believe what Jesus the lord and savior the judge of all mankind said will save thier souls.

We have to hear the truth that Jesus came to give us in order to believe it , many hear it and reject it . But I mean

“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬


He’s told and shown us and then said believe and you’ll be saved but it’s not believable to many because they’ve heard other things

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i am not sure what you mean by “ this stuff “ I’m talking about the gospel the word of agod that he said will save us

 

[Evmur]

“You can hear this stuff preached in almost every evangelical pulpit every week ... but the vast multitude of believers neither pay heed to it nor are they free indeed.”

yes exactly hardly anyone believes him

“I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, ( This is for a believer in Jesus )

If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:26, 31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The words of Christ aren’t acceptable to many Christian’s brother that’s the point many don’t believe him and many others won’t even acknowledge what he said is truth that sets us free .

“And if you say they are the preachings of Christ, why do the multitudes not flock to it? why is there so little discipleship?”

It’s not the truth that people flock to brother it’s the false message that brings praise and many followers

“Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.


Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:22-23, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and what pews do you hear “ this stuff “ preached all the time and what is “this stuff ?”

the gospel ?

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m not to sure you hear the gospel of the kingdom preached hardly anywhere from any pew to be honest

Or that many preachers are just sharing the things he taught in the gospel , those are the things Jesus said will set men free of sins dominion over them

the whole point is many refuse to believe what Jesus the lord and savior the judge of all mankind said will save thier souls.

We have to hear the truth that Jesus came to give us in order to believe it , many hear it and reject it . But I mean

“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬


He’s told and shown us and then said believe and you’ll be saved but it’s not believable to many because they’ve heard other things

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i am not sure what you mean by “ this stuff “ I’m talking about the gospel the word of agod that he said will save us

By "this stuff" I mean trying to apply the gospel to the human mind, the mind of the flesh, human emotions. Trying to get the human mind to believe, to decide, to choose.

There is nothing wrong with God's word, nothing wrong with the gospel .... there is nothing in man which enables him to choose, to decide. You say there is, I say there isn't.

My side of this argument has been rejected [practically] by the modern church, I accept that fact. We see the results of this rejection all around us.

You blame the people, I blame the method of preaching.

In thee terrible dark times people are in trouble, they look to the church, and the church is failing them ... just tell me it isn't so.

But I do see hopeful signs.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

well good Nehemiah that's what the argument is all about, I do not understand from the scriptures you have quoted that I may choose or that I have any freewill in the matter.

What I see is that when the gospel is preached in power, the Holy Ghost falls upon people and they do believe.

“You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free.

( one option ) But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh;

( another option ) rather, serve one another humbly in love.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭NIV‬‬

By "this stuff" I mean trying to apply the gospel to the human mind, the mind of the flesh, human emotions. Trying to get the human mind to believe, to decide, to choose.

There is nothing wrong with God's word, nothing wrong with the gospel .... there is nothing in man which enables him to choose, to decide. You say there is, I say there isn't.

My side of this argument has been rejected [practically] by the modern church, I accept that fact. We see the results of this rejection all around us.

You blame the people, I blame the method of preaching.

In thee terrible dark times people are in trouble, they look to the church, and the church is failing them ... just tell me it isn't so.

But I do see hopeful signs.

“By "this stuff" I mean trying to apply the gospel to the human mind, the mind of the flesh, human emotions. Trying to get the human mind to believe, to decide, to choose.”

was jesus not preaching to humans for thier salvation ? Were those converted by Peter in acts two not humans ? Everyone ever saved is a human they are saved like this

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God created humans to understand and operate through words

if we don’t hear something we can’t believe it . Man operates through words if you eant a person to have a choice you have to tell them they have a choice like this

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:


therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if I then respond to God “ I have no choice “ we aren’t listening to him he just gave them a choice he explained that of they obeyed his law they would live and be blessed but if they rejected his law they would die and be cursed then he told them choose life that you may live

my point is this is what creates a choice for people you have to hear the options then inherently you have that choice

If we are convinced “ we can’t choose “ we’ve already lost the fight before a blow was even thrown . All because we believe we can’t choose anything . Imagine raising a child “ you have no choice if you do wrong or right hopefully nothing bad will happen because if you stand in the road it’s not your choice you have no choice to move out of the way of traffic “

The only thing keeping anyone from choosing life is they are convinced they have no choice . The reason is they won’t listen to what Jesus told them makes them free we can hear it a million times but if we reject it it’s not going to help if we let it into our heart is broken humans Christ will bring us to life and cleanse away that corrupt part

we can’t change from who we are if we’re convinced we’re not capable with his word . Those humans your talking about need to hear the gospel and let it be true that’s what sets us free

 

[Evmur]

“You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free.

( one option ) But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh;

( another option ) rather, serve one another humbly in love.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“By "this stuff" I mean trying to apply the gospel to the human mind, the mind of the flesh, human emotions. Trying to get the human mind to believe, to decide, to choose.”

was jesus not preaching to humans for thier salvation ? Were those converted by Peter in acts two not humans ? Everyone ever saved is a human they are saved like this

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God created humans to understand and operate through words

if we don’t hear something we can’t believe it . Man operates through words if you eant a person to have a choice you have to tell them they have a choice like this

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:


therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if I then respond to God “ I have no choice “ we aren’t listening to him he just gave them a choice he explained that of they obeyed his law they would live and be blessed but if they rejected his law they would die and be cursed then he told them choose life that you may live

my point is this is what creates a choice for people you have to hear the options then inherently you have that choice

If we are convinced “ we can’t choose “ we’ve already lost the fight before a blow was even thrown . All because we believe we can’t choose anything . Imagine raising a child “ you have no choice if you do wrong or right hopefully nothing bad will happen because if you stand in the road it’s not your choice you have no choice to move out of the way of traffic “

The only thing keeping anyone from choosing life is they are convinced they have no choice . The reason is they won’t listen to what Jesus told them makes them free we can hear it a million times but if we reject it it’s not going to help if we let it into our heart is broken humans Christ will bring us to life and cleanse away that corrupt part

we can’t change from who we are if we’re convinced we’re not capable with his word . Those humans your talking about need to hear the gospel and let it be true that’s what sets us free

what you have is a mental block, unless God takes it out of your mind nobody is going to get through to you.

I don't see Jesus begging anybody to believe in Him or to be His disciple.

What I see is Him speaking in parables so that seeing they see not and hearing they hear not lest they should turn to Him and repent and be saved. To His chosen ones He explains the parables.

Where do you see Him appealing to Peter James and John to be His disciples? He commands them "follow Me" and they straightway leave their nets behind and follow Him. Repent is a command.

The enablement for them to obey the command is in the word itself, just like He said "let there be light and there was light" the power is in His word.

The wind blows where he listeth and ye hear the sound thereof so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

We are born again not by the will of man nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God. Stop saying it was your will.

God COMMANDS people to repent.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

what you have is a mental block, unless God takes it out of your mind nobody is going to get through to you.

I don't see Jesus begging anybody to believe in Him or to be His disciple.

What I see is Him speaking in parables so that seeing they see not and hearing they hear not lest they should turn to Him and repent and be saved. To His chosen ones He explains the parables.

Where do you see Him appealing to Peter James and John to be His disciples? He commands them "follow Me" and they straightway leave their nets behind and follow Him. Repent is a command.

The enablement for them to obey the command is in the word itself, just like He said "let there be light and there was light" the power is in His word.

The wind blows where he listeth and ye hear the sound thereof so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

We are born again not by the will of man nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God. Stop saying it was your will.

God COMMANDS people to repent.

“what you have is a mental block, unless God takes it out of your mind nobody is going to get through to you.”

abdolutely only , his word is what put it there

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what a nut job I must be to believe what Jesus said about eternal life lol

“I don't see Jesus begging anybody to believe in Him or to be His disciple.”

No one said he’s begging but you

“Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Not im going to force you all to do this

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

V if I choose you as my disciple I’m going to force you to do what I say because you don’t have a choice to do or not do

It’s kind of a silly argument really sort of just removing any accountability or responsability and if we live is not our choice of we die not our choice

“Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.


( 1 option ) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:

( option 2 ) but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

( option 1) whether of sin unto death,

( option 2 ) or of obedience unto righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:12-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


your right I’m never letting go of what God has said in scripture it wouldn’t matter if a thousand men told me different.


“God COMMANDS people to repent.”

i thought you said they have no choice ?

 

[Nehemiah6]

I do not understand from the scriptures you have quoted that I may choose or that I have any freewill in the matter.

Really? Yet they are plain as day. So let me break it down:

1. Assume that you are one who has never heard the Gospel and is lost.

2. You go to a Gospel meeting where the full nd true Gospel is preached.

3. You hear from the Word of God that you are are sinner and that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners -- (1) from Hell (eternal damnation), (2) from yourself and your sinful nature, (3) from the power of Satan over you, and (4) from the world and its attraction. Salvation is deliverance from all these.

4. At the same time the Holy Spirit tells you that everything from the Word of God in the Gospel is true, and He powerfully draws you to Christ. But does not compel you.

5. You also hear that in order to be saved God COMMANDS you to do two things: (1) repent, and turn away completely from your sins and idols, and (2) believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Assuming you were in the military, you understand that commands need to be obeyed. So now you have to make a decision -- do I or do I not obey God? Does that involve your will or does it not? (call it freewill or give it any other name) Now we need some honesty.

6. Because God leaves you to make the final decision, He also tells you the consequences of disobeying the Gospel. So you obey God, and do exactly what He commands. You repent, receive Christ as your Lord and Savior, and are therefore saved. But you also know that had you not done this you would be damned, and the wrath of God would abide on you. (All of that should have been in the preaching).

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Really? Yet they are plain as day. So let me break it down:

1. Assume that you are one who has never heard the Gospel and is lost.

2. You go to a Gospel meeting where the full nd true Gospel is preached.

3. You hear from the Word of God that you are are sinner and that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners -- (1) from Hell (eternal damnation), (2) from yourself and your sinful nature, (3) from the power of Satan over you, and (4) from the world and its attraction. Salvation is deliverance from all these.

4. At the same time the Holy Spirit tells you that everything from the Word of God in the Gospel is true, and He powerfully draws you to Christ. But does not compel you.

5. You also hear that in order to be saved God COMMANDS you to do two things: (1) repent, and turn away completely from your sins and idols, and (2) believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Assuming you were in the military, you understand that commands need to be obeyed. So now you have to make a decision -- do I or do I not obey God? Does that involve your will or does it not? (call it freewill or give it any other name) Now we need some honesty.

6. Because God leaves you to make the final decision, He also tells you the consequences of disobeying the Gospel. So you obey God, and do exactly what He commands. You repent, receive Christ as your Lord and Savior, and are therefore saved. But you also know that had you not done this you would be damned, and the wrath of God would abide on you. (All of that should have been in the preaching).

“He powerfully draws you to Christ. But does not compel you. “

jesus dying on the cross for our sins is what draws all men to him that was all accomplished by the Holy Ghost Everyone is drawn to Jesus through his sacrifice.

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s a call by the word of God to all of creation a trumpet blast calling Gods people to gather at the cross and exit from an empty tomb

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

two children are out in a field daddy’s hollerin come on home boys. They both hear it but one of them heeds the call the other one would rather keep playing in the field so he chooses not to heed the call and follow his desire instead.

“The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

( he called they didn’t respond )

Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

( again he’s calling to them to come to the supper they are invited by his Will he wants them to attend the wedding but )

But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:2-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus died for everyone’s sins so everyone can be saved and he sent out the call to everyone all creatures of the world

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.( that’s the invitation ) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;”( that’s who attends the wedding)

the ones who hear about it but don’t respond have chosen the things of the world thier wealth and possessions thier farms and livelihoods others simply mock when they hear the gospel like those in the story I’m this case a story about Israel. But after this happens when tbier city is burned up he does this

“Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s still the same only now the whole world has been invited only some are going to hear and believe and respond because they hear the truth that this thing is about eternal life with God after we oss through this short temporary place not only for ourself . For those people we love we can according to the gospels promises live together forever beyond death we can transcend mortality in Christ and be a part of his eternal perfect creation where God dwells among us as he once did so long ago in Israel.

of we really hear what Jesus is promising in the gospel and believe him it creates an option of living how I want to and how I feel like now because when I die it’s over …..or I can repent and turn to the lord believe the gospel and inherit his eternal kingdom promised in the gospel we’re told to hear and believe and be saved

If we think there’s no choice for us it’s because we actually haven’t really listened to and taken seriously the things Jesus came to earth to tell mankind

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what Jesus said and taught and promised is the other option but only when we hear about it and accept it.

“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? …..But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:14, 16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have to believe the witness or the report of the gospel it’s the very thing that creates the choice

 

[Evmur]

Really? Yet they are plain as day. So let me break it down:

1. Assume that you are one who has never heard the Gospel and is lost.

2. You go to a Gospel meeting where the full nd true Gospel is preached.

3. You hear from the Word of God that you are are sinner and that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners -- (1) from Hell (eternal damnation), (2) from yourself and your sinful nature, (3) from the power of Satan over you, and (4) from the world and its attraction. Salvation is deliverance from all these.

4. At the same time the Holy Spirit tells you that everything from the Word of God in the Gospel is true, and He powerfully draws you to Christ. But does not compel you.

5. You also hear that in order to be saved God COMMANDS you to do two things: (1) repent, and turn away completely from your sins and idols, and (2) believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Assuming you were in the military, you understand that commands need to be obeyed. So now you have to make a decision -- do I or do I not obey God? Does that involve your will or does it not? (call it freewill or give it any other name) Now we need some honesty.

6. Because God leaves you to make the final decision, He also tells you the consequences of disobeying the Gospel. So you obey God, and do exactly what He commands. You repent, receive Christ as your Lord and Savior, and are therefore saved. But you also know that had you not done this you would be damned, and the wrath of God would abide on you. (All of that should have been in the preaching).

Yes

I see it differently to you

Suppose another scenario, suppose you heard the gospel preached with great wisdom so that nobody could withstand it, suppose also you witnessed great miracles done by this preacher called Stephen, a deacon of the church. But instead of being persuaded and being brought to a "decision" for Christ you gnash your teeth and are filled with rage and when they start stoning Stephen you join in, holding their coats.

This is your will at work, you think it is free but actually it is in bondage. You think you are doing good, serving God, your intention is to do good but you are doing evil instead. That is a description of the human will in bondage.

It will remain in bondage riding on it's high horse until you are knocked off it by the power of God. Before Saul of Tarsus could be saved God had to overpower his will, subjugate it until he is crawling blind in the dust crying weakly "who art Thou Lord?"

I say before anyone can be brought to any decision for Christ God must already be working in them, they are already born again, all they do is seal the deal.

It is God working IN US to do of His good pleasure.

I can never understand why anybody would object to it.

 

[Evmur]

“He powerfully draws you to Christ. But does not compel you. “

jesus dying on the cross for our sins is what draws all men to him that was all accomplished by the Holy Ghost Everyone is drawn to Jesus through his sacrifice.

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s a call by the word of God to all of creation a trumpet blast calling Gods people to gather at the cross and exit from an empty tomb

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

two children are out in a field daddy’s hollerin come on home boys. They both hear it but one of them heeds the call the other one would rather keep playing in the field so he chooses not to heed the call and follow his desire instead.

“The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

( he called they didn’t respond )

Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

( again he’s calling to them to come to the supper they are invited by his Will he wants them to attend the wedding but )

But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:2-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus died for everyone’s sins so everyone can be saved and he sent out the call to everyone all creatures of the world

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.( that’s the invitation ) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;”( that’s who attends the wedding)

the ones who hear about it but don’t respond have chosen the things of the world thier wealth and possessions thier farms and livelihoods others simply mock when they hear the gospel like those in the story I’m this case a story about Israel. But after this happens when tbier city is burned up he does this

“Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s still the same only now the whole world has been invited only some are going to hear and believe and respond because they hear the truth that this thing is about eternal life with God after we oss through this short temporary place not only for ourself . For those people we love we can according to the gospels promises live together forever beyond death we can transcend mortality in Christ and be a part of his eternal perfect creation where God dwells among us as he once did so long ago in Israel.

of we really hear what Jesus is promising in the gospel and believe him it creates an option of living how I want to and how I feel like now because when I die it’s over …..or I can repent and turn to the lord believe the gospel and inherit his eternal kingdom promised in the gospel we’re told to hear and believe and be saved

If we think there’s no choice for us it’s because we actually haven’t really listened to and taken seriously the things Jesus came to earth to tell mankind

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what Jesus said and taught and promised is the other option but only when we hear about it and accept it.

“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? …..But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:14, 16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have to believe the witness or the report of the gospel it’s the very thing that creates the choice

You didn't quote that correctly it says "Go quickly to the highways and hedges and COMPEL them to come in"

You don't like that word compel.

You always talk about faith and believing as though it were not a gift

The bible says it is a gift, not of yourselves lest Pilgrim'shope should boast in God's presence. When we hear the gospel and God pours His grace upon us He also imparts faith to our hearts whereby we may believe. AND...

... this will really get your goat

God in that moment is irresistible .... technically He could be resisted but nobody ever does.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You didn't quote that correctly it says "Go quickly to the highways and hedges and COMPEL them to come in"

You don't like that word compel.

You always talk about faith and believing as though it were not a gift

The bible says it is a gift, not of yourselves lest Pilgrim'shope should boast in God's presence. When we hear the gospel and God pours His grace upon us He also imparts faith to our hearts whereby we may believe. AND...

... this will really get your goat

God in that moment is irresistible .... technically He could be resisted but nobody ever does.

“You don't like that word compel.”

ayes an innocent man laying down his perfect life to save sinners ……that’s supposed to Compel people again they have to hear the gospel however in order to know about that man who laid down his life because he loves us …

compell doesn’t mean force against one’s will.

He’s already endured suffering shed his blood and gave his last breath on a cross to compell people. That’s why he said this to go preach the gospel to them

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Pretty easy choice but you’d have to be willing to listen to what the lord was teaching in his word

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? ( meant to compell believers to obedience )

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that should say something to you revealing two outcomes based upon your response to his word .

“Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:16-17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”

Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”

No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:11-14‬ ‭

“But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:6-8‬ ‭

 

[Evmur]

“You don't like that word compel.”

ayes an innocent man laying down his perfect life to save sinners ……that’s supposed to Compel people again they have to hear the gospel however in order to know about that man who laid down his life because he loves us …

compell doesn’t mean force against one’s will.

He’s already endured suffering shed his blood and gave his last breath on a cross to compell people. That’s why he said this to go preach the gospel to them

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Pretty easy choice but you’d have to be willing to listen to what the lord was teaching in his word

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? ( meant to compell believers to obedience )

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that should say something to you revealing two outcomes based upon your response to his word .

“Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:16-17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”

Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”

No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:11-14‬ ‭

“But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:6-8‬ ‭

if your will is set to reject Christ and His salvation, and it is. The flesh is forever at emnity with God. Wouldn't you want for God to utterly subdue and subjugate your will until you cry out "what must I do to be saved?"

the doctrine of Human freewill is idolatry. YOU are on the throne.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

if your will is set to reject Christ and His salvation, and it is. The flesh is forever at emnity with God. Wouldn't you want for God to utterly subdue and subjugate your will until you cry out "what must I do to be saved?"

the doctrine of Human freewill is idolatry. YOU are on the throne.

“if your will is set to reject Christ and His salvation, and it is.”

This is based on me insisting that I accept his words that promise salvstion on the gospel ?

lol brother I would remind you that Jesus , and Paul taught us not to judge one another haha 😂

But ……I know that you have no choice in anything you say or do I guess so lol I won’t bother , or hold it against you after all …..it’s not you you have no choice in your words or actions

😂

God loves you brother I know that for sure

 

[Evmur]

“if your will is set to reject Christ and His salvation, and it is.”

This is based on me insisting that I accept his words that promise salvstion on the gospel ?

lol brother I would remind you that Jesus , and Paul taught us not to judge one another haha 😂

But ……I know that you have no choice in anything you say or do I guess so lol I won’t bother , or hold it against you after all …..it’s not you you have no choice in your words or actions

😂

God loves you brother I know that for sure

I was talking about before you were saved, not implying that you are not saved.

Why do the apostles never speak like this? "we accepted Jesus as our Saviour ... we made a decision ... we chose Him to be our Saviour"

"Thanks be unto God the Father and Jesus Christ whom we have chosen of our own freewill"

Nobody speaks like that in the bible. It's all He of His great mercy chose us, by His own will He saved us WHILE we were yet His enemies He saved us. In fact there is no such thing as human freewill in the NT.

You believed the gospel because God imparted faith to you and He is irresistible. But you now want to steal a little glory for yourself so you now say "no no it was all my decision" I am in control, I am the sovereign one.

 

[John146]

I was talking about before you were saved, not implying that you are not saved.

Why do the apostles never speak like this? "we accepted Jesus as our Saviour ... we made a decision ... we chose Him to be our Saviour"

"Thanks be unto God the Father and Jesus Christ whom we have chosen of our own freewill"

Nobody speaks like that in the bible. It's all He of His great mercy chose us, by His own will He saved us WHILE we were yet His enemies He saved us. In fact there is no such thing as human freewill in the NT.

You believed the gospel because God imparted faith to you and He is irresistible. But you now want to steal a little glory for yourself so you now say "no no it was all my decision" I am in control, I am the sovereign one.

Ah, the RCC Calvinist fall back position of stealing glory for yourself for believing Christ died for your sins. Guilt trip!!!

 

[Evmur]

Ah, the RCC Calvinist fall back position of stealing glory for yourself for believing Christ died for your sins. Guilt trip!!!

what are you on about

 

[John146]

what are you on about

Salvation is about believing…believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Not one person is pre-programmed to believe the gospel. That in itself would nullify the meaning of the word believe. Abraham being our example of believing God at his word. If we believe…if.

Romans 4:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

 

[tedincarolina]

What I see is that when the gospel is preached in power, the Holy Ghost falls upon people and they do believe.

Hi @Evmur

I would just ask that you consider that from an historical perspective. Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and was, at least from the time of his baptism by John, indwelled with the Spirit of God that came down and rested upon him, that he preached the gospel with such power as you claim? If so, why didn't everyone in Israel believe him by the time he went to that cross? I would certainly agree that speaking the gospel with/in the power of the Holy Spirit is a great advantage, but I'm not so sure that it's the guarantee that you seem to be saying that it is.

 

[Evmur]

Hi @Evmur

I would just ask that you consider that from an historical perspective. Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and was, at least from the time of his baptism by John, indwelled with the Spirit of God that came down and rested upon him, that he preached the gospel with such power as you claim? If so, why didn't everyone in Israel believe him by the time he went to that cross? I would certainly agree that speaking the gospel with/in the power of the Holy Spirit is a great advantage, but I'm not so sure that it's the guarantee that you seem to be saying that it is.

Hi that is not really what the argument is about.
The question is does God choose us?
do we choose God?
is it a combination of these positions?

My position is plain and simple God chooses us.
Any other position has complexities, I don't need to tell you that vast libraries of books have been written on both sides of the argument.

Here we are dealing with just one of the complexities involved i.e. does man even have the ability to choose or does he indeed have freewill?

I say he has a will but far from being free the bible says our wills are slaves to Satan since the fall. In bondage.
In that case we are totally lost, without God and without hope in the world. The only hope for mankind [on my side of the argument] is if God will have mercy upon me and set me FREE and impart faith to me whereby I may believe the gospel and call upon the Lord and be saved.

The other side [esteemed brethren, I'm not knocking them] say no no but they of their own freewill may decide to choose to believe the gospel and so call upon the Lord and be saved.

It seems such a thin line of division, to many a trite subject to even argue about. I disagree. Although the line of division is razor thin the gulf is as wide as the parting of the Red Sea. And the division between the two positions grow wider and wider as we progress [or not as case may be] along the Christian pathway.

You put your thumb right smack on a vital point in the debate. Why are some saved while others are not saved? It was the same preacher, the same message, the same crowd. But some believed while others did not.

What was the factor? is it a matter of human freewill, human decidings, human choosings?

Or did God already choose among the people.