Was Mary Sinless?

[bytheblood]

To settle this once and for all, take your own term "pre-incarnate" seriously, the Word had no material form until it did.

NOT the pre-incarnate Jesus, the pre-incarnate Christ. Again I'll ask this question you never answered, if angels, not born of women, can take on human form are you saying it was impossible for God the Word to? Not to dwell on earth, yet, but to" come down and see " as He did with Abram concerning Sodom and Gomorrah. P.S. The WORD is not an it,

Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation? Hebrews 1:14

Angels are spirits.
Not souls.

Regenerate men who are souls, having been given a human spirit at salvation to know the things of God with.

But, born again men are not spirits. They are souls having been given a human spirit by God.


The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God.
For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they
are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

If men were spirits?
Then the natural man would discern and understand things that came from the Spirit of God!

.......

The natural mans' spirit is dormant until quickened(brought alive) by the Holy Spirit at the receiving of Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior and Master of our lives. If the natural man, which you and I were at one time ( I'm guessing you were) has no spirit than there would be no life force to empower our bodies, for the body without the spirit is dead.

To settle this once and for all, take your own term "pre-incarnate" seriously, the Word had no material form until it did.

Strangely, you didn't answer any of the questions I asked you. Not hard questions, mainly yes or no. I wonder why? As a matter of fact, you've done that several times. You just keep on trying to lead down rabbit holes, evading, never being completely honest, with yourself. Pre-incarnate triggers you.

 

[Lovette]

There are THREE levels of heaven as noted in the psalms scripture. Aren't clouds usually in heaven but sometimes come down to earth? I am not conflating the Father with the Word/ Son, They seemingly conflated themselves when Jesus, the Word, said I and My Father are one and He only spoke what the Father told Him. So are you saying that They are guilty of modalism? Notice I posted THEY, three distinct persons, called Trinitarianism. That's why I said God, The Word visited Abram, was face to face with Moses and wrestled with Jacob, not the Father. Weak attempt at a parable but here goes; you have water, ice and steam, the water to slake your thirst, the ice to cool your drink and the steam to get the wrinkles out of your clothes. When the ice melts and the steam condensates what do you have left? Water, with sometimes distinctly different forms and assignments but the same essence, they are one. The Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit are ALL referred to as God in scripture. If need be I'll show you where.

Then you have convicted yourself of modalism. God the Son and the Father are one in the sense that a president in one region and his agent in another region are of one mind, his agent executes his order on his authority, but they are still two distinct beings. The Word didn't visit Abram as long as the Word didn't become flesh at the time, God himself visited Abram through a human agent.

 

[Lovette]

NOT the pre-incarnate Jesus, the pre-incarnate Christ. Again I'll ask this question you never answered, if angels, not born of women, can take on human form are you saying it was impossible for God the Word to?

Possible for God the Father, impossible for God the Son.

Strangely, you didn't answer any of the questions I asked you. Not hard questions, mainly yes or no. I wonder why? As a matter of fact, you've done that several times. You just keep on trying to lead down rabbit holes, evading, never being completely honest, with yourself. Pre-incarnate triggers you.

What have I evaded, friend? I wonder why you're so adamantly pushing a contradicting, self-defeating argument that on one hand God was "pre-incarnate", on the other hand, God took on flesh to visit Abram. And you vehemently equate Jesus with angel by identifying him as such, even though Heb. 1:5 and Rev. 19:10 have clearly proven you wrong. How would it hurt you to conclude those occassions simply as THEOphany, divine appearance of God?

 

[Genez]

The natural mans' spirit is dormant until quickened(brought alive) by the Holy Spirit at the receiving of Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior and Master of our lives. If the natural man, which you and I were at one time ( I'm guessing you were) has no spirit than there would be no life force to empower our bodies, for the body without the spirit is dead.

According to that logic?

If man is spirit as you claimed?
Man therefore must be dormant and not a man until after they believe in Jesus Christ.
So? Who, or what, believed in Jesus Christ?

And?

It is you who are saying spirit means "life force."
Whereas...
Unregenerate people are the walking spiritually dead.

That is why Jesus said the following....

Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

Luke 9:60

.......

 

[bytheblood]

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us," Jn. 1:14. As long as he didn't become flesh yet, he didn't dwell among men, therefore none of your perceived "Christophany" could be Christ. Again, the Word did NOT become flesh and dwell among us until He DID at God's appointed time. He couldn't be the visitor at Abraham's tent or the angel that wrestled with Jacob, because according to your own terminology, Christ was "PRE-incarnate", He didn't have a material form yet.

VISIT, as He did with Abram as the Word, and DWELL, after he was born of a woman as Jesus, are different. You visit someone else's home, you dwell in yours. The Word became flesh, the flesh was given the name Jesus, Jesus is the Christ. " For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist ( are held together )." Colossians 1:16-17. This passage is talking about Jesus ( read the whole chapter ) but all things were created BEFORE Jesus became flesh, so it's talking about the Word who became flesh, the PRE-INCARNATE Jesus the Christ. So you're saying that He, the Word, who created ALL things visible and invisible, including the angels, couldn't possibly have taken on human form, before being born of a woman, as He allowed the angels to do?? If so you are saying that there IS something impossible with God, for the Word IS GOD and that He COULDN'T have visited with Abram, that He COULDN'T have stood face to face with Moses in the cloud, that He COULDN'T have wrestled with Jacob??? I'm on pins and needles waiting for your response, how you're going to spin this.

 

[Lovette]

VISIT, as He did with Abram as the Word, and DWELL, after he was born of a woman as Jesus, are different. You visit someone else's home, you dwell in yours. The Word became flesh, the flesh was given the name Jesus, Jesus is the Christ. " For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist ( are held together )." Colossians 1:16-17. This passage is talking about Jesus ( read the whole chapter ) but all things were created BEFORE Jesus became flesh, so it's talking about the Word who became flesh, the PRE-INCARNATE Jesus the Christ. So you're saying that He, the Word, who created ALL things visible and invisible, including the angels, couldn't possibly have taken on human form, before being born of a woman, as He allowed the angels to do?? If so you are saying that there IS something impossible with God, for the Word IS GOD and that He COULDN'T have visited with Abram, that He COULDN'T have stood face to face with Moses in the cloud, that He COULDN'T have wrestled with Jacob??? I'm on pins and needles waiting for your response, how you're going to spin this.

See post 1163 above, possible for God the Father, impossible for God the Son, because it is impossible for him to lie, Num. 23:19. As you said, God visited Abram through a human agent on earth, while he dwelt in heaven, on his throne. As for Colossians 1:16-17, I also explained before, the Godhead is beyond the time-space continuum he created, he is not bound by time as we are. He is eternal, there's no past, present or future for him.

 

[bytheblood]

Then you have convicted yourself of modalism. God the Son and the Father are one in the sense that a president in one region and his agent in another region are of one mind, his agent executes his order on his authority, but they are still two distinct beings. The Word didn't visit Abram as long as the Word didn't become flesh at the time, God himself visited Abram through a human agent.

Yes, God the Word. If God the Father, in your estimation, visited Abram in human form why couldn't God the Word BEFORE being born of a woman? I have stated over and over that the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons but are One. YOU are a three part being, spirit, soul and body but you are one aren't you? People think out of their own experiences and can't comprehend that there is no jealousy, arguments, jockeying for position, etc., etc. in heaven between the Godhead. If Jesus said that the greatest among you, on earth, would be the servant of all ( I'm paraphrasing ) they, more than likely, are out-serving each other BECAUSE They are equally great, but not TO BE the greatest in heaven.

According to that logic?

If man is spirit as you claimed?
Man therefore must be dormant and not a man until after they believe in Jesus Christ.
So? Who, or what, believed in Jesus Christ?

And?

It is you who are saying spirit means "life force."
Whereas...
Unregenerate people are the walking spiritually dead.

That is why Jesus said the following....

Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

Luke 9:60

.......

Mans spirit is dormant (or dead) to spiritual things of God. You, at one time, were dead in trespasses and sins according to scripture " And you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins." Eph 2:1 ( read the rest of the chapter if you don't think it's talking about you.) So all men have spirits, some have not been quickened (brought alive) because they have not received Christ as their Savior.

 

[Lovette]

Yes, God the Word. If God the Father, in your estimation, visited Abram in human form why couldn't God the Word BEFORE being born of a woman?

Because he couldn't be born of virgin Mary when virgin Mary herself was yet born.

I have stated over and over that the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons but are One. YOU are a three part being, spirit, soul and body but you are one aren't you?

No, I've stated over and over again, I have a spirit, I have a body, I AM a soul.

People think out of their own experiences and can't comprehend that there is no jealousy, arguments, jockeying for position, etc., etc. in heaven between the Godhead. If Jesus said that the greatest among you, on earth, would be the servant of all ( I'm paraphrasing ) they, more than likely, are out-serving each other BECAUSE They are equally great, but not TO BE the greatest in heaven.

I believe the son is always subservient to the father, in heaven he is seated at the right hand side of the father's throne.

 

[bytheblood]

See post 1163 above, possible for God the Father, impossible for God the Son, because it is impossible for him to lie, Num. 23:19. As you said, God visited Abram through a human agent on earth, while he dwelt in heaven, on his throne. As for Colossians 1:16-17, I also explained before, the Godhead is beyond the time-space continuum he created, he is not bound by time as we are. He is eternal, there's no past, present or future for him.

Yeah, and that time-space continuum is a bunch of malarky, which is based on a theory that has nothing to do with this discussion. You don't have a viable answer, just admit it. So you ARE saying that something is impossible with God. Where does it say in scripture that the Word, who is GOD, before being born of a woman, couldn't take on human form but that God, the Father can? That " beyond time " Godhead has taken up residence in me, in time.

 

[Lovette]

Yeah, and that time-space continuum is a bunch of malarky, which is based on a theory that has nothing to do with this discussion. You don't have a viable answer, just admit it. So you ARE saying that something is impossible with God. Where does it say in scripture that the Word, who is GOD, before being born of a woman, couldn't take on human form but that God, the Father can? That " beyond time " Godhead has taken up residence in me, in time.

First, ask yourself about your concocted term, "pre-incarnate"; then ask merriam-webster about its definition. Spin it in anyway you like, "take on human form" is incarnation, "speak through a human agent" is quite another matter, you don't know the difference because you're being triggered. A viable answer I've repeated many times - the Word didn't become flesh and dwell among us until He did.

 

[bytheblood]

Because he couldn't be born of virgin Mary when virgin Mary herself was yet born.

No, I've stated over and over again, I have a spirit, I have a body, I AM a soul.

I believe the son is always subservient to the father, in heaven he is seated at the right hand side of the father's throne.

1) I didn't say born I said take on human form, like you said the Father did. He was born of Mary to, among other things, take away the sins of the world, in the fulness of time. 2) But you are one, aren't you. Think you body can live with just a soul? 3) Yes, voluntarily. Remember, He now holds "all power in heaven and on earth" and does not consider in robbery to be equal with God (the Father), but will hand it all over to the Father after the last enemy has been defeated.

 

[bytheblood]

First, ask yourself about your concocted term, "pre-incarnate"; then ask merriam-webster about its definition. Spin it in anyway you like, "take on human form" is incarnation, "speak through a human agent" is quite another matter, you don't know the difference because you're being triggered. A viable answer I've repeated many times - the Word didn't become flesh and dwell among us until He did.

Dwell.

 

[Lovette]

1) I didn't say born I said take on human form, like you said the Father did. He was born of Mary to, among other things, take away the sins of the world, in the fulness of time. 2) But you are one, aren't you. Think you body can live with just a soul? 3) Yes, voluntarily. Remember, He now holds "all power in heaven and on earth" and does not consider in robbery to be equal with God (the Father), but will hand it all over to the Father after the last enemy has been defeated.

1) Again, God either incarnated in human flesh or communicated through a human agent, it can't be both; 2) Body+Spirit=Soul, Gen. 2:7; 3) In God's design, God the Father is the king of angels in heaven, God the Son is the king of kings on earth. That's what it means, on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[bytheblood]

First, ask yourself about your concocted term, "pre-incarnate"; then ask merriam-webster about its definition. Spin it in anyway you like, "take on human form" is incarnation, "speak through a human agent" is quite another matter, you don't know the difference because you're being triggered. A viable answer I've repeated many times - the Word didn't become flesh and dwell among us until He did.

So I guess angels, when taking on human form, were incarnated, but God the Word, not yet BORN of a woman, who created those same angels, you limit...hmmmm. Why don't you check Messianic references to the pre-incarnate Christ? Maybe you'll believe them.

 

[Lovette]

So I guess angels, when taking on human form, were incarnated, but God the Word, not yet BORN of a woman, who created those same angels, you limit...hmmmm. Why don't you check Messianic references to the pre-incarnate Christ? Maybe you'll believe them.

"Pre-incarnate Chrisit" is in the prophecies such as Dan. 7:9-14, Zech. 14:1-9, Is. 63:1-9, those are the right place to look for.

 

[bytheblood]

1) Again, God either incarnated in human flesh or communicated through a human agent, it can't be both; 2) Body+Spirit=Soul, Gen. 2:7; 3) In God's design, God the Father is the king of angels in heaven, God the Son is the king of kings on earth. That's what it means, on earth as it is in heaven.

1) Why can't it be both, you limiting God again? 2) you didn't answer the question, again 3) The prayer is about God's kingdom and will, be done on earth, not the angels. BTW all holy angels are not in heaven, who is their king?

 

[bytheblood]

"Pre-incarnate Chrisit" is in the prophecies such as Dan. 7:9-14, Zech. 14:1-9, Is. 63:1-9, those are the right place to look for.

Did you check the Messianic references, other than what you cherry picked to reveal. How about Melchizedek? I've checked them and many believe there were physical appearances of the pre-incarnate Christ.

 

[GWH]

No.. Mary was a human being just like the rest of us.. She had the knowledge of good and evil inherited from her ancestors just as we do..

The doctrine of Mary being sinless and Mary being a virgin for her entire life are inventions of the catholic church, nothing to do with actual Biblical Revelation..

Enough said.

 

[Lovette]

1) Why can't it be both, you limiting God again? 2) you didn't answer the question, again 3) The prayer is about God's kingdom and will, be done on earth, not the angels. BTW all holy angels are not in heaven, who is their king?

1) Ex. 33, no one can see God face to face and live, yet God spoke to Moses face to face through a pillar of cloud, the only logical conclusion is that the pillar of cloud functioned as a communication device; 2) You asked a loaded question. You and I don't "have" souls, you and I ARE souls. 3) Holy Spirit the Restrainer

 

[Lovette]

Did you check the Messianic references, other than what you cherry picked to reveal. How about Melchizedek? I've checked them and many believe there were physical appearances of the pre-incarnate Christ.

I cherry pick nothing, any vision of the long expected messiah is a Christophany, the ones I listed are just a few prominent examples. As for Melchizedek, maybe another Theophany.

I genuinely don't understand your relentless obsession with your so called "pre-incarnate Christ" notion. As I said, my only purpose is to distinguish God the Father from God the Son, they are distinct beings. The Son was supposed to be hidden, as Moses was hidden behind the veil, until His appointed time to incarnate.