Was Mary Sinless?

[Lovette]

Yes re semantics, and re messianic Judaism that is what I suspected.
(Your candelabra icon gives it away :^)

I chose messianic Judaism because Torah, the first five books, is the foundation of the entire bible, rather than any church doctrine or tradition; Christianity is the EXPANSION of Judaism, rather than alternative or replacement, as most Christians believe.

 

[sawdust]

Like most folks you assume the HS implanted only the sperm, but because Mary was a sinner,
it makes more sense IMO that the HS implanted a clean/untainted zygote.

So Mary is not the mother of Jesus?

 

[UnoiAmarah]

You mean to say one can not refer to the man who adopted you, as your father, when asked who your parents are?

Unless the biological father had abandoned them, I think most would refer to their mother's husband as their step-father. Of course it could have been written that she had said "We have sought thee sorrowing." But then again that was a different time, yet even the Jews believed that they were not born of fornication but had one Father, even God.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

I chose messianic Judaism because Torah, the first five books, is the foundation of the entire bible, rather than any church doctrine or tradition; Christianity is the EXPANSION of Judaism, rather than alternative or replacement, as most Christians believe.

That's true, the NT helps reveal the secret things of the LORD within in the Torah.

 

[GWH]

And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

He lived perfectly as a young Jewish man. Luke 2:41-52

​

​

Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. ​

When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the custom. ​

After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed ​

behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their company, ​

they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. ​

When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. After three days they ​

found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them ​

questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. When his ​

parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us ​

like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”​

​

“Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” ​

But they did not understand what he was saying to them.​

​

Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured ​

all these things in her heart. And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.​

grace and peace ........

A good question and good answer. :^)

 

[GWH]

And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. Luke 2:43
And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. Luke 2:48
Why Mary would have referred unto Joseph as his father?

And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. Luke 2:49-51
While the author used the term 'them", do you think Jesus saw Joseph and Mary as twain?
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Matt 19:4-6

So do you think he was speaking to man that is not married?
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matt 5:28

Both Joseph and Mary were the earthly parents of Jesus/God the Son,
and God the Father is the heavenly Parent of God Incarnate,
in Whose image both male and female are created miraculously.
(Luke 2:48-51, John 1:1-14, Gen. 1:26-27)

 

[GWH]

I chose messianic Judaism because Torah, the first five books, is the foundation of the entire bible, rather than any church doctrine or tradition; Christianity is the EXPANSION of Judaism, rather than alternative or replacement, as most Christians believe.

That is where you go wrong.
Christ is the FULFILLMENT of Judaism, and the FOUNDATION of saving faith for both Jew and Gentile.
Most messianic Jews agree with me/the NT including Paul's teachings, and I encourage you to agree with them/Christians
rather than be a Judaizer who perverts/corrupts the Gospel. Think of the candles as representing the Light of the world.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

We are not born with a 'sinful nature' but a 'human nature' polluted by sin. There is a difference.

Care to explain the difference?

 

[Adstar]

From a discussion elsewhere I had about the nature of Sin...


I don't agree. Jesus' flesh and human spirit had no sin at all. Jesus was likely given Mary's DNA but without Joseph's DNA because Joseph would then have taken credit for a "Work" in producing Christ. Flawed Works had to be atoned for and could not produce Eternal Life. Jesus was Eternal Life and was the product of God's Work alone.

DNA can apparently produce defective combinations, but in Mary's case it appears that God "healed" any possible defects in the order of these chemical combinations and the state they were in. The flesh within her imperfect flesh was rendered perfect as far as Christ's being was concerned.

Because human Works are carried on through reproduction, all of mankind, except for Christ, have inherited a Sin Nature and cannot, apart from Christ's Grace, obtain Eternal Life. All of us inherit human DNA as well as a sin-infected human spirituality that disqualifies us from obtaining Eternal Life apart from Christ's Grace.

We all sin, even though through Christ our New Christian Nature may prevail over our Sin impulses--not perfectly but sufficient to show the Nature that we have chosen to reign in our lives. Inheriting human DNA means we inherit flawed Human Flesh. But the Sin is not in the fleshly flaws, eg diseases but rather in the spiritual corruption.

The flesh and the spirit are two separate things. Before we do any Sin we have already been born with a contaminated spiritual nature and will Sin as soon as we are able.

Again, the trial we undergo in life is in proving what Nature we wish to prevail--our New Nature from Christ, which desires to submit to Christ's Righteousness, or our carnal Nature, which wishes to make choices independent of God, even if at times those choices agree with God's choices.

The real battle is in choosing to partner with God *always,* because this proves what Nature we choose to have and to dominate in Eternity. It is not our Sin Nature that condemns us in Eternity. Rather, it is in our choice for Christ, producing a New Nature, or not.

No.. Mary was a human being just like the rest of us.. She had the knowledge of good and evil inherited from her ancestors just as we do..

The doctrine of Mary being sinless and Mary being a virgin for her entire life are inventions of the catholic church, nothing to do with actual Biblical Revelation..

 

[Adstar]

Like most folks you assume the HS implanted only the sperm, but because Mary was a sinner,
it makes more sense IMO that the HS implanted a clean/untainted zygote.

This is what i believe also..

 

[GWH]

This is what i believe also..

Cool! Agreement on the best belief is good/godly.

 

[Lovette]

That is where you go wrong.
Christ is the FULFILLMENT of Judaism, and the FOUNDATION of saving faith for both Jew and Gentile.
Most messianic Jews agree with me/the NT including Paul's teachings, and I encourage you to agree with them/Christians
rather than be a Judaizer who perverts/corrupts the Gospel. Think of the candles as representing the Light of the world.

Which christ are you talking about? The only true one's character is set up in the OT Judaism. I encourage you to educate yourself 1 Cor. 15:3, in particular, which I suppose we can at least agree, that the gospel message is encapsulated in this verse - "Christ died for our sins, according to the scripture", is this Paul's teaching or not? Well gues what, the scripture therein is the OT, and 'sin" is defined by the OT. Without the OT narrative, you won't know what you're saved from or saved for.

 

[Lovette]

That is where you go wrong.
Christ is the FULFILLMENT of Judaism, and the FOUNDATION of saving faith for both Jew and Gentile.
Most messianic Jews agree with me/the NT including Paul's teachings, and I encourage you to agree with them/Christians
rather than be a Judaizer who perverts/corrupts the Gospel. Think of the candles as representing the Light of the world.

And btw, Judaism is not fulfilled as long as Christ hasn't returned, large portions of God's prophecies are still in progress, that's where you've gone wrong.

 

[Mem]

The law reveals sin, and grace covers it.

Jesus signaled Mary's transgression when He addressed her as "Woman," saying, "What have I to do with thee? My hour has not yet come."

But He also revealed His grace when He honored her request.

 

[NightTwister]

Which christ are you talking about? The only true one's character is set up in the OT Judaism. I encourage you to educate yourself 1 Cor. 15:3, in particular, which I suppose we can at least agree, that the gospel message is encapsulated in this verse - "Christ died for our sins, according to the scripture", is this Paul's teaching or not? Well gues what, the scripture therein is the OT, and 'sin" is defined by the OT. Without the OT narrative, you won't know what you're saved from or saved for.

And yet we can know without it:

“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." -- Matt 22:36-40 ESV

 

[Lovette]

And yet we can know without it:

“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." -- Matt 22:36-40 ESV

No you can't, these were quotes from Deuteronomy 6:4–5 and Leviticus 19:18, Jesus didn't invent them. Are you even sure what "love" means? That's THE most abused word in English languge.

 

[TruthDefender]

And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. Luke 2:43
And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. Luke 2:48
Why Mary would have referred unto Joseph as his father?

And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. Luke 2:49-51
While the author used the term 'them", do you think Jesus saw Joseph and Mary as twain?
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Matt 19:4-6

So do you think he was speaking to man that is not married?
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matt 5:28

Twain? Why are you speaking in old English?

 

[TruthDefender]

No you can't, these were quotes from Deuteronomy 6:4–5 and Leviticus 19:18, Jesus didn't invent them. Are you even sure what "love" means? That's THE most abused word in English languge.

Jesus was in the beginning with God the Father, all things were created through Jesus.

 

[TruthDefender]

So Mary is not the mother of Jesus?

If Mary bore Him, she is the mother.

 

[rewriter]

Of course, it was a "He."

The one who crushes the serpent's head will be the Messiah who will be born of a woman.
The seed of the woman would be used of God to produce that "He."

But sin entered the world through one man. (man's sperm)

The Ovum of women does not transfer the sin nature, the man's sperm does.

So, you claim that anyone born from parthenogenesis, a rare but not unheard event (potentially as high as 1 in 10,000 births) where male sperm is not involved, is born without sin?