Was Mary Sinless?

[TruthDefender]

God speaking is an assumption, not something provable, and the word "all" does not include an automatic exclusion for Jesus unless the reader inserts one, and such an act would be adding to scripture, something that scripture calls a huge "no-no".

I might also note that "proper translation" is another huge problem, there is sufficient variance among different translations that it is a serious issue if one has to determine which translation is "proper". Some potential translations are not even presented in any generally available biblical translation and 1 John 5:8 seems to be almost universally mistranslated as the Greek implies that it should read "and the three are one (thing)" rather than "in agreement". I have checked that with numerous Greek scholars, and all agree, but that translation raises the question of "what one thing", and that is problematic/

Yes, the Trinity being 3 and separate, but are in agreement with the Father (as one). The church also is considered the bride of Christ, though there are many members, we should all agree as one in Christ.

 

[sawdust]

Sin is not inherited. Sin is in the world, because Satan is in the world.

If sin is not inherited then Jesus did not need to be born of a woman only.

 

[sawdust]

We are not born with a 'sinful nature' but a 'human nature' polluted by sin. There is a difference.

It is that pollution that is referred to as the "sin nature".

A rose by any other name ... one can quibble about the semantics but it is still another law in the flesh, a law not of God.

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

 

[TruthDefender]

God speaking is an assumption, not something provable, and the word "all" does not include an automatic exclusion for Jesus unless the reader inserts one, and such an act would be adding to scripture, something that scripture calls a huge "no-no".

I might also note that "proper translation" is another huge problem, there is sufficient variance among different translations that it is a serious issue if one has to determine which translation is "proper". Some potential translations are not even presented in any generally available biblical translation and 1 John 5:8 seems to be almost universally mistranslated as the Greek implies that it should read "and the three are one (thing)" rather than "in agreement". I have checked that with numerous Greek scholars, and all agree, but that translation raises the question of "what one thing", and that is problematic/

Why an assumption? Didn’t God say His word is inspired, meaning God breathed through men. Men just didn’t conjure things up, the Spirit provoked them to write down accounts of them witnessing things, and other things that the Spirit told them to write. This is why nothing is contradictory in the Bible!

Also, the “one thing” is not biblical, since God talks to His Son, and uses the “Us” in the beginning. We know that all things were created through Jesus, and that He now sits at the right hand side of the King of the Universe (God the Father). Do the math…..

 

[TruthDefender]

If sin is not inherited then Jesus did not need to be born of a woman only.

Jesus was born of a highly favored woman of God, because He is God the Father’s Son, and is God the Son in the flesh.

 

[rewriter]

holyvheavens! another victim of "paralysis by analysis" read 2nd Peter 1: 20 & 21 & 2nd Timothy 3:16 & 17. there's NO WAY that God would refrain from leaving us a way to NOT understand His Bible. if there was, then why did He write it along with his Jesus & the Holy Spirit? also study verses 2nd Timothy 2:7 & 15. we also have the Holy Spirit to assist in understanding & our spirit too.

Karlon, you and TruthDefender like to object to scholarship. Now, Romans 1:20 proclaims that God's invisible qualities are possible to be know WITHOUT SCRIPTURE. Now, would either of you care to tell me how these may be discovered without reference to scripture? And an even more interesting challenge, can you present the gospel message without scripture?

And should you wish to shift those questions back at me, the answer is that I am working on the book already. I am currently working on chapter 10 where modern science reveals that God is not only plausible but downright probable and that God MUST be all loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, totally just and totally merciful, all without any reference to Christian or Jewish scripture. I am currently trying to decide when to wrap up chapter 10 and include further comments, there are several, in chapter 11. The naturally reveal nature of "Sin" is part of what I am trying to decide where to place, and the naturally revealed "Sin" is fully compatible with scripture, so be careful about arguing that I cannot do it.

And can you explain how you can be CERTAIN what Paul means in 2 Tim 3:16, when scholarship recognizes that this was an invented word and without being able to ask Paul what he meant, the meaning is unclear? It is obvious that it comes from words for "God" and "breath"/"spirit"/"wind", but precisely what he meant is unclear, as is why he chose not to use the previously widely accepted term, that is unless you spot the plausible connections to multiple other passages that the early church had excellent reasons to conceal. Note, some of those connections are sometimes acknowledged, but never all because if all are acknowledged then we do not understand what the NT was saying, and what it was saying would explain why Rome persecuted the Church.

 

[rewriter]

Yes, the Trinity being 3 and separate, but are in agreement with the Father (as one). The church also is considered the bride of Christ, though there are many members, we should all agree as one in Christ.

You are twisting scripture

 

[sawdust]

Jesus was born of a highly favored woman of God, because He is God the Father’s Son, and is God the Son in the flesh.

Yes. What did I say that contradicted that?

 

[bytheblood]

And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

He lived perfectly as a young Jewish man. Luke 2:41-52

​

​

Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. ​

When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the custom. ​

After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed ​

behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. Thinking he was in their company, ​

they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. ​

When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. After three days they ​

found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them ​

questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. When his ​

parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us ​

like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”​

​

“Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” ​

But they did not understand what he was saying to them.​

​

Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured ​

all these things in her heart. And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.​

grace and peace ........

I know the scripture well, but I was responding to questions, such as HOW Jesus emerged from the tomb. My point is that the bible is silent on these subjects. In response to your post, the only thing that Jesus did physically was be obedient, but in the line of questions I was being asked, it would be HOW He "grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man."

 

[bytheblood]

Working as a tekton, which is a general term for craftsman, more likely a stonemason than a carpenter.

I will agree that Jesus was a carpenters Son, and learned the trade, but I see nothing in scripture that indicates that He ever plied His trade.

 

[bytheblood]

Idk, would you? One man's mortality is another's immorality. I only acknowledge absolute objective truth from God.

Yes, for eternity.

 

[sawdust]

it would be HOW He "grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man."

The same way we do, by believing the word of God, trusting it's veracity and applying it to His life.

 

[Genez]

Jesus was born of a highly favored woman of God, because He is God the Father’s Son, and is God the Son in the flesh.

You keep missing the point on several posts.

 

[Genez]

Are you basing that on CLEAR scripture or your own understanding? And since God was involved in the birth of both Jesus and Sampson, why were they different?

Did Jesus have a human father? No.
Sampson did have a human father.
Samson had a human father named Manoah, a Danite from the town of Zorah, as stated in Judges 13:2-24


In contrast to all others... The Holy Spirit provided what was needed to fertilize Mary's ovum.

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. ​

The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,​

and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”​

​

“How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”​

​

The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power ​

of the Most High will overshadow you. ​

​

So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.​

​

Luke 1:32-35​

 

[TruthDefender]

Karlon, you and TruthDefender like to object to scholarship. Now, Romans 1:20 proclaims that God's invisible qualities are possible to be know WITHOUT SCRIPTURE. Now, would either of you care to tell me how these may be discovered without reference to scripture? And an even more interesting challenge, can you present the gospel message without scripture?

And should you wish to shift those questions back at me, the answer is that I am working on the book already. I am currently working on chapter 10 where modern science reveals that God is not only plausible but downright probable and that God MUST be all loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, totally just and totally merciful, all without any reference to Christian or Jewish scripture. I am currently trying to decide when to wrap up chapter 10 and include further comments, there are several, in chapter 11. The naturally reveal nature of "Sin" is part of what I am trying to decide where to place, and the naturally revealed "Sin" is fully compatible with scripture, so be careful about arguing that I cannot do it.

And can you explain how you can be CERTAIN what Paul means in 2 Tim 3:16, when scholarship recognizes that this was an invented word and without being able to ask Paul what he meant, the meaning is unclear? It is obvious that it comes from words for "God" and "breath"/"spirit"/"wind", but precisely what he meant is unclear, as is why he chose not to use the previously widely accepted term, that is unless you spot the plausible connections to multiple other passages that the early church had excellent reasons to conceal. Note, some of those connections are sometimes acknowledged, but never all because if all are acknowledged then we do not understand what the NT was saying, and what it was saying would explain why Rome persecuted the Church.

I only object, if I don’t find what you say to be Scriptural. We are given an example of the noble Bereans who always searched the Scriptures to see if what was preached was correct.

-“These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17‬:‭11‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Rom. 1:20; yes, it’s like His fingerprint is on everything He created and made. The things created should know their Creator!

Presenting the gospel w/o Scripture depends on to whom you’re presenting. Not everyone is the same.

Yes, Scripture is God breathed through men; the Holy Spirit told the men what to write; there is no discrepancy in Scripture. Men on their own could never have written so much depth and beauty about our history, and about God w/o God intervening.

-“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
‭‭II Timothy‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[TruthDefender]

You are twisting scripture

How?

“And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:”
‭‭John‬ ‭17‬:‭22‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

You gave Me indicates 2; that they be one; as We are one.

 

[Lovette]

Jesus was in the beginning with God the Father, all things were created through Jesus.

Yes, but His authority came from Moses, He was the prophet like Moses. God the Father scared the Israelites to death, a prophet like Moses they would listen.

“The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, according to all you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’ “And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. (Deut. 18:15-19)

 

[Lovette]

Christianity is not a mere expansion.
It is like a butterfly looking back at a caterpillar and trying to relate to it.

The Greek for "new creation" in the following passage, means Christians are an entirely new created thing.
Unlike anything that came before it.

​

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; ​

behold, all things have become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17​

Problem is... too many Christians are failing to walk in the spiritual power potential that God has created them to have.

As for Judaism? I was born a Jew. Grew up Jewish... and found Christ when I was in college.
My big joy was finding a few good teachers who have the gift to dig in and find buried treasures that produce life when held.

grace and peace ..............

Amen, praise be to God. However, the ultimate fulfillment of "all things new" is found in Rev. 21:1-5, at the end of the millennial reign, therefore it shouldn't be taken prematurely.

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea ... And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” (Rev. 21:1-5)

 

[Lovette]

I will agree that Jesus was a carpenters Son, and learned the trade, but I see nothing in scripture that indicates that He ever plied His trade.

I see in scripture numerous references on stones and construction in his teachings and parables, e.g. a house built on a rock is able to withstand natural calamities.

 

[Lovette]

Fulfillment means something later completes something preceding.
Per 1Cor. 15:3 Jesus fulfilled OT prophecy of Messiah atoning for sin,
and the rest will be fulfilled when he returns at the Judgment.

Then it's not fulfilled yet.