Was Mary Sinless?

[Lovette]

I have been following this thread for a while, and as far as I can seen, it has been a long time since a message has been posted that is about the question that forms thread title: "Was Mary Sinless?"

Only if "sin" is strictly defined as pre-marital fornication.

 

[Needevidence]

The text says he is resembling the Son of God, not that he is God. In Genesis, genealogy was the only way to prove priestly right. By leaving his parents out of the record, the author uses Melchizedek as a type to show that, like Jesus, his priesthood is based on God’s appointment rather than an earthly bloodline. Also there’s Heb 7:6. “his genealogy”.

I didn’t say he was God - and there is no evidence that they left his 'parents out of the record' - it clearly says no genealogy or beginning or end. Heb 7:6 doesnt say he has a genealogy

 

[sawdust]

Then how, being made and not born, did Eve get that " breath of life " ( sing., fem.)?

You don't seem to be listening. The word breath is singular feminine but life is plural masculine.

Why do you think it was any different than Adam? Just because it is not stated directly doesn't mean it didn't happen. How do you think any of us get the breath of life? Our spirit and soul is not produced by our parents. Flesh does not give birth to the immaterial.

 

[sawdust]

Okay, my bad, I worded it wrong. Let me ask you this, do you also believe that man is a spiritless soul who receives a spirit at the receiving of Jesus Christ as Savior?

If you are physically dead your soul is separated from your body. Therefore, if you are spiritually dead, why is it so hard to believe your spirit is separated from your soul? It is the Holy Spirit who gives birth to our spirit Jn.3:6 therefore why would He generate something that is defective and is unable to operate as it should. (ie. connect to God)

 

[DavidLamb]

Only if "sin" is strictly defined as pre-marital fornication.

I wasn't thinking of that. I was thinking of the fact that the thread title concerns Mary, and the matter of whether or not she was sinless. People such as Roman Catholics say that she was, and they are not (as far as I am aware) thinking only of the sin of fornication.

 

[Lovette]

I wasn't thinking of that. I was thinking of the fact that the thread title concerns Mary, and the matter of whether or not she was sinless. People such as Roman Catholics say that she was, and they are not (as far as I am aware) thinking only of the sin of fornication.

You weren't, I was, if you're serious on the title subject, and you regard the bible as the ultimate authority, not the catholic church.

 

[DavidLamb]

You weren't, I was, if you're serious on the title subject, and you regard the bible as the ultimate authority, not the catholic church.

Yes, I do regard the bible as the ultimate authority.

 

[Lovette]

Yes, I do regard the bible as the ultimate authority.

Then as I said, only was Mary sinless if "sin" is strictly defined as pre-marital fornication.

 

[Genez]

I went to the market and got a bag of groceries. When I left the store did I get the bag when I LEFT the store or did I carry the bag FROM the store? I had the bag inside AND outside of the store. ' And it came to pass that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the BABE(BABY) leaped in her womb: and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:" It seems that a BABY was in Elisabeth's womb, a person. Have you ever looked at a sonagram. A baby can suck it's thumb, feel pain, etc., etc., and you say that a baby, even in the womb, is not a person? In most jurisdictions in the US if a person shoots a pregnant woman so that she and the child she is carrying dies, the person firing the weapon will be charged with TWO counts of murder, not one, because TWO lives were snuffed out. " Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:5 God sanctified Jeremiah BEFORE he came out of the womb, he, in the womb, was already a person. You seem, to me, with your viewpoint, that abortion is okay with you, while I view it as murder. 60 to 70 million babies or more since the passage of Roe vs Wade. Did you put your amen on that?

A Venus Fly Trap can snap closed on an insect.

 

[Genez]

And it came to pass that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the BABE(BABY) leaped in her womb: and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:"

When a pregnant mother is in a panic the baby in her womb will start jumping around because the mother's system is a direct link with the embryo's. You did not know that?

Google it.... The emotions of the mother have an effect on the embryo.

 

[DavidLamb]

Then as I said, only was Mary sinless if "sin" is strictly defined as pre-marital fornication.

I see what you mean, I think. You are (like me) disagreeing with any idea that Mary was completely sinless, as Jesus was, but that she did not commit forniction.

 

[Lovette]

I see what you mean, I think. You are (like me) disagreeing with any idea that Mary was completely sinless, as Jesus was, but that she did not commit forniction.

No one is sinless, except Adam, Eve and lord Jesus himself. Everybody else was made not directly in the image of God, but indirectly in the image of (post-lapsarian) Adam.

This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. (Gen. 5:1-3)

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned ... (Rom. 5:12)

 

[DavidLamb]

No one is sinless, except Adam, Eve and lord Jesus himself. Everybody else was made not directly in the image of God, but indirectly in the image of (post-lapsarian) Adam.

This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. (Gen. 5:1-3)

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned ... (Rom. 5:12)

Yes I agree, only the Lord Jesus Christ, and Adam & Eve before the Fall were sinless.

 

[bytheblood]

Just because he can doesn't he he should or would. There're some teachings that identify Jesus as an angel, such as Michael the archangel, that's heresy.

Right, "leaders of SAID churches," but who and where are these "said churches" today? I ask you again, are these seven churches just seven particular churches in modern day Turkey, or seven archetypes of churches that are still alive and relevant in modern day? If the former, then they could be men; if the latter, then they can only be spiritual beings, 'cause Bishops, Elders and Pastors don't live forever, angels do; those seven particular churches don't exist anymore, those seven associated spirits do.

Again, you've moved the goal posts, changed your narrative. You posted previously that the letters were written to angelic beings. Now you say that " they COULD be men." They WERE written to men and you know it, Lovette. I repeat, the churches written to are no longer in existence and the letters were written also for future angels ( Bishops, Elders and Pastors) of churches as warnings and/or encouragements in how to operate to avoid the pitfalls and the successes of the earlier churches. Remember, " ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS:" 2 Tim.3:16

 

[bytheblood]

You don't seem to be listening. The word breath is singular feminine but life is plural masculine.

Why do you think it was any different than Adam? Just because it is not stated directly doesn't mean it didn't happen. How do you think any of us get the breath of life? Our spirit and soul is not produced by our parents. Flesh does not give birth to the immaterial.

So do you opine that the" breath of lives" is still carried by the female and that the "breath of lives" mean that the "lives" are spirit and soul separately, as Genez, or does she carry the " breath(singular, female) of live " when she gives birth?

 

[Lovette]

Again, you've moved the goal posts, changed your narrative. You posted previously that the letters were written to angelic beings. Now you say that " they COULD be men." They WERE written to men and you know it, Lovette. I repeat, the churches written to are no longer in existence and the letters were written also for future angels ( Bishops, Elders and Pastors) of churches as warnings and/or encouragements in how to operate to avoid the pitfalls and the successes of the earlier churches. Remember, " ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS:" 2 Tim.3:16

"Bishops, Elders and Pastors" of WHICH churches? How could there be these "Bishops, Elders and Pastors" of said churches when you don't even know what are these "said churches"? What and where is the church of Ephesus today? Of Smyrna? Pergamus?

I said they "could be man" in a sarcastic sense, limited to the "historical interpretation" of the seven churches, that ONLY IF they are those particular seven assemblies in first century Asia minor, nothing more; however, if they are also seven archetypes of churches, not just singular, particular historical churches, which you seem to agree, then how can you narrow down "angel" to one singular, particular leader for a whole archetype of churches? How could "Bishops, Elders and Pastors" of those original seven churches still be around when those seven churches no longer exist? It's just common sense that they must be angelic beings that last forever, and these angelic beings are identified with their characterization - loveless, persecuted, compromised, corrupt, (spiritually) dormant, faithful, lukewarm.

 

[sawdust]

So do you opine that the" breath of lives" is still carried by the female and that the "breath of lives" mean that the "lives" are spirit and soul separately, as Genez, or does she carry the " breath(singular, female) of live " when she gives birth?

What are you saying? I don't think you understand what is being said because I'm finding your responses confusing.

God breathed two lives into Adam, the soul He created in Gen1:27 and a human spirit. Human life and spiritual life breathed into his biological life to create a human being alive in this world, a living soul. Eve's soul, created in Gen.1:27, was not breathed into Adam. Only Eve's body was made from Adam. To be a person as God designed is to be spirit, soul and body.

Gen.1:27
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Just because the scripture does not state God breathed into Eve doesn't mean it didn't happen that way. I see no reason to believe she did not become a living soul the exact same way that Adam did.

Gen.1:27
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

I suggested possibly "breath" is in the feminine because it is at the point of bringing a man into the world which is a female role and Jn.3:6 states "the Spirit gives birth to spirit" so maybe that is why breath is feminine. We know God is neither male or female but He expresses Himself with the characteristics of both and the Spirit is often portrayed in a female role ie the birth I just spoke of, the Comforter, being a nurturer etc.

Only God can create a soul and only the Spirit can give birth to a human spirit so unless you were still born, there is only One who you can thank for being alive today. Our parents gave us biological life but it is God who gives us human and spiritual life. Human life did not evolve, it was created and we receive it at birth.

 

[bytheblood]

If you are physically dead your soul is separated from your body. Therefore, if you are spiritually dead, why is it so hard to believe your spirit is separated from your soul? It is the Holy Spirit who gives birth to our spirit Jn.3:6 therefore why would He generate something that is defective and is unable to operate as it should. (ie. connect to God)

It is not hard for me to believe that the spirit and soul can be separated, the Word says so, " For the Word of God is quick(living), and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the DIVIDING ASUNDER OF THE SOUL AND SPIRIT...." Heb.4:12. The Word of God is the only thing that separates the spirit and soul, so when God breathed the "breath of life(or lives)" into Adam it was with soul and spirit included. " Then shall the dust (body) RETURN to the earth as it was: and the SPIRIT SHALL RETURN UNTO GOD WHO GAVE IT." Ecc. 12:7. If ALL bodies return to the dust, than ALL spirits return to God, not just those born again. What's hanging in the balance is the final destination of the soul. Spiritually dead is not the absence of the spirit, it is the spirit that is quickened (enlivened), which beforehand was " dead in trespasses and sins", to the spiritual things of God. I liken it to a battery that we consider "dead", unable to operate, but if it is recharged or regenerated, then, like our spirits, which can operate spiritually after the Word, with our believing and receiving it.

 

[Lovette]

Again, you've moved the goal posts, changed your narrative. You posted previously that the letters were written to angelic beings. Now you say that " they COULD be men." They WERE written to men and you know it, Lovette. I repeat, the churches written to are no longer in existence and the letters were written also for future angels ( Bishops, Elders and Pastors) of churches as warnings and/or encouragements in how to operate to avoid the pitfalls and the successes of the earlier churches. Remember, " ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS:" 2 Tim.3:16

BTW, in case you read these seven letters as generic advise like the Pauline epistles, they are NOT. Notice that Jesus started all seven with "I know your works", he was judging these churches and reviewing their job performance, not just responding to arising issues and offering advise. So, if these letters are applicable to future churches, whatever they are, then Jesus was judging them at the end of the church age, not the beginning, since he was reviewing the COMPLETED works of these churches, not offering advise on how they should do their work in the future.

 

[bytheblood]

What are you saying? I don't think you understand what is being said because I'm finding your responses confusing.

God breathed two lives into Adam, the soul He created in Gen1:27 and a human spirit. Human life and spiritual life breathed into his biological life to create a human being alive in this world, a living soul. Eve's soul, created in Gen.1:27, was not breathed into Adam. Only Eve's body was made from Adam. To be a person as God designed is to be spirit, soul and body.

Gen.1:27
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Just because the scripture does not state God breathed into Eve doesn't mean it didn't happen that way. I see no reason to believe she did not become a living soul the exact same way that Adam did.

Gen.1:27
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

I suggested possibly "breath" is in the feminine because it is at the point of bringing a man into the world which is a female role and Jn.3:6 states "the Spirit gives birth to spirit" so maybe that is why breath is feminine. We know God is neither male or female but He expresses Himself with the characteristics of both and the Spirit is often portrayed in a female role ie the birth I just spoke of, the Comforter, being a nurturer etc.

Only God can create a soul and only the Spirit can give birth to a human spirit so unless you were still born, there is only One who you can thank for being alive today. Our parents gave us biological life but it is God who gives us human and spiritual life. Human life did not evolve, it was created and we receive it at birth.

Since you and Genez seem to be walking in lock-step he opines that man doesn't have a spirit until being born again. One of the definitions of "born" in John 3:6 ghen-nah-o is REgenerate Greek 1080 Strong's.