Was Mary Sinless?

[sawdust]

By definition of the word,Scripture, graphḗ γραφή,in Koine Greek, Scripture is merely referring to writing,or something written.

So yes,as I said, Paul's (Saul's) letters,Epistles,we're just that.

Whereas writing God ordained Scripture is, θεόπνευστος,
theopneustos, "God Breathed, is pheromenoi , " carried along by the Holy Spirit", when committing to recording the writings from that source.

Paul,Saul, writing in 2 Timothy 3:16, was referring to the Tanakh,the Hebrew Old Testament.

Then by your definition should we throw out the New Testament?

Seeing as it was only Paul "writing" in 2Tim, and we cannot be sure it is actually God inspired then he claiming the OT was God inspired may or may not be correct as it is only Paul's opinion.

Rather circular if you ask me.

 

[Bible_Locket]

Then by your definition should we throw out the New Testament?

My post implied no such thing.

Seeing as it was only Paul "writing" in 2Tim, and we cannot be sure it is actually God inspired then he claiming the OT was God inspired may or may not be correct as it is only Paul's opinion.

Rather circular if you ask me.

Not at all.
Discernment, more like.

Read Saul's Epistles to his churches. Those are his instructions.

No different than King Davids personal "journaling" in the Old Testament.

 

[Bible_Locket]

You are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Are you claiming you are without sin?

Every Born Again Holy Spirit filled Christian is.

Imagine the contradiction if a person identifying as Christian gave this testimony.
I am Saved from my sins. They were put under the blood of Jesus and the Father remembers them no more. I am a new creation in Christ. And I am a Sinner who Sins,and must repent of new transgressions in order to be Saved again and again from my sins.
Because as a new creation I'm still that same old sinner who sins.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

Precisely.
Now imagine those who insist that temple that is not their own is still a sinner who sins.
If they're not their own then they're implying an upgrade on their transgressive nature. Now,it is the Holy Spirit within that temple that sins.
When they're not their own,they can't sin unless that whose they are is the transgressor.

That's why the actual Good News rightly understood says we are no longer Sinners who sin.
Otherwise those gifts,new creation,born again,cleansed of our dins God remembers no more,is false.

 

[sawdust]

My post implied no such thing.



Not at all.
Discernment, more like.

Read Saul's Epistles to his churches. Those are his instructions.

No different than King Davids personal "journaling" in the Old Testament.

You implied Paul's writings were not scripture. You can twist and turn all you like but that was the implication. Are you now saying Paul's writings are scripture just as David's "journaling" is scripture?

 

[sawdust]

Every Born Again Holy Spirit filled Christian is.

Imagine the contradiction if a person identifying as Christian gave this testimony.
I am Saved from my sins. They were put under the blood of Jesus and the Father remembers them no more. I am a new creation in Christ. And I am a Sinner who Sins,and must repent of new transgressions in order to be Saved again and again from my sins.
Because as a new creation I'm still that same old sinner who sins.

Precisely.
Now imagine those who insist that temple that is not their own is still a sinner who sins.
If they're not their own then they're implying an upgrade on their transgressive nature. Now,it is the Holy Spirit within that temple that sins.
When they're not their own,they can't sin unless that whose they are is the transgressor.

That's why the actual Good News rightly understood says we are no longer Sinners who sin.
Otherwise those gifts,new creation,born again,cleansed of our dins God remembers no more,is false.

So you are without sin and never sin. Must be nice to be so perfected even though you remain in this corruptible and mortal body and your mind remains seeing in a mirror dimly without the full knowledge of God. Not sure what you think caused the death of your spirit, soul and body if not sin.

The Good News does not say we are no longer sinners who sin. It gives us hope/confidence that we are saved from the consequence of sin (the new birth), are being saved from the power of sin (sanctification) and will be saved from the presence of sin (resurrection).

You sin, you just don't know it.

 

[Bible_Locket]

So you are without sin and never sin. Must be nice to be so perfected even though you remain in this corruptible and mortal body and your mind remains seeing in a mirror dimly without the full knowledge of God. Not sure what you think caused the death of your spirit, soul and body if not sin.

The Good News does not say we are no longer sinners who sin. It gives us hope/confidence that we are saved from the consequence of sin (the new birth), are being saved from the power of sin (sanctification) and will be saved from the presence of sin (resurrection).

You sin, you just don't know it.

You don't know what you're reading.
You just don't know it.

Especially when you insist Immanuel was born from the womb of a sinner.

 

[bytheblood]

All I can say is you must be blind as it says it in black and white in the very text. To have soul is to have breath.

They became living souls from the earth. Their body and soul was manufactured from the elements of the ground.

Here is the link as it would appear you didn't bother to look at it. I wonder if you even realise to have a soul is to be something that breathes as the basic meaning of the word translated soul means breath.

Strong's Hebrew English Morphology 559 [e] וַיֹּ֣אמֶר way-yō-mer And said Conj-w | V-Qal-ConsecImperf-3ms 430 [e] אֱלֹהִ֗ים ’ĕ-lō-hîm God N-mp 3318 [e] תּוֹצֵ֨א tō-w-ṣê Let bring forth V-Hifil-Imperf.Jus-3fs 776 [e] הָאָ֜רֶץ hā-’ā-reṣ the earth Art | N-fs 5315 [e] נֶ֤פֶשׁ ne-p̄eš soul N-fs 2416 [e] חַיָּה֙ ḥay-yāh living Adj-fs 4327 [e] לְמִינָ֔הּ lə-mî-nāh according to its kind Prep-l | N-msc | 3fs 929 [e] בְּהֵמָ֥ה bə-hê-māh Livestock N-fs 7431 [e] וָרֶ֛מֶשׂ wā-re-meś and the crawling thing Conj-w | N-ms 2416 [e] וְחַֽיְתוֹ־ wə-ḥay-ṯōw- and beast Conj-w | N-fsc | 3ms 776 [e] אֶ֖רֶץ ’e-reṣ of the earth N-fs 4327 [e] לְמִינָ֑הּ lə-mî-nāh according to its kind Prep-l | N-msc | 3fs 1961 [e] וַֽיְהִי־ way-hî- and it was Conj-w | V-Qal-ConsecImperf-3ms 3651 [e] כֵֽן׃ ḵên so Adv

Does that mean if you don't have breath there is no soul? Or there is no living soul? What makes a soul living? Is it spirit? Tell me what your take is on Isaiah 42:5 " Thus saith God the Lord, He who created the heavens, and stretched them out; He who spread forth the Earth, and that which comes out of it; He who gives BREATH unto the people upon it, and SPIRIT ( Heb. 7307 ru-wach; fig. Life, by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being, including it's expression and function) to them who walk therein." This seems to indicate that man, a rational being, possesses a spirit, whether saved or not. For spirit to mean breath, in this instance, would be redundant. If man doesn't have a spirit he doesn't have breath and is bereft of life. The body without the spirit is dead.

 

[PaulThomson]

From a discussion elsewhere I had about the nature of Sin...


I don't agree. Jesus' flesh and human spirit had no sin at all. Jesus was likely given Mary's DNA but without Joseph's DNA because Joseph would then have taken credit for a "Work" in producing Christ. Flawed Works had to be atoned for and could not produce Eternal Life. Jesus was Eternal Life and was the product of God's Work alone.

DNA can apparently produce defective combinations, but in Mary's case it appears that God "healed" any possible defects in the order of these chemical combinations and the state they were in. The flesh within her imperfect flesh was rendered perfect as far as Christ's being was concerned.

Because human Works are carried on through reproduction, all of mankind, except for Christ, have inherited a Sin Nature and cannot, apart from Christ's Grace, obtain Eternal Life. All of us inherit human DNA as well as a sin-infected human spirituality that disqualifies us from obtaining Eternal Life apart from Christ's Grace.

We all sin, even though through Christ our New Christian Nature may prevail over our Sin impulses--not perfectly but sufficient to show the Nature that we have chosen to reign in our lives. Inheriting human DNA means we inherit flawed Human Flesh. But the Sin is not in the fleshly flaws, eg diseases but rather in the spiritual corruption.

The flesh and the spirit are two separate things. Before we do any Sin we have already been born with a contaminated spiritual nature and will Sin as soon as we are able.

Again, the trial we undergo in life is in proving what Nature we wish to prevail--our New Nature from Christ, which desires to submit to Christ's Righteousness, or our carnal Nature, which wishes to make choices independent of God, even if at times those choices agree with God's choices.

The real battle is in choosing to partner with God *always,* because this proves what Nature we choose to have and to dominate in Eternity. It is not our Sin Nature that condemns us in Eternity. Rather, it is in our choice for Christ, producing a New Nature, or not.

First, to make your thread title and subsequent argument make any sense, you need to define what you mean by “sin’, and then apply that meaning to “sin" in “sinless”. IMO we are all born innocent/sinless.
Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil…

 

[sawdust]

You don't know what you're reading.
You just don't know it.

Especially when you insist Immanuel was born from the womb of a sinner.

Sure, I'm just an ignorant sinner. Can't argue the message, just attack the messenger instead.

Have a nice Day.

 

[randyk]

First, to make your thread title and subsequent argument make any sense, you need to define what you mean by “sin’, and then apply that meaning to “sin" in “sinless”. IMO we are all born innocent/sinless.
Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil…

As I said, Sin is a *spiritual condition* and not just a matter of reproducing defective physical DNA. As such, we inherit our parents' DNA physically as well as their Sin Nature spiritually.

So I take issue with your claim infants are not born in Sin. I believe they are.

 

[bytheblood]

Does that mean if you don't have breath there is no soul? Or there is no living soul? What makes a soul living? Is it spirit? Tell me what your take is on Isaiah 42:5 " Thus saith God the Lord, He who created the heavens, and stretched them out; He who spread forth the Earth, and that which comes out of it; He who gives BREATH unto the people upon it, and SPIRIT ( Heb. 7307 ru-wach; fig. Life, by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being, including it's expression and function) to them who walk therein." This seems to indicate that man, a rational being, possesses a spirit, whether saved or not. For spirit to mean breath, in this instance, would be redundant. If man doesn't have a spirit he doesn't have breath and is bereft of life. The body without the spirit is dead.

P.S." When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is finished: and He bowed His head, and gave up the ghost (spirit)." John 19:30. Mans spirit is it's life force, ALL of mankind.

 

[PaulThomson]

Perhaps a bit of semantics, but we are born in trespass and sin. We sin because we are sinners by nature. Jesus received His nature from the Holy Spirit, not from fallen Adam. So the only escape is to accept Christ as saviour.

Your two statements placed side by side imply the second is a result of the first.
1. “… we are born in trespass and sin."
2. "We sin because we are sinners by nature”.

I was conceived in a hotel room and I was born in a hospital. That in no way implies that I have a hotel room and a hospital IN me. And either does it imply, in any way, that I have a hotel room nature or a hospital nature.

We are born IN trespasses and sin, does not imply in any way that we sin because we have a sin nature, or are sinners by nature.

 

[sawdust]

Does that mean if you don't have breath there is no soul? Or there is no living soul? What makes a soul living? Is it spirit? Tell me what your take is on Isaiah 42:5 " Thus saith God the Lord, He who created the heavens, and stretched them out; He who spread forth the Earth, and that which comes out of it; He who gives BREATH unto the people upon it, and SPIRIT ( Heb. 7307 ru-wach; fig. Life, by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being, including it's expression and function) to them who walk therein." This seems to indicate that man, a rational being, possesses a spirit, whether saved or not. For spirit to mean breath, in this instance, would be redundant. If man doesn't have a spirit he doesn't have breath and is bereft of life. The body without the spirit is dead.

Just can't stay on topic can you. We were talking about how animals are made. If you have no breath you are dead, be you man or beast.

You have no answer when shown animals are made living souls from the earth. So be it. Stay ignorant.

As for Is.42:5. You must be born again for what purpose? To be alive in this world or to see the Kingdom of God? Notice how there is a separation between God giving breath and God giving spirit. Two different operations for two different reasons. Not all are given a spirit to made alive spiritually, but all are given breath to be made alive physically in this world. Only believers are born from above.

You can keep on ignoring the reason a man is given a spirit but it won't help. And once again he is to be born spiritually, not have a deadened spirit resuscitated.

You obviously have no new arguments, just the same old errors.

Have a nice Day.

 

[Bible_Locket]

Sure, I'm just an ignorant sinner. Can't argue the message, just attack the messenger instead.

I've argued the message with you repeatedly.
You are entrenched in error.

Because you don't first get the message of Immanuel.
Don't play victim and the blame game.
That's a sin.

Have a nice Day.

I always do. Same to you.

 

[Bible_Locket]

As I said, Sin is a *spiritual condition* and not just a matter of reproducing defective physical DNA. As such, we inherit our parents' DNA physically as well as their Sin Nature spiritually.

You're right.
Holy Spirit God cursed all humanity for eternity on Earth for the one mistake the first of our kind made in Eden.

"God is Love" Gideon300

So I take issue with your claim infants are not born in Sin. I believe they are.

Newborns, the unborn,go to Hell as sinners if they die in utero or as newborns?

 

[sawdust]

I've argued the message with you repeatedly.

You've repeated your errors. Why would John tell us to confess our sins 1Jn.1:9 if we never sin? Why would Paul command us to walk after the Spirit and not the flesh Gal.5:16 if it was impossible to sin? You make no logical sense.

 

[Lovette]

Why is this still a debate? Was Mary sinless? Absolutely not, the end.

 

[randyk]

You're right.
Holy Spirit God cursed all humanity for eternity on Earth for the one mistake the first of our kind made in Eden.

"God is Love" Gideon300

Newborns, the unborn,go to Hell as sinners if they die in utero or as newborns?

I don't think you sincerely want answers. You've picked the spirit you want to come from.

 

[randyk]

Why is this still a debate? Was Mary sinless? Absolutely not, the end.

It really isn't. But I had taken a break from this forum and returned to see a few replies that I hadn't seen. So yes, the only ones who wish to debate it are set in their ways.

 

[loveme1]

Nothing to do with us.. a chosen lady to bring the Lord into the world… Blessed we call her.. found GOD’s Favour. Praise the Almighty for His wonderous ways.