Was Simon the Sorcerer saved?

[Wansvic]

They believed and received the Holy Spirit, no water baptism necessary. The tongues were given as a sign to the Jews present that the gospel was going out to Gentiles.

What you state others believe regardless of what the presented account actually reveals. Consider what Ananias (a messenger from God) told Paul to do and what it reveals about the purpose of water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus.

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16

This is yet another confirmation of the purpose of water baptism in God's plan of salvation.

 

[Wansvic]

They believed and received the Holy Spirit, no water baptism necessary. The tongues were given as a sign to the Jews present that the gospel was going out to Gentiles.

The group was commanded to submit to water baptism in the name of the Lord as well.

If tongues are for the purpose you believe, please explain why the Ephesus disciples in Acts 19:1-6 spoke in tongues upon receiving the Holy Ghost. This event happened over 20 years after speaking in tongues revealed that the 120 had been indwelt by the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost.

 

[mailmandan]

Acts 2 is a detailed account of Ephesians 1:13 in action. After being presented with the "word of truth the gospel of salvation" the hearers believed Peter's entire message and placing their trust in Jesus obeyed the commands and were sealed/received the Holy Ghost. This is confirmed by all detailed conversion accounts in the biblical record.

Ephesians 1:13 clearly states that these hearers of the gospel BELIEVED (no mention of obeying multiple commands after they believed the gospel) and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Nothing is mentioned here about them receiving the Holy Spirit following water baptism after they believed the gospel. That is your eisegesis.

Here are the instances of conversions in Acts where baptism is mentioned:

2:37-41
8:5-13
8:37, 38
9:1-18, 22
10:43, 48
16:14
16:30-34
18:8
19:5

This is a total of only nine accounts where baptism is mentioned.

Now, here are the accounts in Acts which speak of conversions where baptism is not mentioned:

2:47
4:4
5:14
6:7
9:35
9:42
11:21
11:24
Chapters 13 and 14 -- Paul's first journey -- baptism never mentioned.
13:12

13:43
13:48
14:1
14:7, 22
14:21
14:27
16:5
17:4
17:12
17:34
19:17-20
28:23, 24

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," Eph 1:13

Heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, having BELIEVED "apart from additions or modification" were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

As mentioned previously, all elements associated with the NT rebirth are required regardless of the sequence as revealed from scripture.

Your false gospel is the result of cherry picking scripture and flawed hermeneutics.

 

[mailmandan]

If, as you believe, Jesus was not referencing water baptism why do the detailed conversion accounts include the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus? And individuals receiving the infilling of the Holy Spirit as well? Clearly a parallel to water and Spirit.

I already thoroughly explained this in post #109. Did you even bother to read it?

 

[mailmandan]

Why deflect?

Why did you deflect by refusing to answer my question?

Did you know that every detailed water baptism after Jesus' sacrifice was administered in the name of Jesus. Why? As Paul indicated, submitting to baptism is in accordance with the crucifixion of Jesus. (1 Cor. 1:13) And those who obey the command are buried with Jesus by baptism into death. (Romans 6:4)

I already thoroughly explained this in post #109 as well. Again, do you even bother to read what I post? You like to repeat yourself as you continue to "parrot off" what your predecessors before you have taught. Now be honest and don't deflect and answer my question this time. Are you a Oneness Pentecostal?

 

[mailmandan]

Believing and placing one's trust in Jesus is what prompts obedience to the commands to repent and be baptized in water in His name.

Believing by placing one's trust in Jesus means that we are trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation and not in water baptism and other works. You seem to define believing "as" repent and be baptized in water and using the "in Jesus name only" formula. Do you believe that we also must speak in tongues in order to be saved?

As stated in Hebrews 5:9, Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to those who obey Him.

So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

There are those who believe in Jesus who will hear the dreaded words, "I never knew you." After making that comment Jesus went on to provide an answer to their dilemma. They were guilty of building on a faulty foundation.

Their faulty foundation was works salvation (Matthew 7:22) and Jesus never knew these many people (nominal/pseudo Christians) which means they were never saved. (Matthew 7:23)

They were without excuse because God provided the foundational pattern for all generations to follow. Obedience toward God's commands in various forms is a consistent theme throughout the bible.

External obedience to certain commands with the wrong motivation and for the wrong reasons, resulting in works righteousness, is the wrong foundation. Water baptism "follows" salvation through faith. Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel.

Jesus is the Word. And the Word is revealing; to reject it is to reject Jesus.

Why do you refuse to believe the gospel?

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

I find it very ironic for you to cited this verse.

 

[mailmandan]

Some of the scriptures you list do reference baptism.

Not as a prerequisite for salvation.

Also, if you will recall the following was shared in a different thread:

Many question why some biblical records are silent concerning the requirements associated with the NT rebirth outlined in Acts 2:35-38. They conclude, wrongly, that silence is evidence that not all are required. God inspired Luke to record five NT conversion experiences in detail. These accounts in the Book of Acts establish a precedent for every situation. As such it was not necessary to mention every detail in all cases. (Lydia, the jailer, eunu-ch, etc.) The same principle is seen in the Gospel accounts regarding Jesus' miracles, etc. There would not be enough room to contain the books that would be written. (John 21:25)

We must properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine and not distort and pervert passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" a false gospel plan that culminates in works righteousness. Your obsession with water baptism has led me to believe that you would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water. Your church indoctrination runs very deep.

 

[Wansvic]

@mailmandan
The following is in answer to your last 5 posts:

I read all of your posts. However, I choose not accept your opinion but rather to believe the word in its entirety. You accuse me of cherry picking scriptures when in fact you are guilty of doing that. You refuse to accept the foundational principles of the NT rebirth as designed by God, and expressed in the Acts of the Apostles. Your assessment that I "parrot" a particular denominations viewpoint is false. As to my familiarity with scriptures relevant to water baptism that was not a journey I initiated. It was the Lord who directed me. I was surprised myself how often He led me to both Old and New Testament scriptures relevant to the topic. Often were the times I didn't know what to read and was shocked when upon opening the bible my eyes rested, once again, on scripture relevant to baptism. It took quite some time before I realized that I was being equipped to share the reality of the importance of being obedient to the command.

I shared scripture that proves water baptism was consistently administered in the name of the Jesus and you direct me to a website that speaks against the very word of God. You may want to consider actually accepting what the word of God reveals.

As for speaking in tongues, again, the bible is the final authority. It reveals speaking in tongues was the evidence God chose to reveal that people were in fact indwelt by the Holy Ghost. And since scripture reveals being indwelt by the Holy Ghost is a requirement of salvation, I choose to believe it.

Clearly we disagree as to what scripture conveys as witnessed by our posts. I don't see a need to continue going in circles. My earnest prayer is that God continues to open the eyes of each and everyone's understanding, and that certainly includes me.

 

[mailmandan]

@mailmandan
The following is in answer to your last 5 posts:

I read all of your posts. However, I choose not accept your opinion but rather to believe the word in its entirety. You accuse me of cherry picking scriptures when in fact you are guilty of doing that. You refuse to accept the foundational principles of the NT rebirth as designed by God, and expressed in the Acts of the Apostles. Your assessment that I "parrot" a particular denominations viewpoint is false. As to my familiarity with scriptures relevant to water baptism that was not a journey I initiated. It was the Lord who directed me. I was surprised myself how often He led me to both Old and New Testament scriptures relevant to the topic. Often were the times I didn't know what to read and was shocked when upon opening the bible my eyes rested, once again, on scripture relevant to baptism. It took quite some time before I realized that I was being equipped to share the reality of the importance of being obedient to the command.

I shared scripture that proves water baptism was consistently administered in the name of the Jesus and you direct me to a website that speaks against the very word of God. You may want to consider actually accepting what the word of God reveals.

As for speaking in tongues, again, the bible is the final authority. It reveals speaking in tongues was the evidence God chose to reveal that people were in fact indwelt by the Holy Ghost. And since scripture reveals being indwelt by the Holy Ghost is a requirement of salvation, I choose to believe it.

Clearly we disagree as to what scripture conveys as witnessed by our posts. I don't see a need to continue going in circles. My earnest prayer is that God continues to open the eyes of each and everyone's understanding, and that certainly includes me.

I shared scripture with you and not simply my opinion. You shared your eisegesis about water baptism in Jesus name only formula as a necessary prerequisite for salvation (as Oneness Pentecostals teach) and you continue to dodge my question (about being a Oneness Pentecostal) which I find very suspicious.

The website I directed you to speaks for the word of God and not against it. Speaking in tongues is "an" evidence that people are indwelt by the Holy Spirit but it's NOT "the" evidence for all. The answer to Paul's rhetorical questions in 1 Corinthians 12:29-30 is NO. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

I choose to believe the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) I trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of my salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) You trust in a "different" gospel of salvation by water baptism using a specific formula only, along with speaking in tongues for salvation, as taught by Oneness Pentecostals. You need to reconsider who is really directing you. I pray that the Lord will open your eyes to the truth and that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, will shine on you.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Many believe that Simon the Sorcerer was actually a believer, others say he was not, and still others say he was saved but then lost his salvation. If we interpret scripture correctly, one CANNOT lose their salvation. The book of Ephesians teaches that once someone accepts and believes in the Truth of Jesus Christ, then that person's salvation is "sealed". Concerning Simon the Sorcerer, there is really not a lot to go on. The Bible doesn't say too much about this man. Church leaders such as Justin Martyr describe Simon as having heretical views, claiming that he is known in history as Simon Magus, "Magus" being a term which means sorcerer or magician. In our history books we learn that Simon the Sorcerer had followers called "Simonians" which held certain gnostic beliefs. This also led to the belief that he was one of the originators of Gnosticism. Philip Schaff, author of History of the Christian church, believes Simon was in constant opposition to the Apostle Peter. But not all church leaders have such a bad opinion of Simon. Some have suggested that Scripture points to him having the same saving faith as the rest of the people being baptized in the book of Acts.

Acts 8:13
"Then Simon himself believed also: And when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done." It would seem in this passage that Simon received the same saving faith as the people in verse 12 did. Would it not be arbitrary to deny Luke's affirmation of Simon's salvation while accepting his affirmation of the other's?

Acts 8:17-23
Peter and John laid their hands on the people so that they received the Holy Spirit. Simon was amazed at seeing this and asked how he could receive such power. Peter says to him, "Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money." Although Simon had made an outward profession of faith(baptism), his response demonstrates his lack of spiritual life. Every Christian can fall into temptations just as easily as Simon did.

Arguments for Simon's salvation
1. We have to trust and believe that since the author, Luke, who was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, revealed that the Samaritans believed and were baptized and were saved, then we must also have to include Simon.
2. Peter never says that Simon didn't believe nor rejected Christ.
3. Simon responds by asking the Apostles to pray for him, which normally describes a believers response.
Arguments against Simon's salvation
1. Simon practiced sorcery and demonstrated illusions of the mind, which some people would attribute this as a way to discredit God's power.
2. Church leaders take to passages such as Acts 8:21, "heart not being right with God."
3. Simon pleads with Peter to pray for him on his behalf to the Lord. Many take this to mean that if Simon were saved he could have prayed himself and asked God's forgiveness, if he were truly saved.

We should be careful when examining these passages concerning Simon the Sorcerer's salvation. The passages of scripture just doesn't give the reader enough information to make a doctrinal conclusion. But scripture does say that Simon believed. Just because the Bible doesn't mention the Holy Spirit falling upon him, doesn't mean He never did. Simon's NEED in the story many not have been to be saved.......maybe he already was? Maybe it was to repent of specific sins and be forgiven. Grace that saves unbelievers freely will also forgive believers abundantly.

There is more than enough information for us to conclude that Simon was indeed saved by faith; born again.


But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great, to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the great power of God.” And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time. But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done. Acts 8:9-13


Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip


Water baptism is for those who have believed and are saved.





JPT

 

[mailmandan]

There is more than enough information for us to conclude that Simon was indeed saved by faith; born again.

But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great, to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the great power of God.” And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time. But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done. Acts 8:9-13

Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip

Water baptism is for those who have believed and are saved.

JPT

Before you jump to that conclusion, be sure to read post #24.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/was-simon-the-sorcerer-saved.209192/page-2

 

[Wansvic]

I shared scripture with you and not simply my opinion. You shared your eisegesis about water baptism in Jesus name only formula as a necessary prerequisite for salvation (as Oneness Pentecostals teach) and you continue to dodge my question (about being a Oneness Pentecostal) which I find very suspicious.

The website I directed you to speaks for the word of God and not against it. Speaking in tongues is "an" evidence that people are indwelt by the Holy Spirit but it's NOT "the" evidence for all. The answer to Paul's rhetorical questions in 1 Corinthians 12:29-30 is NO. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

I choose to believe the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) I trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of my salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) You trust in a "different" gospel of salvation by water baptism using a specific formula only, along with speaking in tongues for salvation, as taught by Oneness Pentecostals. You need to reconsider who is really directing you. I pray that the Lord will open your eyes to the truth and that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, will shine on you.

Speaking of denominations, years ago an interesting thought popped into my mind. With just a few twist of letters the word denomination could very well be read DEMON I NATIONS. Meaning it's all about me, myself and I, regardless of what God has to say.

Clearly, denominations were formed by those who accept some, but not all of God's truth as revealed in His word. Each has a belief system that represents the personal experiences, or lack thereof of a particular group of people; ie, speaking in tongues, etc. I picture them in a line at a buffet, eager to accept and receive some things, and turning their nose up at things they find unappealing or have never even tried/tasted.

Placing confidence in a particular denomination's belief system and refusing to step out of one's comfort zone and pursue what scripture actually reveals is not wise. As a Jesus follower I choose to accept ALL that God's word reveals. And that includes the foundational principles of the NT rebirth as designed by God, and expressed in the Acts of the Apostles. God honors His word; as such, those who believe and obey Him will receive revelation, their spiritual eyes will become opened.