Was the person who falls away drawn to Jesus by the Father?

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Grandpa

Senior Member
#81
Jun 24, 2011
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#81
Judges1318 said:
Where does the verse say 'if they could fall away'?
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Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,


5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#82
Apr 7, 2014
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#82
Grandpa said:
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
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I have commonly heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it "unequivocally" teaches a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation," as I thoroughly explained in post #125,633.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-6282#post-4148982
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#84
Jun 24, 2011
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#84
seed_time_harvest

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#87
Dec 9, 2011
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#87
Judges1318 said:
In the Parable of the Sower, if the 2nd type of soil person was never really saved to begin with were they drawn to Christ on their own, or were they drawn by the Father?

"13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." - Luke 8:13

44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them" - John 6:44
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A person that wants to get saved must repent In Truth.When a person repents In Truth GOD comes In and then Salvation.
 
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Judges1318

Banned
#88
Nov 16, 2019
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#88
Grandpa said:
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,


5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
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It doesn't say it is impossible to fall away. It says it is impossible to be renewed to repentance.
 
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Judges1318

Banned
#89
Nov 16, 2019
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#89
Dave-L said:
Accepting Jesus is trying to keep the 1st commandment.
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Then that means there IS a law that imparts life.

"For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law." - Galatians 3:21

If believing is the equivalent of God keeping the 1st Commandment for us then righteousness is based on the law. But as we can see, the Bible says it is not based on the law.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#90
Jan 17, 2020
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#90
Judges1318 said:
Then that means there IS a law that imparts life.

"For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law." - Galatians 3:21

If believing is the equivalent of God keeping the 1st Commandment for us then righteousness is based on the law. But as we can see, the Bible says it is not based on the law.
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The law cannot save. Neither can a legalistic gospel which relates to free will self salvation through obedience.
 
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Judges1318

Banned
#91
Nov 16, 2019
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#91
Dave-L said:
The law cannot save.
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That's right.
That's why your suggestion that God keeps the 1st Commandment for us to save us is wrong.

Dave-L said:
Neither can a legalistic gospel which relates to free will self salvation through obedience.
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Trusting in Christ is not legalism.

Exercising free will is not the definition of the works gospel.
Keeping the works of the law for justification is the definition of the works gospel.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#92
Jun 24, 2011
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#92
Judges1318 said:
It doesn't say it is impossible to fall away. It says it is impossible to be renewed to repentance.
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Yes.

It would be impossible, if a truly saved person who had been to Christ and all that entails, if they became un-saved for them to then become re-saved.

It is impossible consequences deriving from an impossible hypothetical situation.


It is impossible, if you were flying in a plane, if that plane were to disappear to remain flying.

The subject of the impossibility is to remain flying. But the plane disappearing is also an impossibility that is kind of ignored in order to show the results of this impossible hypothetical situation.


Of course, if you were trying really hard to prove that once a person was flying they could stop flying mid-flight then you would ignore this aspect of the impossible situation. You would just say, "see right there, it says you can stop flying mid flight".
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#93
Jan 17, 2020
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#93
Judges1318 said:
That's right.
That's why your suggestion that God keeps the 1st Commandment for us to save us is wrong.


Trusting in Christ is not legalism.

Exercising free will is not the definition of the works gospel.
Keeping the works of the law for justification is the definition of the works gospel.
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I did not say God saves us through keeping the first commandment. People try this and remain lost.
 
Elihoenai

Elihoenai

Banned
#94
Nov 8, 2019
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#94
Judges1318 said:
'No root' is an obvious figure of speech. You've probably used it yourself before. No plant grows without any roots at all.

Recently a giant tree fell over on the land across the road from my house. I was amazed to see it had 'no root'. Of course it had roots (no plant grows without roots), but it's roots were only a few inches long, and so it was not firmly rooted in the ground. And so it is with the word of God that sprang up and was growing in soil #2:

"6Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up (it was growing), the plants withered because they had no moisture.

13Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

The problem was the word of God had no deep root in the heart of this believer and did not reach deep sources of water to sustain that word in them when the heat of the sun beat on them, and so the word dried up. If you've ever cleaned out trees starting to grow in the gutters on a house you'll see that clearly demonstrated.

The Galatians are a good example of the #2 soil believer.
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Colossians 2:6-8 King James Version (KJV)

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


Watch out for those spewing out and promoting Hot Air and Waffle.
 
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Judges1318

Banned
#95
Nov 16, 2019
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#95
Dave-L said:
I did not say God saves us through keeping the first commandment. People try this and remain lost.
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Abraham believed the Promise of God and that had nothing to do with the law. Paul explains this clearly.
Abraham is the example of believing in the Promise of God that we are to follow in.
That is not keeping the law. There was no law at this time.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#96
Jan 17, 2020
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#96
Judges1318 said:
Abraham believed the Promise of God and that had nothing to do with the law. Paul explains this clearly.
Abraham is the example of believing in the Promise of God that we are to follow in.
That is not keeping the law. There was no law at this time.
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If believing is a condition for salvation, the gospel becomes law and grace becomes works. Faith is a fruit of having the Holy Spirit. This is why Abraham and real Christians believe.
 
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Judges1318

Banned
#97
Nov 16, 2019
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#97
Grandpa said:
It would be impossible, if a truly saved person who had been to Christ and all that entails, if they became un-saved for them to then become re-saved.
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And that is exactly what the passage says.
And the reason they can't be brought back to repentance and saved is, not because it's impossible to fall away (the passage says nothing about that), but because "they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace" - Hebrews 6:4-6.

You see, God is preventing them from coming back (for the reason stated), not preventing them from falling away. The thing that is impossible is for the fallen person to come back to Christ. The passage plainly says that. But I suppose if one is bent on defending a certain belief it can't read it for what it actually says.
 
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Judges1318

Banned
#98
Nov 16, 2019
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#98
Dave-L said:
If believing is a condition for salvation, the gospel becomes law and grace becomes works. Faith is a fruit of having the Holy Spirit. This is why Abraham and real Christians believe.
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Yes, believing is a condition for justification/ salvation.
I can't believe there are people in the church saying it is not.
And believing the promise of God is hardly equivalent to keeping the law.
It amazes me that we have to have these kinds of discussions now in the church.
Your argument is so absurd it's hardly worth talking about.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#99
Nov 16, 2019
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#99
Dave-L said:
Faith is a fruit of having the Holy Spirit. This is why Abraham and real Christians believe.
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King Saul shows us how you only need be visited by the Holy Spirit to have the benefit of the Holy Spirit. Not in actually partaking of the Spirit in salvation, of course. But in the matter of seeing the unseen.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#100
Jan 17, 2020
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#100
Judges1318 said:
King Saul shows us how you only need be visited by the Holy Spirit to have the benefit of the Holy Spirit. Not in actually partaking of the Spirit in salvation, of course. But in the matter of seeing the unseen.
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Why would the Spirit taunt someone not meant for salvation? Why do people believe today? The greedy believe the prosperity gospel. The goof-ups believe looking for an escape from the mess they created. Many believed after seeing miracles in the first half of the first century. But what is true faith? It's a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must already have by grace, that makes you believe as a result of experiencing Christ in your heart.
 
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