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The Jewish leaders mishandled the intent of the law(Jeremiah8:8) The law never saved anyone, for no one was ever righteous under it (Psalms 143:2)
King David was a man after God's own heart, he did not trust in obedience to the law to attain Heaven. He said:
I trust in God's unfailing love forever and ever Psalm 52:8
David knew his bottom line before God. And God's unfailing love is shown to us under the new covenant by Christ dying for our sins at Calvary. But as so many of those under the old covenant relied on a righteousness of their own to attain Heaven under the law, so do many today in effect believe the same thing. For if Heaven hinges on obedience to the law, you are living under a righteousness before God of obedience to the law
I can only repeat, ye MUST be born again, the safety valve if you like of grace
BTW
I LOVED YOUR PRECEEDING POST. whether or not I agree entirely with it, it shows a heart that truly loves God
K
keeth
Guest
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
........................................................ 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Those on both sides of this issue cannot be right. Some one is lying. Whoever it is, will not enter heaven, but will be cast into the lake of fire. Let us all pray to God that we are not that some one. It most certainly is not worth it, just to win an argument.
........................................................ 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Those on both sides of this issue cannot be right. Some one is lying. Whoever it is, will not enter heaven, but will be cast into the lake of fire. Let us all pray to God that we are not that some one. It most certainly is not worth it, just to win an argument.
S
Sophia
Guest
I think both sides can be right, because there is Grace and freedom in Christ.
What is wrong is when we begin to view our side as the only way... because that really does bring us into legalism.
It says in the Word to not get too caught up in arguments over Sabbaths. I know the term was referring to the Feasts, but I see the principle applying to the High Sabbath as well.
The truly born again Christian has the law God requires them to keep in their most inward parts. They are under no illusion they can perfectly obey it, for they have nowhere to hide from that truth, the law is written on their mind and placed on their heart. They love God and want to take up their cross and follow Christ. If they love God above all else, what of their imperfections (sin) that is the true barrier to God. They sink to their knees in heartfelt gratitude and praise God for the fact His Son died for them a worthless sinner. The closer they come to God in their heart, the more they see their own wretchedness before him. But the more they look to their Saviour and trust the one who bled and died for them, the more they rely on his sacrifice for them, not on obedience to the law, the more they refuse to trust in themselves for change, but more on the Holy Spirit who sanctifies them the more of a holier life they will live. Then from the bottom of their heart they give God all the glory for what He has achieved in their life through faith in Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. That is the progress God wants. I rarely read any words of people stressing obedience to the law to attain Heaven where God is given all the glory. How can you give God all the glory if you stress what YOU must do to attain Heaven?
I'm not sure that everyone who keeps a Saturday Sabbath is doing so to maintain salvation or earn Heaven.
It is usually done out of respect for the One who saved them, in an attempt to please Him.
It is good to try to please God. It is bad to think that your works actually can appease His requirement. The two are not the same.
Out of appreciation for what He has done, we strive to live in the Way He has set as righteous. And this striving is called faithfulness. Displaying our faith through good works, and bearing good fruit.
If some one judges you, and says you are a disobedient child for not taking a Saturday Sabbath, you do not need to fear them, but do be sure that you really do have a clear conscience about the issue.
Absoutely, I have no problem with anyone wanting to observe a Saturday Sabbath, or avoid ''unclean foods'' but it is not for them to insist every other Christian must take that view, that contradicts scripture
Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. Rom 14:1
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. verse 5
I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. verse 14
[SUP] [/SUP]Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. verse 20
So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God verse22
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. verse 5
I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. verse 14
[SUP] [/SUP]Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. verse 20
So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God verse22
I like your references to the Old Testament here.
Many people do not realize that the law given to Israel was not legalistic but rather they made it legalistic. If they had faith they would have been able to keep it in the power of God.
I believe this is true of the New Covenant also. As it was given Abraham by promise so it is to us and the law is not against the promise as it is written:
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
The problem with the law was not the law itself but the people as it is written:
Heb_8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
However the law also changed as now the true sacrifice was made in Jesus thus no need for animal sacrifices.
But Christ rose again and became our High priest thus no need for priests anymore.
And Jesus ascended to heaven thus no need for an earthly temple but now a heavenly one of which the earthly was a copy.
But the 10 commandments have no change, they are still Gods law they are good and just and Holy, Christ did not come to destroy the law but to destroy the works of the Devil.
The Devils works are sin and sin is breaking the law. Thus Christ came to stop law breaking.
I only don't obey those parts of the law that are clearly spoken of in the word as shadows of Christ. Both in the new and the Old testament they are spoken of. The animal sacrifices were never to keep going, they always were going to stop at Jesus. Same with the temple and the priests.
But they all existed because of sin. If there were no sin then there would be no sacrifice needed, no priest needed to intercede for us, no temple to deal with sin.
The very fact then that the law/tutor taught these things tells us something does it not?
There is still a temple in heaven which the earthly was a copy of.
There is still a sacrifice for our sins even Jesus who died once for all.
There is still a high priest interceding for us even Jesus our high priest.
IF the Law which points out sin is no longer then there is no need for a priest or temple.
If the law/10 commandments are no more the sin is ok.
no rather Jesus changes us, not the moral law. for love cannot change to accept hate/sin. thus Hate which is in our hearts must change, thus born again, new heart.
And that change brings us into obedience because love transforms us back into His Image.
The Sabbath is a weekly Reminder on the 7th day, that He who originally made the heavens and the earth and made man in His own image. Is able to recreate Man through redemption in Christ back into His Image.
Jesus is the full Image and He kept the 10 commandments. because they all 10 are love.
The 7th day is not just another day, it is different, it is blessed by our God, set apart from every other day as Holy. A gift to man from our creator. that Same God who made all things has Promised through Jesus to make us new, to give us a new heart.
There is no day greater, no other day holds such meaning as the 7th, it is not transferable because it has the very blessing of God. God blessed no other day. No Day hold such meaning or blessing.
It reveals the character of our God. His mercy His love His generosity have always been even before sin and the Sabbath declares it clearly.
For When Adam and Eve rested on that first 7th day with their creator, they did not rest in their great work but in the work of the creator. For God made them a whole world and filled it with wonder and delight. Then as a gift He gave them authority over it. He gave them His image they did not get it on their own by their own works but it was given freely.
This is the nature of our God, there is no other who is like our God, so loving and giving.
And not only that but it was on this same Sabbath that our Lord Jesus who created the heavens and the earth once more rested from His work of making a way that we by faith could once again be in His image by His works for us in His life and on the cross, and in us and through us.
No other Day has this much meaning in it. No wonder Isaiah said we will come one Sabbath to another. For every 7th day for eternity shall we gather together to remember Who our God is, His love, His care, His mercy, His great power. not that we will not remember these things on other days also. but the 7th, Glory to God a Gift of Remembrance.
And never again shall sin rise up because the Sabbath will be a perpetual reminder of He who made all things and Redeemed that which was lost.
This Day is a precious gift to Man from the Lord of the Sabbath. To delight in the 7th day Sabbath is to delight in the Lord of That Sabbath, to delight in who He is. It is a wonderful anniversary every week of our marriage through the blood of the great awesome God of all.
Out of all the 10 commandments the Sabbath most fully reveals who God is. The Sabbath destroys pride. It uplifts the Heart to God. Thank you Lord for the Sabbath.
If they had faith they would have been able to keep it (the law) in the power of God
Would you also include in this the command not to covet? (lust, desire what should not be desired? Jesus upped the law so to speak as you know. If you only look at a woman with lust in your eye.................
Do you believe it is possible for man to obey the whole law today? If a person does not love in their heart those who malign them and hate them can they be saved? For if they do not they are not obeying Christ's literal command.
If we only lend to our friends, those we expect to receive something back from we are no different from the heathen. Can we be saved if we refuse to lend/give to our enemies, those who hate us without expecting anything back?
I don't mean you, but when there is insistence the law must be obeyed, what about all of Christ's teaching in the beatitudes, must that all be obeyed to inherit eternal life? I have never met any Christian of any denomination(including sda) who obeys all of Christ's literal commands. I f we say the who law, and Christ's teachings must be obeyed to inherit eternal life, does that mean ALL COMMANDS? or just some
Would you also include in this the command not to covet? (lust, desire what should not be desired? Jesus upped the law so to speak as you know. If you only look at a woman with lust in your eye.................
Do you believe it is possible for man to obey the whole law today? If a person does not love in their heart those who malign them and hate them can they be saved? For if they do not they are not obeying Christ's literal command.
If we only lend to our friends, those we expect to receive something back from we are no different from the heathen. Can we be saved if we refuse to lend/give to our enemies, those who hate us without expecting anything back?
I don't mean you, but when there is insistence the law must be obeyed, what about all of Christ's teaching in the beatitudes, must that all be obeyed to inherit eternal life? I have never met any Christian of any denomination(including sda) who obeys all of Christ's literal commands. I f we say the who law, and Christ's teachings must be obeyed to inherit eternal life, does that mean ALL COMMANDS? or just some
yes, weird, and even more sorrow for someone who never met anyone who was saved(or if they did they didn't know it).
that 'explains' a lot though.... we can pray that you meet someone soon who is saved.... if God allows.
that 'explains' a lot though.... we can pray that you meet someone soon who is saved.... if God allows.
I can nly imagine you are professing to obey all of Christ's teaching. Yet in this debate you have shown otherwise, strange
What is wrong is when one begins to believe that there is only one side. the Law is the definition of right and wrong. It is also the instruction for loving.
We have all sinned and transgressed the Law and Grace is the unearned, undeserved forgiveness that God has provided for us by the death of His Son in our stead.
We need the Law to show us sin and we need Grace to forgive our sin.
you get what you seek - in your case, like all roman catholics who trust man, you get to benefit from what their idols are able to provide you. as long as you trust that, that's what you have and no more.
the ekklesia who are immersed in yahshua have always obeyed all of torah, all that yahweh says, that's what yahshua taught and that's what we do because we are his children and he protects us from the evil one. yahweh also made provision for us in case we sin a sin that is not unto death (like heresy) - we watch one another exactly like his word says to, to guard against any deception of sin..... cathlocism heresy, in contrast, encourages one another to keep on sinning, or didn't you notice ?
you might see that one day as it is clearly stated in scripture, if yahweh permits and if he choses to show mercy instead of hardening your heart.
(re 894 re his heresy)
the ekklesia who are immersed in yahshua have always obeyed all of torah, all that yahweh says, that's what yahshua taught and that's what we do because we are his children and he protects us from the evil one. yahweh also made provision for us in case we sin a sin that is not unto death (like heresy) - we watch one another exactly like his word says to, to guard against any deception of sin..... cathlocism heresy, in contrast, encourages one another to keep on sinning, or didn't you notice ?
you might see that one day as it is clearly stated in scripture, if yahweh permits and if he choses to show mercy instead of hardening your heart.
(re 894 re his heresy)
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I completely understand that salvation is not a result of Law keeping but then there is the flip side...
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
When we keep the Commandments, we are doing the things that are pleasing in God's sight.
Really? We just read what the Apostle John said that keeping the Commandments is pleasing in God's sight...
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
What is righteousness?
Deu 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
God tells us that His Commandments are righteousness.
Quite frankly, you are completely misquoting Col 2:16-17...
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
It does not say to let no one judge you for NOT observing the Sabbath, it says don't let anyone judge you for OBSERVING the Sabbath.
It is called magnifying the Law...
Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
So how is it that if the Law is magnified, or as you put it, "Jesus upped the law so to speak as you know", then you suppose that means that one does not have to obey it?
It means ALL OF THEM, Christ said this...
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
We must obey from the heart. None of us obeys perfectly and that is the need for Grace to forgive our short comings, our failings and our sins. Grace is not the doing away with the Law, it is the forgiveness for our failing to keep it perfectly.
When we sin, we have this wonderful High Priest we can go to...
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
and a child of god who is trained by his heavenly father to do what is right and to live according to his gracious word
does what is right totally out of joyous life and rejoicing in union with yahshua as god's children,
and since living/abiding in union with yahshua, and since yahshua always does as father says,
it is delightful sonship, not legal, to honor the 7th day along with him and in him and by him as he does and always has.
does what is right totally out of joyous life and rejoicing in union with yahshua as god's children,
and since living/abiding in union with yahshua, and since yahshua always does as father says,
it is delightful sonship, not legal, to honor the 7th day along with him and in him and by him as he does and always has.