Watching "Un-christian Porn" - protect your heart

[PeterJens]

Please direct me to the thread Peter Jens.

I cannot because it takes too much time and is actually irrelevant. The point is this is where the discussion got and why and what my response was. I am not sure what they currently actually believe as they go quiet or repeat their ideas I am a self righteous legalist. One member calls this slander, I just call it stupidity.

I did record grace8 statement that triggered my thinking, where he took the universalist line.
The problem is a lot of mirage faith or ideas occur where people put a few verses together, get an idea and say God has given them the inspiration etc.

And this all started because I wondered what Hyper-grace was and if anyone believed it. Very educational.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Now I put forward that good deeds were good deeds by themselves, no matter who did them.
They said no, they were evil.

In the end I realised this theology was actually universalism, the ultimate extension of God saves without the intervention of man.

Now they got carried away, maybe in their argument. At the end, though they never admitted it, they stopped this idea of people go to hell because of good deeds done outside Christ.

The idea that good deeds done by our free will are evil is the influence of Augustinian gnosticism. The gnostics believed that the material world was so corrupt, it was impossible for a fleshly body to do any good at all. Augustinian gnosticism modified this a bit to claim that man's nature is so depraved, it is impossible through free will to do anything good.

 

[Goodnewsman]

Reminds me of President Bill Clinton trying to argue the definition of "IS" LOL. he never was good at english

Word Origin and History for if Expand conj.

Old English gif (initial g- in Old English pronounced with a sound close to Modern English -y-), from Proto-Germanic *ja-ba (cf. Old Saxon, Old Norse ef, Old Frisian gef, Old High German ibu, German ob, Dutch of "if, whether"), from PIE pronomial stem *i- [Watkins]; Klein, OED suggest probably originally from an oblique case of a noun meaning "doubt" (cf. Old High German iba "condition, stipulation, doubt," Old Norse if "doubt, hesitation," Swedish jäf "exception, challenge"). As a noun from 1510s.

just thought you might want the origin and history of the word "IF" as well.

what did the word "if" mean in my post that you responded to?

"IF" is not held to just those options. There are conditional clauses that are first class conditions in His word.

It means........."if" and it IS.

Man, that grass is tall, If it is that tall it should be mowed. If...and it is that tall.

 

[PeterJens]

I haven't seen Ben or Grace 777 say that. It was me.

Universalism is for the birds. Good luck with that one. Hell didn't need to be expanded because everyone is saved.

One question. Did Christ pay for the sins of the whole world? Yes or no.

If yes, then people will not be judged for their sins.

If no, then we deny a whole slew of scripture.

New American Standard Bible
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

In the end, unbelievers are judged according to their OWN righteousness. They didn't have the PERFECT righteousness of Christ.


Deal with this verse Peter, please.

New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Not sins. Deeds....works.

Grace8 - You cannot hold to this theology. If grace7x77 likes what you are saying he agrees with your point.

Jesus's death is only applied to those who believed.

Jesus on the cross is the same as the bronze serpent held up in the desert, if a snake bit you and you saw the serpent, you were healed. So sins forgiveness is in seeing Christ through faith.

Now this is open to anyone to do, but it is conditional on the act of faith.

Now if you want to take the verses to be a universalist it is your choice. Also separating deeds from sins is stupid reasoning. Sins are deeds but not all deeds are sins.

The strange thing with judgement, is punishment is metered out based on what people have done, or it is a blanket term for proof of guilt and therefore punishment by being destroyed in the lake of fire.

By the way grace8 thanks for proving my point.

 

[Goodnewsman]

yelp, the worst kind of pride is a man that is proud that he's not proud

I don't believe that is necessarily true. When I am arrogant it is intentional. I'm not that way all the time, and doing it purposely I know when the change happens.
And when I'm humble, I make it a point to make sure everyone knows, so obviously I'm aware of that too.

 

[Gr8grace]

Grace8 - You cannot hold to this theology. If grace7x77 likes what you are saying he agrees with your point.

Jesus's death is only applied to those who believed.

Jesus on the cross is the same as the bronze serpent held up in the desert, if a snake bit you and you saw the serpent, you were healed. So sins forgiveness is in seeing Christ through faith.

Now this is open to anyone to do, but it is conditional on the act of faith.

Now if you want to take the verses to be a universalist it is your choice. Also separating deeds from sins is stupid reasoning. Sins are deeds but not all deeds are sins.

The strange thing with judgement, is punishment is metered out based on what people have done, or it is a blanket term for proof of guilt and therefore punishment by being destroyed in the lake of fire.

By the way grace8 thanks for proving my point.

SO you don't believe Jesus Christ paid for the sins of the whole world?

Can you point me to a verse that says he only paid for some, or a few, or just for us?

 

[Gr8grace]

Reminds me of President Bill Clinton trying to argue the definition of "IS" LOL. he never was good at english

Word Origin and History for if Expand conj.

Old English gif (initial g- in Old English pronounced with a sound close to Modern English -y-), from Proto-Germanic *ja-ba (cf. Old Saxon, Old Norse ef, Old Frisian gef, Old High German ibu, German ob, Dutch of "if, whether"), from PIE pronomial stem *i- [Watkins]; Klein, OED suggest probably originally from an oblique case of a noun meaning "doubt" (cf. Old High German iba "condition, stipulation, doubt," Old Norse if "doubt, hesitation," Swedish jäf "exception, challenge"). As a noun from 1510s.

just thought you might want the origin and history of the word "IF" as well.

what did the word "if" mean in my post that you responded to?

That's why we go to the Greek. "if" is not the actual word.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It would take too much time to give me the title of the thread...?
And it isn't irrelevant. You say they have all said the good Samaritan was doing an evil deed andi would like to read where they all said it because I would rather see with my own eyes than to go on the witness of one man.

 

[Grace777x70]

There is a difference in the greek..depending on the structure used.......some "if" is determined as fulfilled.

We use it in English too... for example

If you went to the bank ( which means you did go - determined as being fulfilled.) then give me my $100.

Here is one in scriptures...

Col 3:1
If then ye were raised together with Christ ei oun sunēgerthēte tōi Christōi.....Condition of the first class, assumed as true, like that in Col. 2:20 and the other half of the picture of baptism in Col. 2:12

A. T. Robertson Greek Scholar
Word Pictures in the New Testament.

 

[Goodnewsman]

since I speak English "IF" was the actual word. This particular word "IF" came from my post were I was quoted as saying:

"IF the bible you read tells you that you can watch porn, then throw it away with the rest of the trash"

so "if" was the actual word.

so is "if" a word or not?

That's why we go to the Greek. "if" is not the actual word.

 

[Depleted]

The strangest thing just struck me. When a man is arrogant, he can't see it and when a man is humble he can't see it. Only others can see these things ...

I know when I'm arrogant often enough. I can't tell you with humble. Not enough experience. lol

 

[coby]

SO you don't believe Jesus Christ paid for the sins of the whole world?

Can you point me to a verse that says he only paid for some, or a few, or just for us?

He paid for the sins of the whole world but unfortunately you can reject His offer and then there's no offer left. You can only convert in this life. If someone doesn't get a new sinless nature here on earth to be able to be with Him, how can that change after death?

 

[Goodnewsman]

This reminds me of a story:
Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson decide to go on a camping trip. After dinner, they lay down for the night, and go to sleep. Some hours later, Holmes awoke and nudged his faithful friend.

"Watson, look up at the sky and tell me what you see."
Watson replied, "I see millions of stars."
"What does that tell you?"
Watson pondered for a minute.
"Astronomically, it tells me that there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets."
"Astrologically, I observe that Saturn is in Leo."
"Horologically, I deduce that the time is approximately a quarter past three."
"Theologically, I can see that God is all powerful and that we are small and insignificant."
"Meteorologically, I suspect that we will have a beautiful day tomorrow."
"What does it tell you, Holmes?"
Holmes was silent for a minute, then spoke: "Watson, you idiot. Someone has stolen our tent!"

why are we answering question that was never asked, and avoiding the main problem? LOL

There is a difference in the greek..depending on the structure used.......some "if" is determined as fulfilled.

We use it in English too... for example

If you went to the bank ( which means you did go - determined as being fulfilled.) then give me my $100.

Here is one in scriptures...

Col 3:1
If then ye were raised together with Christ ei oun sunēgerthēte tōi Christōi.....Condition of the first class, assumed as true, like that in Col. 2:20 and the other half of the picture of baptism in Col. 2:12

A. T. Robertson Greek Scholar
Word Pictures in the New Testament.

 

[PeterJens]

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:2

The Mishnah states, "To a man who says, 'I will sin and repent, I will sin and repent', Yom Kippur brings no atonement. For sins against God, Yom Kippur brings atonement. For sins against one's fellow man, Yom Kippur brings no atonement until he has become reconciled with the fellow man he wronged. Mishnah Yoma 8:9
According to Maimonides, in order to achieve true repentance the sinner must abandon his sin, remove it from his thoughts, and resolve in his heart never to repeat it, as it is said, “Let the wicked forsake his way and the man of iniquity his thoughts" (Isaiah 55:7). Likewise, he must regret the past, as it is said, "Surely after I turned I repented" (Jeremiah 31:18). He must also call Him who knows all secrets to witness that he will never return to this sin again.

In jewish theology, the atoning sacrifice is only part of the repentance process.
You cannot therefore talk about atonement with repentance, as the sacrifice only works for the person involved in the atoning. Now if the world wishes to seek atonement, Paul is saying they can achieve it.

The problem is taking a deeply religious term and applying it as if it does not come from this whole situation and conditions attached. You are talking about Paul, a pharisee who knew these implications from a child.

This is why your reading in to such passages is just absurd. None of the apostles equally would give it a second thought with their jewish background.

 

[PeterJens]

It would take too much time to give me the title of the thread...?
And it isn't irrelevant. You say they have all said the good Samaritan was doing an evil deed andi would like to read where they all said it because I would rather see with my own eyes than to go on the witness of one man.

The argument went, good deeds done outside christ are evil. That is what they said.

I said Jesus called the deeds of the good samaritan were good, irrespective of faith. They gave no response.
Now they are here, ask them. Do they believe the good samaritan did something good or evil?

If they refuse to answer that is the answer, they believe it was evil but refuse to contradict Jesus because that would be blasphemy.

 

[Gr8grace]

He paid for the sins of the whole world but unfortunately you can reject His offer and then there's no offer left. You can only convert in this life. If someone doesn't get a new sinless nature here on earth to be able to be with Him, how can that change after death?

Then he really didn't pay for the sins of the whole world? It should go more like this..........

Jesus Christ paid for the sins of those who didn't reject His offer? Its not really the whole world?

We are so sin focused, and sin has been judged...........but our own righteousness and our own good(evil) has not been judged.

This is why satan has us all focused on sin. It takes Glory away from the Lord Jesus Christ(He paid it ALL) and religion and our own righteousness(creature good) is actually what is judged and condemned in the end.

Religion is satans ace trump, not sin.............Christ paid for ALL sin.

 

[Grace777x70]

LOL..i heard a guy one time say naming the title of his book.." How to be humble....and how I achieved it "...say what?...

I know when I'm arrogant often enough. I can't tell you with humble. Not enough experience. lol

 

[Grace777x70]

There is a big difference between a "Universal atonement" in Christ's work and Universalism.....some people do reject what is already done for them by our Lord..sad...but true according to the word as far as I can see....it's hard to imagine people rejecting the love of God.

..that's why we need to preach the gospel of the grace of Christ...not a religion...a lot of people in the world reject our religion and I don't blame them either...but the Lord will reveal Himself to them..His true self that died just for them!

He paid for the sins of the whole world but unfortunately you can reject His offer and then there's no offer left. You can only convert in this life. If someone doesn't get a new sinless nature here on earth to be able to be with Him, how can that change after death?

 

[PeterJens]

Then he really didn't pay for the sins of the whole world? It should go more like this..........

Jesus Christ paid for the sins of those who didn't reject His offer? Its not really the whole world?

We are so sin focused, and sin has been judged...........but our own righteousness and our own good(evil) has not been judged.

This is why satan has us all focused on sin. It takes Glory away from the Lord Jesus Christ(He paid it ALL) and religion and our own righteousness(creature good) is actually what is judged and condemned in the end.

Religion is satans ace trump, not sin.............Christ paid for ALL sin.

That is universalism. As I stated before, because in this theology everything is sin if not done in Christ, there is no punishment for sin so no lake of fire.

Now logically this contradicts all of scripture therefore must be wrong in interpretation, therefore Paul could not mean Christ dying for all sin and thereby eliminating it is heresy.

 

[PennEd]

Then he really didn't pay for the sins of the whole world? It should go more like this..........

Jesus Christ paid for the sins of those who didn't reject His offer? Its not really the whole world?

We are so sin focused, and sin has been judged...........but our own righteousness and our own good(evil) has not been judged.

This is why satan has us all focused on sin. It takes Glory away from the Lord Jesus Christ(He paid it ALL) and religion and our own righteousness(creature good) is actually what is judged and condemned in the end.

Religion is satans ace trump, not sin.............Christ paid for ALL sin.

I'm confused. Is THIS wht the definition is of Hyper grace? That EVERYONE will be saved, whether they believe in Jesus or not, whether, they are a Muslim, an atheist, a bhuddist, etc..?