We are not saved by Grace/Faith alone, and I can prove it.

[Tintin]

Ah, but one who has repented and put their faith in Christ still sins. Paul devoted a fair section of Rom 7 to this...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

If all is accomplished by Christ and we do nothing, why was Paul even concerned about his short comings? Why did he make this dramatic statement?

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

No, no. I agree with you. Let me put it this way. For example: a Christian may have homosexual tendencies but may not act on them. A heterosexual Christian may have lustful thoughts but may not act on them. We struggle with sin, yes. But we repent (turn to God) and move forward by allowing the Holy Spirit to make us more like Christ.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

because paul understood a basic fact.

God does not save us from ourselves. he saves us from eternal condemnation. The flesh is left behind, we still (through the flesh) sin everytime we do ANYTHING which is based on self, and not God (the true defenition of sin).

How did paul finish that statement?

[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

what did he thank God for? that he was a wretched man?? NO!, That he was delivered (saved0 from death. as he said in another passage

even though the body is DEAD because of sin, the spirit is ALIVE because of righteousness (gods not ours)

So he's fighting and ever lasting battle? Exactly. See you agree with me but dont realize it. My point is the whole grace and faith alone teaching is saying that works mean nothing. But fighting your urges is works itself. But I guess you mean good deeds, just refer to the Matthew quote I said earlier. It's that simple.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

You just contradicted yourself. John 3:16 is a good start.

No I didn't... if you read the Matthew quote, it correlates. You can say that through John 3:16 that nobody goes to hell, but that isn't true. It just means that people have a chance to make it to Heaven because we all aren't good enough.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

First I would like to say I did prove my point, and I will show you how by critiquing your responce.

Im going to work backwards up because its easier. Accursed = damnation. It warns about if someone teaches you a false doctrine, whether it be an angel or human, to not believe it because they will be accursed for doing it. Its very easily explained in english, read the verse.

The definition you gave for grace is exactly the same thing I used.

Exactly sin = hell, but the whole teachings of this is saying that regardless you will go to Heaven. Repentance wouldn't be necessary if Grace and Faith alone got you into heaven. Regardless, like I said, if you do Bad works (sins) you go to hell, so then Good works will help you get into Heaven. Why does the book of life exist if that does not count?

ok your wrong, One CAN NOT have faith unless they repent. your religious form of the word repent is in error. we do not repent of every sin, thats impossible. we repent and admit we are sinners, that sin is sin, and that the only way we can be saved is by God. not self 9which goes against ALL human nature)

First I'd like to point the irony out of you saying that I have no proof, yet don't cite a Bible quote for your comment. Secondly, I know that quote so it isn't necessary, just pointing out the hypocrisy. As for true faith, Saul had true faith in God. He was annointed by God and had the spirit of God within him yet he fell and did bad deeds. Therefore, even though he had faith in God and did what God wanted, he turned away and did not what God wanted. Want a NT example? I forget the story but I can find it if you are willing to wait while I watch a 20 minute pastor session or I can link you the video where he is debunking Calvinism.

1. I am not a calvanist. so get your pre-concieved ideas out of your head.
2. I did not have to site the bible. Your defenitions were in error. and I see you are not even trying to back your proof up here. you do not take english defenitions of words. THE bible was written in greek. I gave you the true defenition, you have a secular defenition.
3. i used james to prove that faith and belief are not the same.

Faith exactly is what you said, and what I said. To a degree I can see the difference from what you mean. However, like I said there are times when many men trusted in God but still failed because of their own faults. This means that it takes more then just faith or grace to enter Heaven. Of course it is necessary, but it takes more thenthat. The people in Matthew 25:31-46 had faith in God, yet they didnt do the deeds Jesus required. Matthew 25:31-46 debunks your whole claim, sorry.

I assume that the scholars who studied the languages for a living back in 1600 had a much better understanding and chose words correctly to make the proper meaning, so I used an english translation. Im sorry, I do not know the greek or have a greek translator/dictionary.

lol.. Here is your problem.

1. You think you, as a man can ever straighten out your life to appease a wrathful God.
2. You think any work you do would make you worthy for the GIFT God is offering you (typical human nature)
3. You do not understand your true status and your true sinful nature, for if you did., you would realise no amount of work you could ever do would make up for the sins you have already commited, let alone will commit from now until the day you die.
4. The penalty of sin is death. NOTHING short of death (redemption) can free you from that penalty.

stop listening to men, and listen to God.

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but by HIS MERCY, (grace) HE SAVED US, by the washing and renewal of the HS.

Go ahead, add your work, be like the pharisees. When God says depart for I never knew you. Don;t blame anyone else, and the men you are placing YOUR FAITH in will not be able to help you.

 

[Tintin]

So, if we follow Christ and we read this...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

How about explaining this seeming dichotomy.

The only way a person can live forever in God's presence is to keep the commandments. Yes. But since no human is capable of being righteous on their own, they must have faith in Christ and trust in his suffering, death and resurrection. The whole point is we can't find salvation on our own strength, we need Christ to be our righteousness!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So he's fighting and ever lasting battle? Exactly. See you agree with me but dont realize it. My point is the whole grace and faith alone teaching is saying that works mean nothing. But fighting your urges is works itself. But I guess you mean good deeds, just refer to the Matthew quote I said earlier. It's that simple.

lol. He is fighting a battle which will last until he dies.

But he is thanking God. Because God has saved him forever.

Why else would he thank God> If I have to work so very hard to stop sin to get to heaven, Thats not good news. And I would never thank God. For what? I have NOTHING. Just a fear, and fleshly trust in myself that I MAY be good enough to enter heaven.

That is not the gospel. That is no more good news than the pharisee doctrine of law (which by the way, Paul wrot Galations to fight.)

 

[Tintin]

No I didn't... if you read the Matthew quote, it correlates. You can say that through John 3:16 that nobody goes to hell, but that isn't true. It just means that people have a chance to make it to Heaven because we all aren't good enough.

Oh my goodness me. *Shakes head*

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The only way a person can live forever in God's presence is to keep the commandments. Yes. But since no human is capable of being righteous on their own, they must have faith in Christ and trust in his suffering, death and resurrection. The whole point is we can't find salvation on our own strength, we need Christ to be our righteousness!

Yes!

A person who is trying to find salvation on his own strength has FAITH in self. Not Christ.

What a sad hope. Who could hope in self for anything? Let alone being good enough to enter heaven..

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Oh my goodness me. *Shakes head*

-sigh- it says so in the Bible

 

[Spokenpassage]

No I didn't... if you read the Matthew quote, it correlates. You can say that through John 3:16 that nobody goes to hell, but that isn't true. It just means that people have a chance to make it to Heaven because we all aren't good enough.

I don't see anywhere in the verse that says, "whoever believes in Him has a chance in not perishing." No it says, "whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

This must mean it's beyond mere belief, because a lot of people have believed in His existence yet denied His name. This means that the "believe in Him" is actually deeper than just merely believing He existed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh my goodness me. *Shakes head*

I wonder if he is another islamic in here trying to debunk christianity, They believe the same thing.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Too many replies too fast, so let me just recap on everything.

If any of you can read Matthew 25:36-41 and claim that those things Jesus require are not works, then can you explain that to me? Because that quote is suitable enough to say that works are required. Im trying to do homework and didnt think this would get so way out of hand -_- I thought it was pretty obvious but it seems I have to debate without having any sleep -_-

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Too many replies too fast, so let me just recap on everything.

If any of you can read Matthew 25:36-41 and claim that those things Jesus require are not works, then can you explain that to me? Because that quote is suitable enough to say that works are required. Im trying to do homework and didnt think this would get so way out of hand -_- I thought it was pretty obvious but it seems I have to debate without having any sleep -_-

Sorry Matthew 25:31-41

 

[eternally-gratefull]

-sigh- it says so in the Bible

You must have a different bible than we have.

Our Bible says He who began a good work in you WILL COMPLETE it until the day of Christ.

God is not asking us to complete ourselves. he promises HE WILL COMPLETE US.

 

[tarzan]

Faith has more to do with loyalty to God than trust in "an idea". What the Op teaches is based on faulty logic and a lack of Biblical understanding. Go read how the Lord has said through Isaiah that we should turn away our feet from our works and enter into the rest from our works. That rest we cannot do, but the Prince of Peace has! Jesus also instructed the disciples that John the Baptist was the greatest man to live who was born of a woman, and yet the least in the Kingdom of Heaven must be greater than John! And He said that of a truth it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, to which the disciples marveled and said How is it possible for any man to be saved? and Jesus responded With men this is impossible, but with God this is possible. And you say those that perform works are true Christians and yet they go to hell. You just witnessed against yourself. It is they had not the faith! Jesus said repeatedly, Oh you faithless generation, how long will I have to suffer you? And see how we are told that though we give up all things and have not charity, we are nothing! Therefore to give to the poor and widow alone is not charity. For many will do those works to boast and to use to condemn those who they judged with their eyes as workless. These are the ones who are judged, that took it upon themselves to perform good for their own righteousness but when the Spirit guided each party into a situation, the worker realized it not for their blindness on account of their assurance in their own works. Therein you find the Pharisee who for a pretense devours the houses of widows. Now do not convince the children of sin which they have not committed. If you think you are saved by what you do, then see to that rather than wasting your time condemning the conscience.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Too many replies too fast, so let me just recap on everything.

If any of you can read Matthew 25:36-41 and claim that those things Jesus require are not works, then can you explain that to me? Because that quote is suitable enough to say that works are required. Im trying to do homework and didnt think this would get so way out of hand -_- I thought it was pretty obvious but it seems I have to debate without having any sleep -_-

Matt 25: 36-41 is speaking to people like you. Who are doing those good works to try to get to heaven.

Jesus said clearly. I NEVER KNEW YOU.

Thus your wishy washy salvation of being saved, not saved, saved, not saved saved, not saved.... etc etc etc. Is proven false. If this was true, jesus lied. For he would have known them at one time.

He is speaking to the jewish crowd who wish to add works to their salvation and earn it. He is telling them flat out, If you try to work, You will not get to heaven.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Matt 25: 36-41 is speaking to people like you. Who are doing those good works to try to get to heaven.

Jesus said clearly. I NEVER KNEW YOU.

Thus your wishy washy salvation of being saved, not saved, saved, not saved saved, not saved.... etc etc etc. Is proven false. If this was true, jesus lied. For he would have known them at one time.

He is speaking to the jewish crowd who wish to add works to their salvation and earn it. He is telling them flat out, If you try to work, You will not get to heaven.

Okay, you forget something. Read Mark 16:16-18. It says that only true believers in Christ can cast out demons, etc.

Therefore, they truely believed in Jesus and GOd and had faith, but went to hell. Why? Because they didn't do any good works.

It's that simple. All the people in Matthew 25:31-41 cast out demons, prophesied in God's name, and glorified God and had faith and accepted his grace. But they didn't do any good deeds to people who needed them, so he sent them to hell. Can you not understand that?

 

[john832]

No, no. I agree with you. Let me put it this way. For example: a Christian may have homosexual tendencies but may not act on them. A heterosexual Christian may have lustful thoughts but may not act on them. We struggle with sin, yes. But we repent (turn to God) and move forward by allowing the Holy Spirit to make us more like Christ.

Ah, sorry, I think I misunderstood your previous post. We are in agreement.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay, you forget something. Read Mark 16:16-18. It says that only true believers in Christ can cast out demons, etc.

mk 16 16 - 18 is questionable, it is not even included in the two oldest manuscripts we have. It also says they will drink poison and not die, and be bitten by snakes and not die, yet MANY have died doing these very things. if it smells like a rat it is a rat. ignore it.

Therefore, they truely believed in Jesus and GOd and had faith, but went to hell. Why? Because they didn't do any good works.

what? dude, your not making any sense.. They did not have faith in christ, their faith was in THEIR WORKS, or THEMSELVES, a person who trust christ will trust Christ, NOT HIMSELF.

It's that simple. All the people in Matthew 25:31-41 cast out demons, prophesied in God's name, and glorified God and had faith and accepted his grace. But they didn't do any good deeds to people who needed them, so he sent them to hell. Can you not understand that?

No, they claimed to do those things, Jesus never told them they did. many people claim things which are not real. Satanists claim to cast out demons and prophesy, are they saved?

He said HE NEVER KNEW THEM. Your telling me Jesus lied, and he did know them?? (they were at one time saved and adopted as his children) why would God lie?

 

[Spokenpassage]

Sorry for that previous post about the contradiction.

Anyways, faith and works for salvation is actually earning grace which is impossible, religious, and entirely against what the Word teaches.