Were Nephilim (Gen 6) judged differently by God?
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When Scripture uses 'trios' such as in Jude it signifies a very SERIOUS Statement has been made by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit concerning the Subject being discussed.
In this case it is Judgement upon THREE Groups who rebelled:
Group A.) the Children set free under the Covenant of Blood of Lamb Sacrifice which began First by the LORD to cover Adam and Eve
Group B.) the fallen angels who came to earth to corrupt the human bloodline
Group C.) Sodom & Gomorrah and the nearby cities that corrupted themselves with perverse sexual immorality (TODAY)
In this case it is Judgement upon THREE Groups who rebelled:
Group A.) the Children set free under the Covenant of Blood of Lamb Sacrifice which began First by the LORD to cover Adam and Eve
Group B.) the fallen angels who came to earth to corrupt the human bloodline
Group C.) Sodom & Gomorrah and the nearby cities that corrupted themselves with perverse sexual immorality (TODAY)
Maybe it is the description of that realm they are bound to. It is quite plausible. That this is about all of fallen angels, but not all of the angels is as plausible and probably more likely than your theory that it is about a subset of fallen angels.
You are adding to the statement to say that this a subset of the fallen angels. If someone else reads it as the fallen angels in total they have more reason to think so because by comparing both Jude and 2 Peter we get a little more support that this is about the angels that sinned period. Which would be all the fallen angels.
Now by me mentioning 2 Peter 2:4 wording "if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned " I have added support to the idea that all fallen angels are included. You have to give reasons why you see it as a subset of fallen angels from these two texts. Your reason should be from something in the text not something that is not said in the text.
Otherwise you have not supported your theory. Telling me to pray is not going to support your interpretation. You have to point to the text to show the idea of the subset. To tell people why the scriptures should be understood a certain way you need to be able to articulate it using the text in question. Telling them to pray or not add or take from the scripture does not help them understand the text you are discussing. You need to explain the text and point to the part that suggest that it is a subset of fallen angels but not all the fallen angels that are intended by the author. Using the words in the text not your theory.
I underlined the words in the text that I am saying support the idea that it is all the fallen angels. Saying "the angels who sinned" with no further details would have been understood by the common reader in the first century as the angles that followed Lucifer in rebellion.
Peter just mentions the angels that sinned who were cast into hell.
Jude says "did not keep their own position but abandoned there proper dwelling" or some similar translation depending on the version.
Both describe them as being in chains of darkness kept until the day of judgment.
How many times do you hear demons saying to Jesus "have you come to torment us before the time?" Or "send us into the pigs"
or when an unclean spirit goes out of a man he goes through dry places seeking rest and finding none"
All such scriptures give us a peek at these "chains of darkness that they are restricted to" limitations, boundaries. And they know that they are being reserved for a judgement in the end. They talk about it when Jesus case them out.
Jude
6and the angels who did not keep their own position but abandoned their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deep darkness for the judgment on the great day.
2 Peter 2
4For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but cast them into hell and delivered them in chains of utter darkness to be kept for judgment;
It seems that this theology about demons and fallen angels that Jude and Peter are mentioning is the same that the demons that were cast out talked about. "Have you come to torment us before the time" And something about not wanting to be cast into the deep. The best among us knows little of what these things are all about. We guess and assume and speculate and try to to tie it all together but we are always needing understanding. Stay humble and keep learning.
I hope one of the edifying things that can come out of a discussion like this is that we learn to present our reasons for an interpretation using the text as it is written. That is useful even if we don't agree. We can zero in on the text and that will cause us to become familiar with the text. We can continue to analyze it and over time we might see things we did not notice before.
But if we depart from the text and discussing the text we stop helping people and descend into immature bantering.
Lets keep it mature and on point.
I have yet to hear you give a reason why "Chains of Darkness or Prison" cannot refer to a spiritual realm and the boundaries that satan and fallen angels (if they are demons) are limited to? I know you don't think that is what it means but can you explain why "Chains of deep Darkness" cannot mean the realm they are in?
We can't use "reserved for the day of judgment" as proof that they are not of those fallen angels who are possessing people because they said "have you come to torment us before the time" when Jesus cast them out, so they know that they are reserved for the day of judgment" and therefore this statement does not prove that they are in a place where they cannot influence or possess people.
You are adding to the statement to say that this a subset of the fallen angels. If someone else reads it as the fallen angels in total they have more reason to think so because by comparing both Jude and 2 Peter we get a little more support that this is about the angels that sinned period. Which would be all the fallen angels.
Now by me mentioning 2 Peter 2:4 wording "if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned " I have added support to the idea that all fallen angels are included. You have to give reasons why you see it as a subset of fallen angels from these two texts. Your reason should be from something in the text not something that is not said in the text.
Otherwise you have not supported your theory. Telling me to pray is not going to support your interpretation. You have to point to the text to show the idea of the subset. To tell people why the scriptures should be understood a certain way you need to be able to articulate it using the text in question. Telling them to pray or not add or take from the scripture does not help them understand the text you are discussing. You need to explain the text and point to the part that suggest that it is a subset of fallen angels but not all the fallen angels that are intended by the author. Using the words in the text not your theory.
I underlined the words in the text that I am saying support the idea that it is all the fallen angels. Saying "the angels who sinned" with no further details would have been understood by the common reader in the first century as the angles that followed Lucifer in rebellion.
Peter just mentions the angels that sinned who were cast into hell.
Jude says "did not keep their own position but abandoned there proper dwelling" or some similar translation depending on the version.
Both describe them as being in chains of darkness kept until the day of judgment.
How many times do you hear demons saying to Jesus "have you come to torment us before the time?" Or "send us into the pigs"
or when an unclean spirit goes out of a man he goes through dry places seeking rest and finding none"
All such scriptures give us a peek at these "chains of darkness that they are restricted to" limitations, boundaries. And they know that they are being reserved for a judgement in the end. They talk about it when Jesus case them out.
Jude
6and the angels who did not keep their own position but abandoned their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deep darkness for the judgment on the great day.
2 Peter 2
4For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but cast them into hell and delivered them in chains of utter darkness to be kept for judgment;
It seems that this theology about demons and fallen angels that Jude and Peter are mentioning is the same that the demons that were cast out talked about. "Have you come to torment us before the time" And something about not wanting to be cast into the deep. The best among us knows little of what these things are all about. We guess and assume and speculate and try to to tie it all together but we are always needing understanding. Stay humble and keep learning.
I hope one of the edifying things that can come out of a discussion like this is that we learn to present our reasons for an interpretation using the text as it is written. That is useful even if we don't agree. We can zero in on the text and that will cause us to become familiar with the text. We can continue to analyze it and over time we might see things we did not notice before.
But if we depart from the text and discussing the text we stop helping people and descend into immature bantering.
Lets keep it mature and on point.
I have yet to hear you give a reason why "Chains of Darkness or Prison" cannot refer to a spiritual realm and the boundaries that satan and fallen angels (if they are demons) are limited to? I know you don't think that is what it means but can you explain why "Chains of deep Darkness" cannot mean the realm they are in?
We can't use "reserved for the day of judgment" as proof that they are not of those fallen angels who are possessing people because they said "have you come to torment us before the time" when Jesus cast them out, so they know that they are reserved for the day of judgment" and therefore this statement does not prove that they are in a place where they cannot influence or possess people.
Spot on!
Three Old Testament groups of bad folks mentioned in the Book of Jude:
The angels which kept not their first estate...despised dominion
The Israelites in wildreness.......spoke evil of dignities
And the sodomites...went after strange flesh.
But the men in Jude were doing all three.
Three Old Testament groups of bad folks mentioned in the Book of Jude:
The angels which kept not their first estate...despised dominion
The Israelites in wildreness.......spoke evil of dignities
And the sodomites...went after strange flesh.
But the men in Jude were doing all three.
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YES, do not go down the path of destruction as did:
A.) the Israelites who came out of Egypt under the Blood Covenant of the lamb but abandoned the Covenant and committed sexual immorality and thereby were destroyed
B.) the angels that abandoned there spiritual position and committed sexual sin with human flesh
C.) Sodom & Gomorrah and nearby cities abandoned the God ordained male husband/female wife sexual relationship for = 'anything goes that feels good, the more the merrier' lusting = men with men, women with women, human/animal perversion and orgies.
Now, what did all three groups have in common in that they all received God's wrath/judgment and are mentioned together in one WARNING from God for us to fear???
A.) the Israelites who came out of Egypt under the Blood Covenant of the lamb but abandoned the Covenant and committed sexual immorality and thereby were destroyed
B.) the angels that abandoned there spiritual position and committed sexual sin with human flesh
C.) Sodom & Gomorrah and nearby cities abandoned the God ordained male husband/female wife sexual relationship for = 'anything goes that feels good, the more the merrier' lusting = men with men, women with women, human/animal perversion and orgies.
Now, what did all three groups have in common in that they all received God's wrath/judgment and are mentioned together in one WARNING from God for us to fear???
Yes sexual sins are mentioned and also I see other things that are warned against as I read through 2 Peter and Jude:
2 Peter
9then the Lord knows how to rescuea the godly from trials and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,b 10especially those who follow the polluting desires of the flesh and despise authority.a
Bold, arrogant people! They are not afraid to slander the glorious ones; 11however, angels, who are greater in might and power, do not bring a slanderous charge against them before the Lord.A 12But these people, like irrational animals — creatures of instinct born to be caught and destroyed — slander what they do not understand, and in their destruction they too will be destroyed. 13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. They consider it a pleasure to carouse in broad daylight. They are spots and blemishes, delighting in their deceptionsA while they feast with you. 14They have eyes full of adulterya that never stop looking for sin. They seduce unstable people and have hearts trained in greed. Children under a curse!b 15They have gone astray by abandoning the straight patha and have followed the path of Balaam,b the son of Bosor,A who loved the wages of wickednessc 16but received a rebuke for his lawlessness: A speechless donkey spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.a (That was about them fornicating with the Moabite women) Probably the same as the Error of Cain (sons of God Seths seed marrying Cains daughters)
17These people are springs without water, mists driven by a storm. The gloom of darkness has been reserved for them.a(Oh Look, people in gloom of darkness reserved for judgement not just a subset of fallen angels is it?) 18For by uttering boastful, empty words,a they seduce, with fleshly desires and debauchery, people who have barely escapedA from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption, since people are enslaved to whatever defeats them.a 20For if, having escaped the world’s impurity through the knowledge of the LordA and Savior Jesus Christ,a they are again entangled in these things and defeated, the last state is worse for them than the first.b 21For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousnessa than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandb deliveredc to them.d 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb: A dog returns to its own vomit,a b and, “A washed sow returns to wallowing in the mud.”
Jude
12These people are dangerous reefsA at your love feastsa as they eat with you without reverence. They are shepherds who only look after themselves. They are waterless clouds carried along by winds;b trees in late autumn — fruitless, twice dead and uprooted. 13They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shameful deeds; wandering starsa for whom the blackness of darknessb is reserved forever.c
14It was about these that Enoch,a in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied: “Look! The Lord comes with tens of thousands of his holy onesb 15to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodlya concerning all the ungodly acts that they have done in an ungodly way, and concerning all the harsh things ungodly sinners have said against him.” 16These people are discontented grumblers, living according to their desires;a their mouths utter arrogant words, flatteringb people for their own advantage.
17But you, dear friends, remember what was predicted by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. 18They told you, “In the end timea there will be scoffersb living according to their own ungodly desires.” 19These people create divisions and are worldly,a not having the Spirit.
Exhortation and Benediction
20But you, dear friends, as you build yourselves up in your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,a 21keep yourselves in the love of God,a waiting expectantly for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life. 22Have mercy on those who waver; 23save others by snatching them from the fire;a have mercy on others but with fear,b hatingc even the garmentd defiled by the flesh.
2 Peter
9then the Lord knows how to rescuea the godly from trials and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,b 10especially those who follow the polluting desires of the flesh and despise authority.a
Bold, arrogant people! They are not afraid to slander the glorious ones; 11however, angels, who are greater in might and power, do not bring a slanderous charge against them before the Lord.A 12But these people, like irrational animals — creatures of instinct born to be caught and destroyed — slander what they do not understand, and in their destruction they too will be destroyed. 13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. They consider it a pleasure to carouse in broad daylight. They are spots and blemishes, delighting in their deceptionsA while they feast with you. 14They have eyes full of adulterya that never stop looking for sin. They seduce unstable people and have hearts trained in greed. Children under a curse!b 15They have gone astray by abandoning the straight patha and have followed the path of Balaam,b the son of Bosor,A who loved the wages of wickednessc 16but received a rebuke for his lawlessness: A speechless donkey spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.a (That was about them fornicating with the Moabite women) Probably the same as the Error of Cain (sons of God Seths seed marrying Cains daughters)
17These people are springs without water, mists driven by a storm. The gloom of darkness has been reserved for them.a(Oh Look, people in gloom of darkness reserved for judgement not just a subset of fallen angels is it?) 18For by uttering boastful, empty words,a they seduce, with fleshly desires and debauchery, people who have barely escapedA from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption, since people are enslaved to whatever defeats them.a 20For if, having escaped the world’s impurity through the knowledge of the LordA and Savior Jesus Christ,a they are again entangled in these things and defeated, the last state is worse for them than the first.b 21For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousnessa than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandb deliveredc to them.d 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb: A dog returns to its own vomit,a b and, “A washed sow returns to wallowing in the mud.”
Jude
12These people are dangerous reefsA at your love feastsa as they eat with you without reverence. They are shepherds who only look after themselves. They are waterless clouds carried along by winds;b trees in late autumn — fruitless, twice dead and uprooted. 13They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shameful deeds; wandering starsa for whom the blackness of darknessb is reserved forever.c
14It was about these that Enoch,a in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied: “Look! The Lord comes with tens of thousands of his holy onesb 15to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodlya concerning all the ungodly acts that they have done in an ungodly way, and concerning all the harsh things ungodly sinners have said against him.” 16These people are discontented grumblers, living according to their desires;a their mouths utter arrogant words, flatteringb people for their own advantage.
17But you, dear friends, remember what was predicted by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. 18They told you, “In the end timea there will be scoffersb living according to their own ungodly desires.” 19These people create divisions and are worldly,a not having the Spirit.
Exhortation and Benediction
20But you, dear friends, as you build yourselves up in your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,a 21keep yourselves in the love of God,a waiting expectantly for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life. 22Have mercy on those who waver; 23save others by snatching them from the fire;a have mercy on others but with fear,b hatingc even the garmentd defiled by the flesh.
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That kind of talk always accompanies a bad interpretation of scripture.
If they got locked up what about the rest of the fallen angels. Are they going to be "good" now and not try that same thing? Can fallen angels control their sexual urges? Maybe the women today are not as fair? Did God zap the remaining non locked up bad angels to remove their angel/human compatible genetalia after the first group did their dirty deed? Is this all written about in the book of Enoch 3 and I don't know about it?
If they got locked up what about the rest of the fallen angels. Are they going to be "good" now and not try that same thing? Can fallen angels control their sexual urges? Maybe the women today are not as fair? Did God zap the remaining non locked up bad angels to remove their angel/human compatible genetalia after the first group did their dirty deed? Is this all written about in the book of Enoch 3 and I don't know about it?
The theory about angels mating with women is that they were not all of the fallen angels. Only some of them. And then they got locked up. The others are still influencing people to do evil. That's how they teach about it. Is there another theory?
It's rather ironic to warn people about making assumptions when the angel mating with women Greek Jewish myth is full of assumptions. Like assuming that it is possible for an angel to have human sex parts that produce sperm. Were angels procreating with one another before they fell to lusting on the daughters of men? One must assume that they were created with sexual organs so that two angels could make a baby angel? Yes Assumptions are required to believe this theory.
It's rather ironic to warn people about making assumptions when the angel mating with women Greek Jewish myth is full of assumptions. Like assuming that it is possible for an angel to have human sex parts that produce sperm. Were angels procreating with one another before they fell to lusting on the daughters of men? One must assume that they were created with sexual organs so that two angels could make a baby angel? Yes Assumptions are required to believe this theory.
Why are we miscommunicating.
Do you believe that this text is about angels that mated with women? Or do you believe that it is referring to all the angels that followed Lucifer in rebellion?
If you believe it means those angels that mated with women are you believing it is all the angels that rebelled with Lucifer that sinned this sin? Then all fallen angles are locked up?
So if all fallen angels are locked up then who is influencing people to do evil? Are demons fallen angels?
Or do you agree that they are locked up but can still influence people because the kind of locked up it is talking about is bound to the realm of darkness?
Do you believe that this text is about angels that mated with women? Or do you believe that it is referring to all the angels that followed Lucifer in rebellion?
If you believe it means those angels that mated with women are you believing it is all the angels that rebelled with Lucifer that sinned this sin? Then all fallen angles are locked up?
So if all fallen angels are locked up then who is influencing people to do evil? Are demons fallen angels?
Or do you agree that they are locked up but can still influence people because the kind of locked up it is talking about is bound to the realm of darkness?
They are the same group. The angels that fell mated with women and then were cast into Tartarus. Peter simply says "the angels that sinned" with no indication of them being a sub-group of a larger body of fallen angels.
Yes that is Biblically consistent.
Tartarus is the abyss, which is "the downstairs" so to speak, of Sheol, locked shut until "judgment" (2 Pet 2:4; Rev 9:1-3)
That is where the "angels that sinned" are currently imprisoned.
Yes that is Biblically consistent.
Tartarus is the abyss, which is "the downstairs" so to speak, of Sheol, locked shut until "judgment" (2 Pet 2:4; Rev 9:1-3)
That is where the "angels that sinned" are currently imprisoned.
I think I know what you mean. But not sure. When Paul quoted an Epicurean
poet the fact was true even though the pagan poets writings were not inspired.
But if Enoch 1 is being referenced, to make a point, is the point about judgment
or about angles/women. I haven't read Enoch 1 enough to know what it says
about angels leaving their first estate, or if those words are used in Enoch 1.
I will have to get back on that at a later time after reading some commentaries,
and references material, as this is out of my debth depth of knowledge.
At this time I do not see any proof of angels and women producing babies in Jude.
Or in Gen 6. But as I read up on the Hebrew and Greek for both passages I will see
if I can discover something that all the other English translators have missed,
(lol, now look who is laughing
) but it is not likely that I will.
I would like to know more about where Peter and Jude are coming from with Enoch 1.
It is one of those things I keep putting on the shelf for another day.
poet the fact was true even though the pagan poets writings were not inspired.
But if Enoch 1 is being referenced, to make a point, is the point about judgment
or about angles/women. I haven't read Enoch 1 enough to know what it says
about angels leaving their first estate, or if those words are used in Enoch 1.
I will have to get back on that at a later time after reading some commentaries,
and references material, as this is out of my debth depth of knowledge.
At this time I do not see any proof of angels and women producing babies in Jude.
Or in Gen 6. But as I read up on the Hebrew and Greek for both passages I will see
if I can discover something that all the other English translators have missed,
(lol, now look who is laughing
) but it is not likely that I will. I would like to know more about where Peter and Jude are coming from with Enoch 1.
It is one of those things I keep putting on the shelf for another day.
had been handed down over the centuries as part of Jewish oral history, and this oral
tradition may have preceded "The Book of Enoch" by hundreds of years. Enoch was not
written by Enoch. During the time Enoch was written, there were no prophets, which is
specifically why it is called an intertestamental period. It has multiple authors and is
considered pseudepigraphal. Despite being clearly well-known during the development
of the Hebrew Bible canon, 1 Enoch was excluded from both the Tanakh’s formal canon
and the Septuagint’s typical canon, and thus from the Deuterocanon’s writings.
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I lean toward that idea of Enochs prophesy being known and handed down but I don't know if there is any evidence to support that. If there were some rabbinical writings that predated the 2nd century BC we about it or some mention of it, I am sure I would have already heard something about it by now.
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