Is it loose to know that salvation is of God and not man. Is it loose to know the Father planned it, the Son executed it and the Holy Spirit reveals it to the heart of man that does not deserve it. You seem to think that man has something to do with salvation and the forgiveness of sins other then to believe and receive it by faith. You seem to always want to add something to grace to get man involved with salvation. Salvation is by grace and received through faith without anything else being added to it. Christ finished the work of salvation on the cross and it was complete. All man has to do is simply believe and be saved without works. That is the God of all grace acting in redemption toward sinful man. We freely receive what has freely been given by grace.
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[FONT="]I think that this is an important question. However, the way in which the question is asked reveals a certain trend in protestantism that actually lead me away from protestantism. I am not a Roman Catholic and neither am I a protestant. Neither do I believe that a person can just call themselves non-denominational and escape denomination. Some of the replies to the question have also touched upon some of the trends that I've noticed in protestantism that have also enabled me to walk away from protestantism and avoid Roman Catholicism. [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Essential: 1. Constituting or being part of the essence of something; inherent.[/FONT]
[FONT="]2. Basic or indispensable; necessary: essential ingredients.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]When we are hired for a job or perhaps become a student wherein we see that job/education as a mere means to an end we often begin to search for the path of least resistance. Our ears perk up when we are given the minimum requirements to pass and or get by. After all, it's not that we want the job/education so much as we want what the job/education affords. Money and or a diploma, a diploma that we might get a job, a job that we might get money. It's not that we want the money because in and of itself the money is useless, but the value assigned to it affords us other wants. We want what we want, stuff/roof over our head, transportation, clothes etc. And it's not that we really want these things but what it is that this stuff affords. A sense of security, protection, stability, social adequacy; the semblance of normalcy, a sense of purpose, status, comfort, peace, a less burdensome life. And why do we want these semblances? [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]We want these semblances because they are copies of stuff that only the Father can afford us. They're copies of the original print. It's not actually that new car smell, but the cheap dollar store spray with which, despite your odometer, you can spritz your senses into complacency. [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]And this is what most of us are doing to and with The One True Faith that we are given. We've reduced what we have been given, the fullness of it, to a mere semblance. We ask, not God, but each other and the multitude of teachers/bosses, what's the bare minimum I have to do/believe in order to get, "Saved"? We scour the bible for reductions that we might get our peanut noggins wrapped around the fullness of God's gift, the Faith. We strip the verses out of the texts and put special emphasis on our collection of reductions and then we defend it as a dog does a bone with no meat on it. Some of us even become like back-alley under nourished strays and growl, "if you are a true Christian, you'll covet this bone and anyone that might say there should be meat on this bone isn't a true Christian." [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]30,000 denominations and growing and the only thing that we can agree on across the board is, “Jesus is Lord”. And let’s not delude ourselves into thinking that the single denominations are united in thought, mind and faith. No, even within each denomination you’ll be hard-pressed to find three individuals that agree across the board on The Faith. So, if you want a very scary picture just imagine each individual as their own walking, talking, living denomination. That 30,000 number looks like paradise compared to the millions of flavors of Christianity that are being presented to others around the clock and around the globe as we speak (read). And when other individuals “let Jesus into their heart” they too found their own church of self and begin to spread the good news of their version of the one true God, that just so happens to look a lot like how they feel/think on the inside. [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]The thing about Truth (that is, Christ) is that you can’t divide him. Looking at Christianity from the outside in is like watching the men cast lots for Christ’s garments, a fight breaks out and they decide to tear the garments into pieces that they might all have a piece of the pie. [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]If the believers are the body of Christ and the body of Christ is the Church, then the body of Christ (the Church) is divided. Yet, I don’t believe that’s possible. A lot of people think the notion of an infallible Church is blasphemous but the idea that the body of Christ isn't infallible is equally distressing. Maybe we need to take another look at what Church/the body of Christ truly is. Out of these 33,000+ there can be only 1. Sad to think there can be only none. Now, I’m not saying that being a member of that one will save you. Neither am I saying that not being a member of that one will condemn you. God is rich in mercy. Where were the works and the baptisms and the anointing and the laying on of hands and the fellowship and the trials and tribulations of the thief on the cross? God is rich in mercy. No one disputes that. However, does that mean that we should live like the thief? Do we use the thief on the cross as the lens through which we construct our walk with God? Is the thief our template for Church?[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Hebrews 5:11-6:3 [/FONT]
[FONT="] 11We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Hebrews 6[/FONT]
[FONT="] 1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.[/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]We all read this and say, Amen as we have trained ourselves to do. However, pretend for once, that your fellow Christians from other churches/denominations are actually your brothers. Now, the fellow sitting next to you believes that baptisms refers to one thing and you believe that it refers to another. Both of you cannot be right. According to the text, whoever is wrong in regards to the elementary teachings on baptisms, has not had proper training in order to distinguish good from evil; the teaching about righteousness. While trying to persuade your dear brother that he is mistaken, which he too is attempting to do to you, you must go to other places in the bible to support and make your case. Of course, your dear brother is also doing this. Soon enough the two of you have only entrenched each other more deeply into your original views and not only this, but now you have a nice healthy nugget of bitterness. Next Sunday, you probably won’t sit by your dear brother. That’s why he goes to a different church after all. Otherwise, it might look like what it is: division, bitterness, pride. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Of course there’s a remedy. The two of you realize you have a trump card and after you’ve exhausted your entire arsenal of bible verses, you realize that the reason that you believe what you believe about the verses that you interpret to mean what they mean, is because God Himself has given you, personally, the ability to understand what you read via the Holy Spirit and for some reason God has not done this for your brother who holds an opposing view. Your dear brother also has this revelation. [/FONT]
[FONT="]However, if you look at the text, there is a very peculiar feature. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Hebrews 6:1[/FONT]
[FONT="]1[/FONT][FONT="]Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ[/FONT]
[FONT="]These elementary teachings are not at all debatable. They are Christianity 101. Kindergarten. They are concrete. Not only are these elementary teachings on baptism, laying on of hands, etc. concrete elementary teachings, but these teachings somehow are about Christ Himself! Yet, there are 33,000 denominations that beg to differ. And each boasts of the nugget, the crumb of Truth (that is, Christ) they’ve been able to glean. With all the focus on the end times and the affairs of the secular world, the sad truth is, the majority of these denominations are, at best, spiritual infants barely surviving on milk. [/FONT]
[FONT="]There’s a pink elephant in the room. To avoid being divisive, some of us avoid it and go along with others pretending it isn’t there. Others are all too happy to point it out and call the faith/salvation of anyone who doesn’t admit it, into question. Is there a third option? Does not love conquer? [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Either Christ is a body of conflicting individuals and the Holy Spirit leads us to believe in conflicting teachings, interpretations and traditions or each one of us needs to go back to the very beginning, as if we’ve learned nothing at all, sit before the dread judgment seat of Christ, and work out our own salvation with much fear and trembling, so we can become spiritually mature as we are called to become. Otherwise, we’re going to become a complacent victim of the teachings, interpretations and traditions of the times, a sad footnote in the history of Christianity, and if God is merciful, some of us might just wind up like the thief on the cross. [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Essential: 1. Constituting or being part of the essence of something; inherent.[/FONT]
[FONT="]2. Basic or indispensable; necessary: essential ingredients.[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]When we are hired for a job or perhaps become a student wherein we see that job/education as a mere means to an end we often begin to search for the path of least resistance. Our ears perk up when we are given the minimum requirements to pass and or get by. After all, it's not that we want the job/education so much as we want what the job/education affords. Money and or a diploma, a diploma that we might get a job, a job that we might get money. It's not that we want the money because in and of itself the money is useless, but the value assigned to it affords us other wants. We want what we want, stuff/roof over our head, transportation, clothes etc. And it's not that we really want these things but what it is that this stuff affords. A sense of security, protection, stability, social adequacy; the semblance of normalcy, a sense of purpose, status, comfort, peace, a less burdensome life. And why do we want these semblances? [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]We want these semblances because they are copies of stuff that only the Father can afford us. They're copies of the original print. It's not actually that new car smell, but the cheap dollar store spray with which, despite your odometer, you can spritz your senses into complacency. [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]And this is what most of us are doing to and with The One True Faith that we are given. We've reduced what we have been given, the fullness of it, to a mere semblance. We ask, not God, but each other and the multitude of teachers/bosses, what's the bare minimum I have to do/believe in order to get, "Saved"? We scour the bible for reductions that we might get our peanut noggins wrapped around the fullness of God's gift, the Faith. We strip the verses out of the texts and put special emphasis on our collection of reductions and then we defend it as a dog does a bone with no meat on it. Some of us even become like back-alley under nourished strays and growl, "if you are a true Christian, you'll covet this bone and anyone that might say there should be meat on this bone isn't a true Christian." [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]30,000 denominations and growing and the only thing that we can agree on across the board is, “Jesus is Lord”. And let’s not delude ourselves into thinking that the single denominations are united in thought, mind and faith. No, even within each denomination you’ll be hard-pressed to find three individuals that agree across the board on The Faith. So, if you want a very scary picture just imagine each individual as their own walking, talking, living denomination. That 30,000 number looks like paradise compared to the millions of flavors of Christianity that are being presented to others around the clock and around the globe as we speak (read). And when other individuals “let Jesus into their heart” they too found their own church of self and begin to spread the good news of their version of the one true God, that just so happens to look a lot like how they feel/think on the inside. [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]The thing about Truth (that is, Christ) is that you can’t divide him. Looking at Christianity from the outside in is like watching the men cast lots for Christ’s garments, a fight breaks out and they decide to tear the garments into pieces that they might all have a piece of the pie. [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]If the believers are the body of Christ and the body of Christ is the Church, then the body of Christ (the Church) is divided. Yet, I don’t believe that’s possible. A lot of people think the notion of an infallible Church is blasphemous but the idea that the body of Christ isn't infallible is equally distressing. Maybe we need to take another look at what Church/the body of Christ truly is. Out of these 33,000+ there can be only 1. Sad to think there can be only none. Now, I’m not saying that being a member of that one will save you. Neither am I saying that not being a member of that one will condemn you. God is rich in mercy. Where were the works and the baptisms and the anointing and the laying on of hands and the fellowship and the trials and tribulations of the thief on the cross? God is rich in mercy. No one disputes that. However, does that mean that we should live like the thief? Do we use the thief on the cross as the lens through which we construct our walk with God? Is the thief our template for Church?[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Hebrews 5:11-6:3 [/FONT]
[FONT="] 11We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Hebrews 6[/FONT]
[FONT="] 1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.[/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]We all read this and say, Amen as we have trained ourselves to do. However, pretend for once, that your fellow Christians from other churches/denominations are actually your brothers. Now, the fellow sitting next to you believes that baptisms refers to one thing and you believe that it refers to another. Both of you cannot be right. According to the text, whoever is wrong in regards to the elementary teachings on baptisms, has not had proper training in order to distinguish good from evil; the teaching about righteousness. While trying to persuade your dear brother that he is mistaken, which he too is attempting to do to you, you must go to other places in the bible to support and make your case. Of course, your dear brother is also doing this. Soon enough the two of you have only entrenched each other more deeply into your original views and not only this, but now you have a nice healthy nugget of bitterness. Next Sunday, you probably won’t sit by your dear brother. That’s why he goes to a different church after all. Otherwise, it might look like what it is: division, bitterness, pride. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Of course there’s a remedy. The two of you realize you have a trump card and after you’ve exhausted your entire arsenal of bible verses, you realize that the reason that you believe what you believe about the verses that you interpret to mean what they mean, is because God Himself has given you, personally, the ability to understand what you read via the Holy Spirit and for some reason God has not done this for your brother who holds an opposing view. Your dear brother also has this revelation. [/FONT]
[FONT="]However, if you look at the text, there is a very peculiar feature. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Hebrews 6:1[/FONT]
[FONT="]1[/FONT][FONT="]Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ[/FONT]
[FONT="]These elementary teachings are not at all debatable. They are Christianity 101. Kindergarten. They are concrete. Not only are these elementary teachings on baptism, laying on of hands, etc. concrete elementary teachings, but these teachings somehow are about Christ Himself! Yet, there are 33,000 denominations that beg to differ. And each boasts of the nugget, the crumb of Truth (that is, Christ) they’ve been able to glean. With all the focus on the end times and the affairs of the secular world, the sad truth is, the majority of these denominations are, at best, spiritual infants barely surviving on milk. [/FONT]
[FONT="]There’s a pink elephant in the room. To avoid being divisive, some of us avoid it and go along with others pretending it isn’t there. Others are all too happy to point it out and call the faith/salvation of anyone who doesn’t admit it, into question. Is there a third option? Does not love conquer? [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Either Christ is a body of conflicting individuals and the Holy Spirit leads us to believe in conflicting teachings, interpretations and traditions or each one of us needs to go back to the very beginning, as if we’ve learned nothing at all, sit before the dread judgment seat of Christ, and work out our own salvation with much fear and trembling, so we can become spiritually mature as we are called to become. Otherwise, we’re going to become a complacent victim of the teachings, interpretations and traditions of the times, a sad footnote in the history of Christianity, and if God is merciful, some of us might just wind up like the thief on the cross. [/FONT]
I want to make it clear that it's out of love for the believers that I stress our being united in thought, mind and The Faith.
It tests the heart to see our beloved brothers who are at each others throats, disguise it as a holy kiss and call it fellowship. It reminds me of the departed Judas. It's better to learn from Peter who at one time displayed a lack of humility and proclaimed that he was a true follower of Christ and would never deny his Master. He then denied his master three times. However, he was restored but if you look at the restoration of Peter he no longer has this same kind of self assured pride, disguised as zeal. He can never bring himself to say that he Agape's (returns) Christ's Agape. But humbly meets Christ's Agape (supreme, voluntary love) with Philia (friendship love, like a brother).
Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: " 'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'
Matthew 26:33
Peter replied, "Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will."
Matthew 26:40
Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter.
Matthew 26:69
[ Peter Disowns Jesus 3X ] Now Peter was sitting out in the courtyard, and a servant girl came to him. "You also were with Jesus of Galilee," she said.
Matthew 26:75
Immediately a rooster crowed. Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: "Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times." And he went outside and wept bitterly.
John 21:15-19 (New International Version)
Jesus Reinstates Peter
15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly (Agape) love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I (Philia) love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs." 16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly (Agape) love me?"
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I (Philia) love you."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."
17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you (Agape) love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you (Agape) love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I (philia) love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. 18 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!"
Humility is key.
It tests the heart to see our beloved brothers who are at each others throats, disguise it as a holy kiss and call it fellowship. It reminds me of the departed Judas. It's better to learn from Peter who at one time displayed a lack of humility and proclaimed that he was a true follower of Christ and would never deny his Master. He then denied his master three times. However, he was restored but if you look at the restoration of Peter he no longer has this same kind of self assured pride, disguised as zeal. He can never bring himself to say that he Agape's (returns) Christ's Agape. But humbly meets Christ's Agape (supreme, voluntary love) with Philia (friendship love, like a brother).
Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: " 'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'
Matthew 26:33
Peter replied, "Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will."
Matthew 26:40
Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter.
Matthew 26:69
[ Peter Disowns Jesus 3X ] Now Peter was sitting out in the courtyard, and a servant girl came to him. "You also were with Jesus of Galilee," she said.
Matthew 26:75
Immediately a rooster crowed. Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: "Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times." And he went outside and wept bitterly.
John 21:15-19 (New International Version)
Jesus Reinstates Peter
15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly (Agape) love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I (Philia) love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs." 16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly (Agape) love me?"
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I (Philia) love you."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."
17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you (Agape) love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you (Agape) love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I (philia) love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. 18 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!"
Humility is key.
A
Hey BLC,
I don't believe I've preached your points #7, #8, or #9 anywhere. I believe my focus is more on the 1 Corinthians 2:2 level "For I was determined not to know anything among you (CC) except Jesus Christ and Him crucified"
It seems we are having the same problem of labels that the Corinthian church did, which Paul addresses in this verse
1 Corinthian 1:12-13
Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
I don't believe John Calvin, Augustus, Jacobus Arminius, or Pelagian was crucified for any of us, but Christ was and Him alone. Granted, these men offered same amazing insight into the scriptures, that changed church History forever but I have to ask myself if these disputes and quarrals are what Christ was here to establish? Christ being the most controversial man to walk the face of this earth never associated himself with any of the popular movements of the day, He simply made it always clear that He was here to glorify the Father. Paul affirms this also in 1 Corinthians 10:31-33
31Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do ALL to the glory of God. 32 Give NO OFFENSE, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I also please ALL men in all things, not seeking my OWN PROFIT, but the profit of many, that THEY MAYBE SAVED.
My goal as a Christian is to make disciples, NOT Calvinist or Arminius' but Christians. Billy Graham has brought many to the faith as well as John Macarthur in which I am a big fan of both.
I don't believe I've preached your points #7, #8, or #9 anywhere. I believe my focus is more on the 1 Corinthians 2:2 level "For I was determined not to know anything among you (CC) except Jesus Christ and Him crucified"
It seems we are having the same problem of labels that the Corinthian church did, which Paul addresses in this verse
1 Corinthian 1:12-13
Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” 13. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
I don't believe John Calvin, Augustus, Jacobus Arminius, or Pelagian was crucified for any of us, but Christ was and Him alone. Granted, these men offered same amazing insight into the scriptures, that changed church History forever but I have to ask myself if these disputes and quarrals are what Christ was here to establish? Christ being the most controversial man to walk the face of this earth never associated himself with any of the popular movements of the day, He simply made it always clear that He was here to glorify the Father. Paul affirms this also in 1 Corinthians 10:31-33
31Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do ALL to the glory of God. 32 Give NO OFFENSE, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I also please ALL men in all things, not seeking my OWN PROFIT, but the profit of many, that THEY MAYBE SAVED.
My goal as a Christian is to make disciples, NOT Calvinist or Arminius' but Christians. Billy Graham has brought many to the faith as well as John Macarthur in which I am a big fan of both.
True faith will maintain itself, and I think point # 6 ''bearing fruit worthy of repentance'' covers the rest of your claims. However adding to what I believe, what you think I believe only causes division. I said what I believe to be essential and that is that.
If you think you can continue in sin and get to Heaven then you are bearing no fruit and will be cast into the fire with the rest of the evil trees.
If you think you can continue in sin and get to Heaven then you are bearing no fruit and will be cast into the fire with the rest of the evil trees.
If a certain sheep or a group of sheep were led astray because of false doctrine or had been given the wrong information, would you leave the flock and try to win them back? Would you lay your life down for those that were lead astray even if it cost you your reputation and criticism from others, even your closest friends? Those that teach that believers can lose the grace of God that forgave and cleansed them from sin through the blood of Christ have led others astray back into the very bondage that God delivered them from through the salvation of His eternal redemption. There are those that have come to CC and had this happen to them. Those that preach another gospel must be stopped before they do it to others who could become casualties. That is a serious offense and Paul said that those. who were considered to be brethren, who preach any other gospel then grace should be cut off (Gal 1:6-9).
These are not my claims, they are yours that you have posted on other threads. Grace does not cause division but unites hearts in the truth of God's nature. The grace of God teaches us not to continue in sin, but if we sin we have an advocate and when sin abounds grace does much more abound. And grace abounds towards us so that we can receive strength and power not to continue in sin. We don't lose our salvation in this process, but we grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ without fear of losing anything. We are still hid with Christ in God and have been sealed unto the day of redemption and nothing can separate us from the love of God, not even our sin. Sin breaks our fellowship, but grace restores it back when we humble ourselves before God. It is all grace plus nothing and we receive it all by faith without works of any kind.
A believer who backslides into sin is not receiving grace to live in sin, they are backslidden because they have stopped receiving grace. The only thing that will get them out of their backslidden state is by receiving grace and mercy from our Lord Jesus Christ. The reason that they can receive grace is because all our sin was judged and paid for by the death of Christ. There are believers that do not know how to receive grace and God has to devise a plan to put them in a place to receive it. None of us get grace based upon our own goodness, we get grace from the throne of grace because we need it all the time. Grace to be saved, forgiven and cleansed. Grace to stand in when we fail so God can raise us up. Grace for our weakness, our frailties and the failings of our human nature and dusty frame. Noah was spared in the flood because he found grace in the eyes of the Lord. We are spared when we find grace in the eyes of the Lord just like Noah.
A believer who backslides into sin is not receiving grace to live in sin, they are backslidden because they have stopped receiving grace. The only thing that will get them out of their backslidden state is by receiving grace and mercy from our Lord Jesus Christ. The reason that they can receive grace is because all our sin was judged and paid for by the death of Christ. There are believers that do not know how to receive grace and God has to devise a plan to put them in a place to receive it. None of us get grace based upon our own goodness, we get grace from the throne of grace because we need it all the time. Grace to be saved, forgiven and cleansed. Grace to stand in when we fail so God can raise us up. Grace for our weakness, our frailties and the failings of our human nature and dusty frame. Noah was spared in the flood because he found grace in the eyes of the Lord. We are spared when we find grace in the eyes of the Lord just like Noah.
C
yeah , but many forget conviently that even Jesus said there is a time to shake the dust off of your feet when a person continues to reject your words.....they have never realized that even they r pushing people away by...being pushy..speak the word, then LET the Holy Spirit do what He was sent to do..thats what i believe.
L
I apologize BLC if you assumed I meant that I did not care about saving lives. All I meant by my comment was that I saw the direction the thread was headed, a direction so many threads seem to go where instead of just stating ones' opinion, there seemed to be attacks on individuals and their statements.
You have a good heart and have always put the Lord first in seeking the lost and building up the body of Christ. My problem is with them that would pervert the gospel of grace. There is no compromise and no common ground when the gospel of grace is twisted from its divine intent. The Spirit of God is one Spirit and it is the Spirit of grace (Heb 10:29). If you and I have the same Spirit, that Spirit witnesses in us the truth of the gospel. Those that would pervert the gospel have not the witness in them nor the grace that reveals the person of Christ who came by grace and truth. The grace of God will always be under attack by the accuser of the brethren but we must always be strong in grace.
J
I agree with MahogonySnail.
Baptism is essential - Recieveing the Holy Spirit and Baptism in the Spirit are two different things though.
Their other six points were good ones as well.
Not just believeing in the trinity
or believing God's Son, JC, died for you.
But Believeing that GOD's Son, Jesus Christ, is the second person in the trinity.
Baptism is essential - Recieveing the Holy Spirit and Baptism in the Spirit are two different things though.
Their other six points were good ones as well.
Not just believeing in the trinity
or believing God's Son, JC, died for you.
But Believeing that GOD's Son, Jesus Christ, is the second person in the trinity.
BLC said,
Well you know the bible talks about FALLING from grace. Can you lose it? Well you can fall from it. And if you are outisde God's grace by self-effort or works, then your sins are not covered by grace, and you can't be sure you are saved, because God will hold you accountable to the Law of Moses in its fullness. See Galatians.
I believe that too, except I believe we may also freely reject it , abuse, deny, shipwreck it, or even treat it cheaply it like Esau gave away his birthright for a meal. That's what the bible says.
I should probably point out that BLC's views on grace and eternal salvation are only one of a couple of different views within Christianity, and his views are by no means in the majority in either apostolic or protestant denominations.
For the person that does not think wrong or bad doctrine can lead to loss of salvation, what motivation do they have to seek and find the truth?
In the average church, some don't believe in satan, some think God is Mother and a woman, some think they can live with boyfriend and girlfriend unmarried, some think they are saved by going to church or by being baptised, others think that all religions lead to salvation and so Jesus is just one of a number of possible choices they could believe in.
Now will someone try and tell us that these things aren't important to salvation. That the absense of these indicates a) don't have salvation in the first place, or b) they will not obtain salvation. ?
BLC says none of the above cases are in danger of loss of salvation. Even though I know for a fact there are people named Christians in the church who believe in Christ and God, and yet believe in these wrong things and probably will until the day they die.
But don't worry, you can believe whatever you like, and still go to heaven.
Well you know the bible talks about FALLING from grace. Can you lose it? Well you can fall from it. And if you are outisde God's grace by self-effort or works, then your sins are not covered by grace, and you can't be sure you are saved, because God will hold you accountable to the Law of Moses in its fullness. See Galatians.
I believe that too, except I believe we may also freely reject it , abuse, deny, shipwreck it, or even treat it cheaply it like Esau gave away his birthright for a meal. That's what the bible says.
I should probably point out that BLC's views on grace and eternal salvation are only one of a couple of different views within Christianity, and his views are by no means in the majority in either apostolic or protestant denominations.
For the person that does not think wrong or bad doctrine can lead to loss of salvation, what motivation do they have to seek and find the truth?
In the average church, some don't believe in satan, some think God is Mother and a woman, some think they can live with boyfriend and girlfriend unmarried, some think they are saved by going to church or by being baptised, others think that all religions lead to salvation and so Jesus is just one of a number of possible choices they could believe in.
Now will someone try and tell us that these things aren't important to salvation. That the absense of these indicates a) don't have salvation in the first place, or b) they will not obtain salvation. ?
BLC says none of the above cases are in danger of loss of salvation. Even though I know for a fact there are people named Christians in the church who believe in Christ and God, and yet believe in these wrong things and probably will until the day they die.
But don't worry, you can believe whatever you like, and still go to heaven.
Thing is OSAS is intimately tied to Jesus' deity and His work on the cross. It is as essential as it gets.
Why?
Well.. Jesus promises to never leave nor forsake us.. if somehow He can leave us.. He breaks His promise.. is not really God.
If we have to maintain good works to keep our salvation.. His payment, His grace for us is not enough... He is not really God.
If we are saved.. from what? Our sins... how then can sin seperate us from Christ after salvation?
Anyway--
the essentials of christian faith- (altho not all essential to salvation)
belief that Jesus.. the Holy Spirit and the Father are all equally one God
belief that Jesus is God
belief that the bible is the Word of God
salvation by grace through faith in Jesus
assurance of salvation
eternal security
baptism after salvation
why are these essentials? Because they are all tied to or in regards to salvation and Jesus' deity. They are inseperable.
Why?
Well.. Jesus promises to never leave nor forsake us.. if somehow He can leave us.. He breaks His promise.. is not really God.
If we have to maintain good works to keep our salvation.. His payment, His grace for us is not enough... He is not really God.
If we are saved.. from what? Our sins... how then can sin seperate us from Christ after salvation?
Anyway--
the essentials of christian faith- (altho not all essential to salvation)
belief that Jesus.. the Holy Spirit and the Father are all equally one God
belief that Jesus is God
belief that the bible is the Word of God
salvation by grace through faith in Jesus
assurance of salvation
eternal security
baptism after salvation
why are these essentials? Because they are all tied to or in regards to salvation and Jesus' deity. They are inseperable.
- Status