i'm thinking of a preacher that preached unconditional eternal security who committed suicide after preaching for YEARS.
is he in heaven or hell right now?
is he in heaven or hell right now?
What are the Consequences of Falling from Grace?
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Gr8grace
Guest
heaven if he had ever had a moment of faith in trusting The Lord Jesus Christ for his salvation. Acts 16:31
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Gr8grace
Guest
if he had a religious, legalistic crowd. I wouldn't judge him to harshly on getting out and going home.
one can be sick in the body and go to heaven..so can one be sick in the head and go to heaven..
1 John 3:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
you can be sick in your body and go to heaven.......if your heart is right.....if not.....you go to hell
a Christian can never get to the place of suicide (sick in the head, as you say) without totally rejected Gods help
1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
John 14:26-27 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
you can be sick in your body and go to heaven.......if your heart is right.....if not.....you go to hell
a Christian can never get to the place of suicide (sick in the head, as you say) without totally rejected Gods help
1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
John 14:26-27 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Isaiah 53:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Jesus died to bring healing to our bodies as well...so if we die with a sickness..would we go to heaven..of course.....same for the sickness in the head..mental sickness...to suggest otherwise is unfounded ...
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Jesus died to bring healing to our bodies as well...so if we die with a sickness..would we go to heaven..of course.....same for the sickness in the head..mental sickness...to suggest otherwise is unfounded ...
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Gr8grace
Guest
It was kind of tongue and cheek, yet not. I have never had suicidal thoughts, but I know and have seen what some people have gone through............the best I can do is say I hope I never have suicidal thoughts.
But yeah, there are going to be people who committed suicide in heaven.
Eternal life is a GIFT and His gifts are IRREVOCABLE.
Let me ask you some questions:
"How many of your sins were yet to be committed when THEY WERE PAID FOR ON THE CROSS?"
How many of your sins were yet to be committed when HE SAID, John 3:36 (HCSB)
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him." ; HOW MANY?
How many of your sins were yet to be committed when HE SAID, "2 Corinthians 5:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation." ; HOW MANY?
How many of your sins were yet to be committed when HE SAID, "1 John 2:2 (NIV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." ; HOW MANY?
How many of your sins were yet to be committed when HE SAID, "1 Corinthians 6:20 (NCV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] because you were bought by God for a price. So honor God with your bodies." ; HOW MANY?
How many of your sins were yet to be committed when HE SAID, "2 Corinthians 12:9 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Therefore, I will most gladly boast all the more about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may reside in me." ; HOW MANY?
How many of your sins were yet to be committed when HE SAID, "Mark 3:28-29 (NKJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter;
[SUP]29 [/SUP] but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation"-- ; HOW MANY? {Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is rejecting the truths about Christ that the HOLY SPIRIT has been trying to apply to your heart, to bring you to Saving Faith.}
How many of your sins were yet to be committed when HE SAID, "Ephesians 2:8-9 (NRSV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not the result of works, so that no one may boast." ; HOW MANY?
Your works have absolutely NOTHING to do with getting you saved or keeping you saved; however BEING SAVED will PRODUCE or MANIFEST ITSELF via good works.
SALVATION is purely and only by the GRACE and GOD spawning from HIS MERCY. Your works that are purely because you LOVE HIM, spawn out of that SALVATION that was a gift of GOD. You can lose your rewards, your crowns, and even fall from you POSITION HE GAVE YOU, like JUDAS DID his Apostleship, but you cannot FALL from SALVATION.
One more question: HOW MANY SINS ARE NOT FORGIVEN BECAUSE OF WHAT HE DID ON THE CROSS?
RIGHT, then we know that the only sin that will send people to Hades/Hell; is rejecting what the Holy Spirit is trying to get us to believe in our hearts about Jesus Christ, which is the ONLY WAY TO BE SAVED.
As for that Pastor, is he in heaven or hades, you will have to ask the one who can see the HEART.
Becoming a Pastor does not mean the person is SAVED. I suspect that there are more unsaved Pastors than saved Pastors, because the Parable of the Gates, is talking ONLY about people who claim to be Christians.
If He was truly born again, he is in heaven, and if he was not born again, he is in hades.
So your error is thinking that suicide sends a person to hell. JESUS says the ONLY sin that does that is rejecting what the HOLY SPIRIT is trying to get you to believe. What about those who NEVER heard of Jesus the CREATOR, the Scriptures still say they are still without excuse, because HIS GLORY is written in everything HE created.
Romans 1:18-21 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
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Gr8grace
Guest
There is nothing in the bible that says a believer WILL produce fruits or good works. We are called so that we SHOULD produce fruit or good works.
We have the privilege to use our own volition to agree with Him in our works and Glorify Him. How does he get glory by forcing believers to work for Him?
By saying that we WILL produce fruit and good works is saying we are saved by them. We are saved by Grace, after that we have the privilege and opportunity to work for Him through our own positive volition and Glorify Him. If we don't we are still saved.
It is called Grace.
SALVATION follows this sequence,
The Holy Spirit prepares the heart, searching for fertile soil, to sow the word of GOD in:
Romans 8:27 (NRSV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And God, who searches the heart, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Luke 8:5-15 (ESV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell along the path and was trampled underfoot, and the birds of the air devoured it.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And some fell on the rock, and as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up with it and choked it.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And some fell into good soil and grew and yielded a hundredfold.” As he said these things, he called out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
Acts 7:51 (NRSV) 51 "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you are forever opposing the Holy Spirit, just as your ancestors used to do.
The Holy Spirit ENTERS THE HEART:
Acts 8:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John,
[SUP]15 [/SUP] who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 15:8-9 (ASV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Romans 2:29 (ESV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
Ezekiel 37:14 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.' "
The Holy Spirit THEN pours GOD's LOVE directly into our heart, PRODUCING Love for HIM, and Saving FAITH, not of ourselves:
Romans 5:5 (NRSV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us.
Romans 5:1-5 (NRSV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand; and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us.
GOD's LOVE in our HEARTS PRODUCES a crop that we cannot generate on our own, nor achieve any part of it apart from having the HOLY SPIRIT IN OUR HEART, doing HIS work on our hearts. WE come to Believe as the Holy Spirit births our human spirit into eternal life, and applies knowledge about CHRIST and His word there:
Titus 3:4-5 (NIV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
At that very moment, we become SAVED, having our human spirit eternally alive, NOT BY ANYTHING WE HAVE DONE, but by what JESUS CHRIST did on the Cross and WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS DONE in our hearts:
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
THE obedience that is of GOD, comes after one is saved, having his humans spirit eternally alive. THAT EVEN INCLUDES the ability to RECEIVE and Submit to JESUS AS LORD, meaning MASTER. IT is the Holy Spirit IN US, having pours GOD's LOVE there, that gets ALL THE CREDIT. NO WE DO NOT GET TO TAKE CREDIT AND PAT OURSELVES ON THE BACK FOR ANY OF IT.
You made the comment: "There is nothing in the bible that says a believer WILL produce fruits or good works."
Try not to choke on this, but DO RECIEVE IT AND BELIEVE IT:
Matthew 7:17-20 (NIV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.
1 John 2:3-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] This is how we are sure that we have come to know Him: by keeping His commands.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” yet doesn't keep His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But whoever keeps His word, truly in him the love of God is perfected. This is how we know we are in Him:
Matthew 25:31-46 (ESV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
[SUP]33 [/SUP] And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
[SUP]34 [/SUP] Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
[SUP]35 [/SUP] For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
[SUP]36 [/SUP] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
[SUP]37 [/SUP] Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP] And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
[SUP]39 [/SUP] And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
[SUP]40 [/SUP] And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
[SUP]41 [/SUP] “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
[SUP]42 [/SUP] For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
[SUP]43 [/SUP] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
[SUP]44 [/SUP] Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
[SUP]45 [/SUP] Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
[SUP]46 [/SUP] And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Philippians 2:13 (NIV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
Ephesians 2:10 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
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If a mature christian does not understand everyone produces fruit. It is the words that come out of their heart, it is the way they handle people, it is the desire to uplift and care.
Jesus is emphasising that if the fruit is bad or non-existant things will be dealt with. It is a clear warning, make sure you fulfill the expectation of Jesus, because we are called to bring about change. It is who Jesus is, it is the Holy Spirit and His nature, it is the cross and walking. The very life of God is dynamic action, movement.
Only someone who does not know Jesus would argue fruit does not matter. Why does a farmer plant seed, to gain a harvest. God is a farmer, he sows a seed. He underlines how passive He is, how the seed itself will grow and cause change. It is up to us to show how we choose to respond, not to justify our selves but to bring glory to our Lord.
It is a sin, evil to bring the accusation it is evil to do good, and that those who do good only do it for their own gain. Jesus himself talks about reward to encourage people to understand fruit is what it is all about, being alive, letting love flow, no sitting idly by and letting things just rip. Those who talk against the brethren should fear for their own souls before the Christ they claim to follow and love, because they are denying His work and grace they claim to hold so dear.
I agree with you. There is a step of faith walking with Jesus. You have to be prepared to loose it all and reach out and question, to be honest, to recognise where you are and to walk in it. One way of expressing this faith is to say Jesus will never let me go, and I believe that. I can and sometimes I feel I have let him go. One can loose ones certainty or feeling of position and wonder what you are doing, in a kind of spiritual limbo. So I understand the language, but I also understand it denies the dynamic of the relationship we have with the Lord.
But if people feel reassured the Lord is with them, amen. If they feel they can do anything because they are saved, then they have lost the plot and it has become a lie in their lives. It sounds on balance to have done more harm than good, and has caused me in the eyes of many here to be called an unbeliever, pharisee and evil. Now that truly is sinful and wrong, condemning a brother for something that is not sinful, but an honest reflection of their walk with Jesus.
But maybe that is how the enemy uses the weeds, who want so much a contract with no escape clause because they desperately suspect they do not really know Jesus.
well, if a person thinks that they are saved by grace so therefore they do whatever they want, then I would question if they really know Christ also. but, that being said, do not lump everyone who comes with a strong grace message into that category.
You clearly know nothing about clinical depression. Someone who believes can become an unbeliever for a time because of their illness. I would leave it to God to judge if I were you. He understands mental illness. You cannot judge it on normal terms. A person may seek peace and rest without realising that suicide is involved,
I have a strong grace message. In fact to walk with Jesus, He has fantastic grace. Just look at the disciples and how long it took to see He was Christ. From our perspective it seems so obvious, but he was their teacher, things were hard and rough, and what He said made sense, but not that spectacular. I realise people tend to spiritualise their experience rather than understand how the Lord can change us.
The latter is your failure. He will never let you go. 'My sheep -- will NEVER perish and none shall pluck them from My hand. My Father Who gave them to me is greater than I, and none IS ABLE to pluck them from His hand. I and My Father are ONE.'
No one on here feels that. That is 'easy believism'. Such a person has never been saved from sin.
Valiant - I do not have your sense of certainty, "your failure", "No one on here feels that."
You declared the other day hyper-grace does not exist and it is meaningless. You were wrong then and your certainty now is also wrong. I know the reasons why people want OSAS, but the promises of Christ are enough.
Do you know how Jesus says we are to show we are His people? By the love we have for one another.
This is emotional reality, the hard graft, the understanding of what boundaries are, what the individual is, how we are called to relate and interact.
But you want the emphasis to be on a doctrine or a way of looking at faith. That should tell you who is really religious and who is talking about reality.
HE changes us from the inside out, as we FEED on HIS WORD.
The theology that we HAVE TO KEEP our Salvation, is the opposite of HE CHANGES US.
Anything good in me JESUS CHRIST DID IN ME.
Anything bad I did, is my fault and not the Devil's
Therefore, I need to confess it, and repent of it.
John 10:27-28 (ASV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[SUP]28 [/SUP] and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
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the fact that all our sins were in the future at the time of Christ's atonement is totally immaterial. our sins were not forgiven at the time of Christ's death. we were not justified when he said "it is finished"
what was finished was the supreme and eternal and perfect work of Christ in providing the basis of our justification
Romans 3:26 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Christ on the cross offered to God a perfect substitute for the penalty which should have been inflicted upon us. we became partakers of His sufficient Grace WHEN AND ONLY WHEN we savingly believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
justification takes place the moment we accept God's gracious gift, not at the time Christ died on the cross.
our sins were not remitted at CALVARY, they were remitted at CONVERSION
The idea of justification in respect to sins which have not yet been committed is directly contrary to the teachings of God's word
paul is writing about justification in Romans 3 look what he says:
Romans 3:25 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
he distinctly states that justification is "for the remission of sins that are past"
what was finished was the supreme and eternal and perfect work of Christ in providing the basis of our justification
Romans 3:26 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Christ on the cross offered to God a perfect substitute for the penalty which should have been inflicted upon us. we became partakers of His sufficient Grace WHEN AND ONLY WHEN we savingly believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
justification takes place the moment we accept God's gracious gift, not at the time Christ died on the cross.
our sins were not remitted at CALVARY, they were remitted at CONVERSION
The idea of justification in respect to sins which have not yet been committed is directly contrary to the teachings of God's word
paul is writing about justification in Romans 3 look what he says:
Romans 3:25 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
he distinctly states that justification is "for the remission of sins that are past"