What are these verses in Acts 15 talking about?

[persistent]

“And will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, Saith the Lord,”

and how Jesus said he was going to raise up the temple they destroy ? When Gods temple was raised back up from ruin people who believed would seek him he would draw men to him through rebuilding his temple for its ruins

He raised Jesus body his temple up from death after men destroyed it and this would cause men to seek him believing the gospel

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32-33‬ ‭

men would destroy the “son of David “ the messiah but God would raise him up and send him to all nations gathering his people from among Jew foret and also gentile this won’t happen someday when a man made temple is rebuilt on this earth but it happens when we look to Jesus and hear the revelation of the old testsment in the gospel

“Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
‭‭John‬ ‭2:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The council of Jerusalem recorded at Acts 15th chapter takes place after the Apostles have all been imbued with the Holy Spirit and Paul was there also with Barnabas Acts 15: 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;((((
Here they are talking about the Holy Spirit already given to Gentiles also. All at this council were aware of Christ's resurrection and the 'object' of verse 15 could not have been in regards to the resurrection as they were all well aware of and some were the eyewitnesses to that fact.
So verse 15 is where Luke records that the focus of this council was directed to another part of prophecy recorded by Amos and yet to be fulfilled. It seems that this 'interjection' may have even caught many by surprise. Paul may have been the one here with the most knowledge of Scripture. The others present while aware of Scripture may not have been so knowledgeable. But Paul didn't speak up and James made the final decision.
13 ¶ And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me(((((
It seems that starting at verse 15 Luke records a moment at this council where the intercession by James was welcomed though James may not have been the one looked upon with greatest regard. Maybe like Elihu's response to Job and the three 'advisors', James's response was listened to and accepted.
Possibly the council here was long and somewhat 'exasperating' and James's input was a compromise at this time. It may be that James directing attention to verses recorded by Amos could have been a direct influence of The Holy Spirit guiding James's thought to reference Amos at this time. Amos 9th chapter most likely deals with 2nd Advent....................................

Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. 10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11 ¶ In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The council of Jerusalem recorded at Acts 15th chapter takes place after the Apostles have all been imbued with the Holy Spirit and Paul was there also with Barnabas Acts 15: 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;((((
Here they are talking about the Holy Spirit already given to Gentiles also. All at this council were aware of Christ's resurrection and the 'object' of verse 15 could not have been in regards to the resurrection as they were all well aware of and some were the eyewitnesses to that fact.
So verse 15 is where Luke records that the focus of this council was directed to another part of prophecy recorded by Amos and yet to be fulfilled. It seems that this 'interjection' may have even caught many by surprise. Paul may have been the one here with the most knowledge of Scripture. The others present while aware of Scripture may not have been so knowledgeable. But Paul didn't speak up and James made the final decision.
13 ¶ And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me(((((
It seems that starting at verse 15 Luke records a moment at this council where the intercession by James was welcomed though James may not have been the one looked upon with greatest regard. Maybe like Elihu's response to Job and the three 'advisors', James's response was listened to and accepted.
Possibly the council here was long and somewhat 'exasperating' and James's input was a compromise at this time. It may be that James directing attention to verses recorded by Amos could have been a direct influence of The Holy Spirit guiding James's thought to reference Amos at this time. Amos 9th chapter most likely deals with 2nd Advent....................................

Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. 10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11 ¶ In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

The council of Jerusalem recorded at Acts 15th chapter takes place after the Apostles have all been imbued with the Holy Spirit and Paul was there also with Barnabas Acts 15: 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;((((“

True

Here they are talking about the Holy Spirit already given to Gentiles also. ( acts chapter 10) All at this council were aware of Christ's resurrection ( true but not at all seeing the point )

and the 'object' of verse 15 could not have been in regards to the resurrection as they were all well aware of and some were the eyewitnesses to that fact.

not sure what your saying but wouldn’t dispute that they all knew about the resurrection lol just don’t see the relevance the chapter just says what it says and is about what it’s about without us having to explain it watch

This is the subject they are discussing the issue that arose

“And certain men which came down from Judæa taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

( this teaching was causing a rift in the church unless you get circumcised and keep Moses law you can’t be saved they said )

When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

instead of trying to reframe anything we can just read it peter speaks his argument after the issue is brought up remember this is the subject and why they came to ask this question and settle it

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. ( they present it to them )

And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, ( his argument is gentiles never had the law and God gave them the Holy Ghost like he did us )

even as he did unto us; and put no difference between us and them, ( the law does set them apart as different ) purifying their hearts by faith.

Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? ( the law of Moses ) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5-11‬

Peter is saying they received the Holy Ghost already why do we then want to put them under the law of sin and death and subvert thier souls like it did To our fathers and us ?

James makes his judgement known about the matter

“Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.


….they wrote a letter after it’s all settled and send it back with Paul and barnabus an official settlement by the apostles and congregation of this issue whether Christian’s need to be circumcised or keep Moses law to belong to God and be saved

forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:19-21, 24‬ ‭

when christians try to place the old covenant law on top of the New Testament word of Christ it’s opposed one is saying this to us

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

about the gospel isn’t making us guilty imputing sin against us and holding us guilty before God without excuse the gospel is speaks my this to us the opposite of imputing sin

“and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-48‬ a

this is why you never hear the apostles preaching Moses law to anyone but preaching the gospel instead

One says to mankind your guilty of all this sin now you are sentenced to death you sinner !

at he other says “ repent and believe the gospel get baptized and I will remit all your sins d teach you my ways of eternal
Life in my kingdom

one impites every sin one remits oir sins through repentance and faith

at he law of Moses is not Christian doctrine ot is what brought man to the need for accepting and believing the gospel

 

[persistent]

The council of Jerusalem recorded at Acts 15th chapter takes place after the Apostles have all been imbued with the Holy Spirit and Paul was there also with Barnabas Acts 15: 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;((((“

True

Here they are talking about the Holy Spirit already given to Gentiles also. ( acts chapter 10) All at this council were aware of Christ's resurrection ( true but not at all seeing the point )

and the 'object' of verse 15 could not have been in regards to the resurrection as they were all well aware of and some were the eyewitnesses to that fact.

not sure what your saying but wouldn’t dispute that they all knew about the resurrection lol just don’t see the relevance the chapter just says what it says and is about what it’s about without us having to explain it watch

This is the subject they are discussing the issue that arose

“And certain men which came down from Judæa taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

( this teaching was causing a rift in the church unless you get circumcised and keep Moses law you can’t be saved they said )

When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

instead of trying to reframe anything we can just read it peter speaks his argument after the issue is brought up remember this is the subject and why they came to ask this question and settle it

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. ( they present it to them )

And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, ( his argument is gentiles never had the law and God gave them the Holy Ghost like he did us )

even as he did unto us; and put no difference between us and them, ( the law does set them apart as different ) purifying their hearts by faith.

Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? ( the law of Moses ) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5-11‬

Peter is saying they received the Holy Ghost already why do we then want to put them under the law of sin and death and subvert thier souls like it did To our fathers and us ?

James makes his judgement known about the matter

“Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.


….they wrote a letter after it’s all settled and send it back with Paul and barnabus an official settlement by the apostles and congregation of this issue whether Christian’s need to be circumcised or keep Moses law to belong to God and be saved

forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:19-21, 24‬ ‭

when christians try to place the old covenant law on top of the New Testament word of Christ it’s opposed one is saying this to us

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

about the gospel isn’t making us guilty imputing sin against us and holding us guilty before God without excuse the gospel is speaks my this to us the opposite of imputing sin

“and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-48‬ a

this is why you never hear the apostles preaching Moses law to anyone but preaching the gospel instead

One says to mankind your guilty of all this sin now you are sentenced to death you sinner !

at he other says “ repent and believe the gospel get baptized and I will remit all your sins d teach you my ways of eternal
Life in my kingdom

one impites every sin one remits oir sins through repentance and faith

at he law of Moses is not Christian doctrine ot is what brought man to the need for accepting and believing the gospel

 

[persistent]

grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5-11‬

Peter is saying they received the Holy Ghost already why do we then want to put them under the law of sin and death and subvert thier souls like it did To our fathers and us ?

James makes his judgement known about the matter

“Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.


….they wrote a letter after it’s all settled and send it back with Paul and barnabus an official settlement by the apostles and congregation of this issue whether Christian’s need to be circumcised or keep Moses law to belong to God and be saved

forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:19-21, 24‬ ‭
You missed the verses 16, 17, 18 which are taken from Amos the 9th chapter. For some reason James refers to the prophecy given to Amos. The 9th chapter of Amos does not seem to talk about the Mosaic laws being observed by Gentiles and whether or not burdens would be unnecessarily placed on them.

 

[FredVB]

“Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
….they wrote a letter after it’s all settled and send it back with Paul and barnabus an official settlement by the apostles and congregation of this issue whether Christian’s need to be circumcised or keep Moses law to belong to God and be saved
forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:19-21, 24‬ ‭
James refers to the prophecy given to Amos. The 9th chapter of Amos does not seem to talk about the Mosaic laws being observed by Gentiles.

What is abstaining from blood about? Certainly to not have anything to do with murder. One of the commandments from God is saying you shall not kill. Along with not having anything from what is strangled, suggesting not to have anything from abused animals (and how would you know, if you are not checking, which you should?), it is continuing from Genesis 9 where God's circumstantial permission (not highest will shown in the design meant for us) is with requirement to remove all the blood from the slaughtered animals before any meat is cooked from it afterward, and the slaughter of animals given into man's hands is spoken of in the same sentence about dealing with murder among humans.

Those who come to Christ, if not circumcised already, do not need to be circumcised with the ceremony with which they are becoming Jewish with the covenant for that. Gentiles coming to Christ do not need to become Jewish. Commandments spoken by God and written by God on two occasions afterward are still of importance.

The prophecy quoted is "that the residue of men might seek after Yahweh, and all the gentiles upon whom my name is called." It shows God's care and God's grace reaches the gentiles through Jesus Christ and his work of atonement, without them being Jewish with the circumcision for that. As it is shown in Isaiah 56:6 gentiles who had been separate will come and join to Yahweh and observe Sabbath, even on God's holy mountain which is in prophecy such as in Isaiah 11:9.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

James prefaces what it’s about brother he makes a statement about how God visited gentiles in Simeon’s day and the. Says “ the prophet agrees with this “


“And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

( now he is using scripture from Amos 9 to support his point that gentiles who didn’t have the law we’re called as well as Jews from before hand )


And to this agree the words of the prophets; ( he’s saying this agrees with what unjust said ) as it is written, After this I will return, And will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; And I will build again the ruins thereof,

And I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, Saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. “

( now James has stated his case and makes his decision about whether the law of Moses needs to be kept )


Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:13-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


He’s quoting from Amos 9 about the destruction of Jerusalem but for the believing remnant and calling of gentiles seperate from the old covenant which was James point and what they were talking about “ is it necassary to get circumcised and keep
Moses law ?”

Peter makes his argument paul and Silas and then James and they all come to the conclusion “ it’s a subversion of a persons soul to add the law of Moses into the gospel and is not part of our doctrine

Its important to note where David’s temple is it’s not on earth , it’s based on the promise God made to him regarding the eternal kingdom at the right hand of God

 

[persistent]

It shows God's care and God's grace reaches the gentiles through Jesus Christ and his work of atonement,

This is true. I am still studying these verses and there seems to be more to them. i.e. still future events.

Amos 9 about the destruction of Jerusalem

And this is possibly indicative that there may be more to these verses. Read answer to FredVB. To me this is peripheral and not matter of salvation. My discussions with a local teacher of House of Jacob started June 2021 based on these verses and this discussion continues till I convert him or he converts me. Very amicable as he is a brother in Christ or very likely so. The discussion likely does not hinge on these verses but they are possibly significant.

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return

I have prayed about this, talked with AG contact, read over comments on this thread and read commentaries at Bible Hub and still not certain but what there may be indicated in conjunction with Amos 9:11-12 and possibly Jer. 12:15 some future prophecy. The highlighted words above seem to be the most significant indicators of some future prophecy. Particularly 'this'. What is 'this' referring to? And then

Amos 9:11 ¶ In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

seems that there may be either dual aspect to these verses or reference to yet future events. Commentaries mention some variations regarding the word Edom and since my discussions with the teacher of House of Jacob, who looks at the people currently living in the state of Israel as predominantly Edomites this makes for a 'twist' in our discussion. He, teacher of HoJ, also certain that Temple in Jerusalem will be built eventually. This teacher has much more background of Bible verse than me. None of this likely is of any significance to your understanding of these verses but I intend to pursue this matter with open mind as to interpretations of these verses.

 

[FredVB]

“Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
….they wrote a letter after it’s all settled and send it back with Paul and barnabus an official settlement by the apostles and congregation of this issue whether Christian’s need to be circumcised or keep Moses law to belong to God and be saved
forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:19-21, 24‬ ‭
James refers to the prophecy given to Amos. The 9th chapter of Amos does not seem to talk about the Mosaic laws being observed by Gentiles.

What is abstaining from blood about? Certainly to not have anything to do with murder. One of the commandments from God is saying you shall not kill. Along with not having anything from what is strangled, suggesting not to have anything from abused animals (and how would you know, if you are not checking, which you should?), it is continuing from Genesis 9 where God's circumstantial permission (not highest will shown in the design meant for us) is with requirement to remove all the blood from the slaughtered animals before any meat is cooked from it afterward, and the slaughter of animals given into man's hands is spoken of in the same sentence about dealing with murder among humans.

Those who come to Christ, if not circumcised already, do not need to be circumcised with the ceremony with which they are becoming Jewish with the covenant for that. Gentiles coming to Christ do not need to become Jewish. Commandments spoken by God and written by God on two occasions afterward are still of importance.

The prophecy quoted is "that the residue of men might seek after Yahweh, and all the gentiles upon whom my name is called." It shows God's care and God's grace reaches the gentiles through Jesus Christ and his work of atonement, without them being Jewish with the circumcision for that. As it is shown in Isaiah 56:6 gentiles who had been separate will come and join to Yahweh and observe Sabbath, even on God's holy mountain which is in prophecy such as in Isaiah 11:9.

This is true. I am still studying these verses and there seems to be more to them. i.e. still future events.

And this is possibly indicative that there may be more to these verses. To me this is peripheral and not matter of salvation. My discussions with a local teacher of House of Jacob started June 2021 based on these verses and this discussion continues till I convert him or he converts me. Very amicable as he is a brother in Christ or very likely so. The discussion likely does not hinge on these verses but they are possibly significant.

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return

I have prayed about this, talked with AG contact, read over comments on this thread and read commentaries at Bible Hub and still not certain but what there may be indicated in conjunction with Amos 9:11-12 and possibly Jer. 12:15 some future prophecy. The highlighted words above seem to be the most significant indicators of some future prophecy. Particularly 'this'. What is 'this' referring to? And then

Amos 9:11 ¶ In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

seems that there may be either dual aspect to these verses or reference to yet future events. Commentaries mention some variations regarding the word Edom and since my discussions with the teacher of House of Jacob, who looks at the people currently living in the state of Israel as predominantly Edomites this makes for a 'twist' in our discussion. He, teacher of HoJ, also certain that Temple in Jerusalem will be built eventually. This teacher has much more background of Bible verse than me. None of this likely is of any significance to your understanding of these verses but I intend to pursue this matter with open mind as to interpretations of these verses.

There are certainly future blessings, not all are in the past.

Context shows of the Jeremiah prophecy, "It will happen if they will diligently learn the ways of my people, to swear by name, 'as Yahweh lives', but if they will not hear I will pluck them up."

In the Amos prophecy 'this' is what Yahweh does, where there is restoration.

Significant prophecy I say is relevant is Romans 11:25-27, blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, so all Israel will be saved, as it is written, 'The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob, this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.'

We should know that only in Christ are the sins of any taken away, as all were borne by Christ for those in Christ.

While sins and the ultimate results have been borne by Christ, we are to fully turn from sins, and the commandments written by God show sins.

 

[cv5]

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Its quite an interesting choice for a sermon given the situation. Weaved into it, James also looks forward to the final redemption of the Nation Israel the sons of Jacob. One commentator says that since the gentiles are being saved now according to promise, James is saying that the future redemption (the hope of Israel) shall also surely come to pass, since gentiles are being saved then also. Something like that anyways. I am going to have to track down that commentary and refresh my memory.

The Restoration of Israel

11In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

13Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.

14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.

15And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

 

[cv5]

seems that there may be either dual aspect to these verses or reference to yet future events.

That's the way I see it.

 

[cv5]

This is true. I am still studying these verses and there seems to be more to them. i.e. still future events.

And this is possibly indicative that there may be more to these verses. Read answer to FredVB. To me this is peripheral and not matter of salvation. My discussions with a local teacher of House of Jacob started June 2021 based on these verses and this discussion continues till I convert him or he converts me. Very amicable as he is a brother in Christ or very likely so. The discussion likely does not hinge on these verses but they are possibly significant.

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return

I have prayed about this, talked with AG contact, read over comments on this thread and read commentaries at Bible Hub and still not certain but what there may be indicated in conjunction with Amos 9:11-12 and possibly Jer. 12:15 some future prophecy. The highlighted words above seem to be the most significant indicators of some future prophecy. Particularly 'this'. What is 'this' referring to? And then

Amos 9:11 ¶ In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

seems that there may be either dual aspect to these verses or reference to yet future events. Commentaries mention some variations regarding the word Edom and since my discussions with the teacher of House of Jacob, who looks at the people currently living in the state of Israel as predominantly Edomites this makes for a 'twist' in our discussion. He, teacher of HoJ, also certain that Temple in Jerusalem will be built eventually. This teacher has much more background of Bible verse than me. None of this likely is of any significance to your understanding of these verses but I intend to pursue this matter with open mind as to interpretations of these verses.

1) Re: Acts 15:13-18

"Now, this is a difficult portion of scripture, and what I’m going to attempt to do this morning is just to share with you what I see here, the best I can. You all know my limitations, and I know them, and it is very difficult to interpret this passage. Simply - I mean, I should say to be dogmatic about its interpretation, because it could go several different ways, as to what he’s saying, and the use of the Old Testament verses. And so without being strongly dogmatic, let me go ahead and state what I believe in the same way that I state everything, just as if it were true, and you’ll have to trust me.

But it’s a difficult passage. In verse 13, it says, “And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, ‘Men and brethren, hearken to me.’” “Folks, I got something to say.” James is going talk. Now, what he says here is simple on the surface; it’s the interpretation of it, and how it fits the scene, that becomes difficult. Let’s look at verse 14. James speaks. “Simon has declared” – now, Peter just got done talking; that’s just the Hebrew equivalent of Simon, and it’s giving him his name.

“He has just declared that God first did visit the nations” - or the Gentiles – “to take out of them a name - a people for His name.” Now, Simon just told you that God saved Gentiles, that God desired to take out a group of people from the nations. And then he goes on, “And to this agree the words of the prophets.” Now, stop right there. He says, “Look, Peter just gave you a speech, and in it he reminded you that God designed to visit the Gentiles and take out of them a people.” And he began with Cornelius, and they all knew that, and Cornelius’ household.

 

[cv5]

2) Re: Acts 15:13-18

"Now he says, “If you’re all uptight about Gentiles getting saved, have you forgotten that, ‘to this agree the words of the prophets?’” This is not any foreign thing. You see, the Jew always saw everything so provincially; he always saw everything only in terms and frames of Judaism. And the whole concept of Gentile salvation – watch - the Jew saw as Gentiles coming to Judaism, and once they’d become proselytes, then coming to Messiah, you see? And so, the idea of Gentiles just plain old getting saved, without having to become Jews, was something these Judaizers could not understand.

And so, he says, “Peter just told you that God first visited the nations, and took out a name, a people for his name.” Now he says, “To that agree the prophets;” that God was going do that, that He was going to actually save Gentiles, while they were still Gentiles, not having them become Jews first. And of course, the reaction would be, “What prophet ever said that?” And so, he says, “As it is written,” and he quotes Amos 9, verses 11 and 12. Now, he quotes it loosely; he quotes not the Hebrew version, but the Greek version of it, the Septuagint, and he quotes it loosely.

And he adds a word here and there of commentary, as the Spirit of God helps him, to give really what is an explanation of what Amos means. Now watch. “‘After this I’ll return, build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I’ll build again its ruins, and I’ll set it up: That the residue of men’” – now, who’s that? Gentiles – “‘might seek after the Lord, and all the nations, who call upon, or upon whom I call,’ saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.” Now, stop there for a minute, and I’ll try to untangle all this."

 

[cv5]

3) Re: Acts 15:13-18

"This prophecy basically says that Gentiles are going to get saved, verse 17. “The residue of men are going seek the Lord, and all the nations.” What does that mean? That means that whenever this salvation comes, they will be coming from all the nations, all the Gentiles. Now, what does that mean? Listen to this: it means that Gentiles can get saved as Gentiles. They don’t have to become Jews first. You see anything in verse 17 that says, “The residue of men shall seek after Israel? The residue of men shall seek after the nation Israel?”

“And all the nations on whom I call,” is that referring to the fact that these nations have to go through Judaism? No. God says, “I call them directly to myself.” Do you see anything in 17 about circumcision? Do you see anything about keeping the law? Do you see anything about becoming a proselyte? It isn’t there. Yes, verse 16, Israel’s to be established, verse 17, the nations will also be saved, as nations. Now, stay with me on this. This is a millennial prophecy. There’s no question about the fact that this is talking about the future kingdom.

And he’s saying this: there are two parts to the kingdom, Israel’s restoration - we believe that, don’t we? That when the Lord returns and sets up His kingdom, Israel’s going to reign in the kingdom, right? And that’s verse 16. “I’ll return, build the tabernacle of David” - which means the nation of Israel – “I’ll build it again. I’ll set it up.” Israel restored, as Israel. But also in the kingdom the residue of men are going get saved, verse 17. Gentiles are going to be saved as Gentiles, while they’re yet Gentiles.

You see, if Gentiles had to become Jews to get saved, then only Jews could get saved. You got that one? If Gentiles had to become Jews to get saved, then only Jews could get saved, and verse 17 wouldn’t make sense. ’Cause Gentiles couldn’t come to Christ directly, they’d have to go and become Jews first. But the fact that the Jews will be rebuilt, verse 16, and Gentiles will still come, verse 17, indicates the Gentiles in the kingdom will be saved as Gentiles. Now, let me give you a footnote. In the kingdom, Christ is going return and set up His kingdom."

 

[cv5]

4) Re: Acts 15:13-18

"You say, “Well, how did Gentiles get in the kingdom?” Well, remember this. You remember the judgment of the sheep and goats, in Matthew 24 and 25? When Christ returns, He’s going judge the living Gentiles. The Gentiles who have mistreated Israel, given evidence of not believing in Christ, are going be cast into fire. But the sheep - those are the goats. But the sheep Gentiles, the Gentiles who have believed in Messiah, are going to inherit the kingdom; they’re going to come into the kingdom. So, you’ve got living Gentiles going into the kingdom.

Now, those Gentiles are going have children in the kingdom, and of their offspring, thousands, millions of Gentiles are going be born in the kingdom. Now, they’re going have to get saved just like everybody else, by believing in Jesus Christ, right? But it’s going be those Gentiles – incidentally, all of them will not be saved. There’s enough of them to have a worldwide rebellion at the end of the thousand years, remember when Satan is loosed, and leads them in a worldwide rebellion? But many of those Gentiles will be saved.

And watch, people - the point is this is: they will be saved as Gentiles. In the kingdom, and this is so important, just get this, watch - if Gentiles can get saved in the great and glorious kingdom as Gentiles, why are you so hung up that Gentiles are getting saved in the church age as Gentiles? That’s his point, I think. Now, if you’re going try to verify this by some commentary, you won’t find it. But I think this is what he’s saying. That’s the only way I can understand the use of the Amos prophecy."

-John Macarthur

Is Salvation by Law or Grace? Part 2 (gty.org)

 

[FredVB]

The gentiles do not have to do anything to be saved, they that are responding to God's grace through Christ being made known with faith which is with repentance that is made possible are saved just with that, not even doing anything according to God's will, which they are yet to do, when they are already saved. Doing what is of God's will for them is to still be learned, and for us to, while real salvation is not jeopardized, but with it we are being removed from sins, sooner or later, which our salvation is for, along with our restoration to God. And we haven't learned it all yet. We will only with being open still to what we would learn still. We don't even know some things from what we read from the Bible, that are still there for us, and there are things in the world around us that God would have us learn from as well.

The minimal things for gentiles shown from the council in Jerusalem was needed, for gentiles now believers, to start off with, and most among us are not even doing what is needed among those, they were also to still learn more from scriptures taught where they could hear in synagogues on the Sabbath.

 

[Beckie]

David's tabernacle was a tent. Maybe what we today woudl call an awning . It covered the Ark. The mercy seat God in the mists of His people.

 

[FredVB]

David's tabernacle was a tent. Maybe what we today woudl call an awning . It covered the Ark. The mercy seat God in the mists of His people.

I didn't get that in my mind when I was reading it. There were walls of the tent that originally enclosed the place of the ark with the accompanying instruments. And then, for the time before Christ was to come, it was supposed to be thought of as the place where the presence of God could be approached, but that near could only be with proper circumstances within parameters by certain individuals chosen. It represented what was in heaven. Christ being the fulfillment had that no longer needed.

 

[Beckie]

I didn't get that in my mind when I was reading it. There were walls of the tent that originally enclosed the place of the ark with the accompanying instruments. And then, for the time before Christ was to come, it was supposed to be thought of as the place where the presence of God could be approached, but that near could only be with proper circumstances within parameters by certain individuals chosen. It represented what was in heaven. Christ being the fulfillment had that no longer needed.

I agree but believe you are speaking of Moses' tabernacle .

2Sa 6:17 And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.
1Ch 15:1 And David made him houses in the city of David, and prepared a place for the ark of God, and pitched for it a tent.

Michal would not have seen him if he was with in walls.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

If you look at the whole meeting and what they are meeting for and what they are saying it becomes clear

“And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets;

as it is written,( always a quote from the prophets ) After this I will return, And will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, Saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:13-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember Peter had just explained what James begins saying

“And when there had been much disputing, Peter ( simon) rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see the argument is about whether gentiles need to get circumcised and keep the law to be saved. Peters point is no they heard the gospel and believed and received the Holy Ghost like we did “the law has nothing to do with it “ is his point

what that means is a gentile doesn’t have to convert to Judaism to be a Christian but the gospel is for all people not only those of Moses law. The idea of quoting Joel there is like a couple others said to reveal th at gentiles we’re always going to be saved through the gospel through the bekieving isralites being scattered into the world with the gospel

gentiles were always going to be redeemed David’s tabernacle is the question of relevance where is it that God promised to build David a tabernacle and house ?

 

[FredVB]

I agree but believe you are speaking of Moses' tabernacle .

2Sa 6:17 And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.
1Ch 15:1 And David made him houses in the city of David, and prepared a place for the ark of God, and pitched for it a tent.

Michal would not have seen him if he was with in walls.

Yes that was it. I had the idea there was the efforts to continue that, until the temple was finished to be in its place.