What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

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cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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The Pharisees interrogating the blind man--they revile him, because they have no answer to his statement.

Expressing wonderment, the beggar comments: “This is certainly amazing, that you do not know where he is from, and yet he opened my eyes.” The man then makes a logical argument as to whom God hears and approves: “We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is God-fearing and does his will, he listens to this one. From of old it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of one born blind.” This leads to the conclusion: “If this man were not from God, he could do nothing at all.”—John 9:30-33.

Unable to refute the beggar’s reasoning, the Pharisees revile him, saying: “You were altogether born in sin, and yet are you teaching us?” —John 9:34.
Ohhhkay. Regale us if you will with your profound understanding of Luke 16:19-31.

Has the rich man ALREADY, FULLY and by HIMSELF, by his own dying, paid the penalty for his own sins? Or did he start paying AFTER his demise?

Is this yet another fanciful tale to make the wealthy feel crummy?...or a warning of judgement, wrath and punishment to come for the unredeemed with parallels to all of Jesus' other declarations on the matter?
 

Diakonos

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Diakonos,

The proof of what I stated is in Revelation Chapter 1"

"1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. "
I will respond to the comments within our own conversation.
 

Laura798

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Ohhhkay. Regale us if you will with your profound understanding of Luke 16:19-31.

Has the rich man ALREADY, FULLY and by HIMSELF, by his own dying, paid the penalty for his own sins? Or did he start paying AFTER his demise?

Is this yet another fanciful tale to make the wealthy feel crummy?...or a warning of judgement, wrath and punishment to come for the unredeemed with parallels to all of Jesus' other declarations on the matter?

CV5,

All that you say is YOUR own gospel, not our Lords.

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"--Galatians 1:8
 

cv5

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CV5,

All that you say is YOUR own gospel, not our Lords.

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"--Galatians 1:8
I will accept your admission of defeat gracefully.
 

ewq1938

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... but it doesn't ONLY mean that. ;)



^ In this case, they mean "the OPPOSITE of 'taken [G3880]'"... but in the case of when Jesus was "taken" ['took' G3880] by someone (from their perspective) to "negative" ends (i.e. "arrest" and eventual "crucifixion"), it was NOT as a "companion" in the sense you've shown in your point / posts.
That was not a negative taking.




Matthew 27:27 -
27 Then the soldiers of the governor took [G3880] Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers. 28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe. 29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews! 30 And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head. 31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.


[as I said, it depends on WHO is DOING the taking, and TO WHAT ENDS (i.e. the reapers at the time of Jesus' Second Coming to the earth, for example)]

That was not a negative taking.



Not in every definition / usage of G863..

Imagine filling in the following verse with the word "rejection" [or "reject"] (as you suggest):

"Then said Jesus, Let her alone [G863]: against the day of my burying hath she kept this." John 12:7


...or this one:

"And Jesus said, Let her alone [G863]; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me." Mark 14:6


No. These are not saying "REJECT her"
Yes, they are examples of rejection. He is telling them to leave her alone which means for them to reject her from their presence. Sure, it's the mildest use of word but it's still a form of rejection. Why not look at other uses which are stronger examples of rejection? Because you don't want the word to have that meaning.


Mat 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.


Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

Do you want to be taken/accepted or left/rejected/forsaken/omitted/laid aside/put away?

The one taken is rapture and one left is left by Christ because those people are unworthy and should rejected. They will be the ones left in world when wrath of comes. Same situation found here:

There is an old testament example of the one taken and one left:


Exodus 9:19 Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.

The word gather here means the same type of thing as the one "taken" means. All that is not taken from the field shall die from the hail, just as all who were not taken from Sodom died from the hail.



Exodus 9:20 He that feared the word of the LORD among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses:
Exodus 9:21 And he that regarded not the word of the LORD LEFT his servants and his cattle in the field.



check the meaning for the word "left" here:

5800

05800 `azab {aw-zab'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 1594,1595; v

AV - forsake 129, leave 72, leave off 4, faileth 2, fortify 2, help 2,
committeth 1, destitute 1, refuseth 1, surely 1; 215

1) to leave, loose, forsake
1a) (Qal) to leave
1a1) to depart from, leave behind, leave, let alone
1a2) to leave, abandon, forsake, neglect, apostatise
1a3) to let loose, set free, let go, free
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be left to
1b2) to be forsaken
1c) (Pual) to be deserted
2) to restore, repair
2a) (Qal) to repair

"to leave, loose, forsake"
"to depart from, leave behind, leave, let alone"
"abandon, forsake, neglect"
"to be forsaken"
"to be deserted"


compare that to the meaning of the "one left" from the New Testament:

863

863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
TDNT - 1:509,88; v

AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
misc 13; 146

1) to send away
1a) to bid going away or depart
1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
1c) to let go, let alone, let be
1c1) to disregard
1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
1c3) to omit, neglect
1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
1e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one

3a) in order to go to another place
3b) to depart from any one
3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
mutual claims are abandoned
3d) to desert wrongfully
3e) to go away leaving something behind
3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
3i) abandon, leave destitute

left in the field hebrew:

"to leave, loose, forsake"
"to depart from, leave behind, leave, let alone"
"abandon, forsake, neglect"
"to be forsaken"
"to be deserted"

left in the field greek:

"to send away"
"of a husband divorcing his wife"
"to expire"
"to disregard"
"neglect"
"keep no longer"
"to leave on dying"
"leave behind one"
"to desert wrongfully"
"abandon, leave destitute"


both words mean the same thing.


Exodus 9:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch forth thine hand toward heaven, that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt, upon man, and upon beast, and upon every herb of the field, throughout the land of Egypt.
Exodus 9:23 And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt.
Exodus 9:24 So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous, such as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.
Exodus 9:25 And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field.


"the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast"

This hail is a type of Gods judgement, just as the fire was in Lot's day, and just as the flood God sent to destroy the wicked in Noahs day and just as hail shall fall when Christ returns!



Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.



Another witness that at the time of Gods wrath the first thing happening is the one TAKEN from the field is saved, the one LEFT there is destroyed. Gods wrath comes at the 7th trump!
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Every mention of death in this passage is physical death and in the past tense:
“For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 5:6–21)

Why I believe Romans 5:17 is talking about spiritual death is this: God said in Genesis 2:17 that they would "die that same day" if they ate the fruit. Adam didn't die until 930 years later. So Romans 5:17 is not physical death because he didn't physically die the same day he sinned.

Genesis 2:17
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Romans 5:17
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

This passage does not mention the second death. This passage teaches that physical death is a consequence of Adam's sin and our own sin.
I would say that sin doesn't cause physical death for two reasons:

1. Jesus of Nazareth is a sinless person and He died a physical death.

2. The only reason sinners die a physical death is due to not having access to the Tree of Life.

Genesis 3:22
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Could fallen mankind eat from the tree of life and live forever? Sure seems like God suggested that in Genesis 3:22, but He wouldn't allow it.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Why I believe Romans 5:17 is talking about spiritual death is this: God said in Genesis 2:17 that they would "die that same day" if they ate the fruit. Adam didn't die until 930 years later. So Romans 5:17 is not physical death because he didn't physically die the same day he sinned.

Genesis 2:17
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Romans 5:17
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)



I would say that sin doesn't cause physical death for two reasons:

1. Jesus of Nazareth is a sinless person and He died a physical death.

2. The only reason sinners die a physical death is due to not having access to the Tree of Life.

Genesis 3:22
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Could fallen mankind eat from the tree of life and live forever? Sure seems like God suggested that in Genesis 3:22, but He wouldn't allow it.
I almost forgot to tag onto this why, even though spiritual death came through Adam, that Jesus died a physical death to give spiritual life:

Hebrews 9:12-14
12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
 

Laura798

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"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."--Matthew 10:28

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."-- Romans 6:23

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."--John 3:16

Only believers receive the gift of eternal life!

Perish: to cease to exist; suffer complete ruin or destruction.

Astounding. Simply astounding. CV5 gave me a red X when ALL that I quoted was Scripture. :confused:
 

ewq1938

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But what you seem to be doing is denying what is spelled out in black and white in HIS WORD too:

"And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to/unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]." (which latter phrase ALWAYS means the SAME THING in ALL 21x it is used!!<--you deny this fact.)

--Revelation 20:10 (and where v.15 says others [besides these three] are "cast in" also... at this GWTj... which pertains to "the dead," per v.12,13)
Except Rev 20:10 DOES NOT say anything about people being tormented forever does it? You can't take something from one verse and force it into another verse, which is known as Eisegesis. Only one verse says something like it and it is applied only to the beast, FP and the devil. Plus, fire and forever and ever is used in bible non-literally so even that one verse cannot be used to say those three are tortured forever literally.
 

ewq1938

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[re: the word in Rev20:10 "tormented G928"]
Under G928, it says,

"4. universally, to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind) [...], passively, ...Revelation 20:10"



At least now you're acknowledging the "eternity" part. ;) (that's what I said "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" always refers to [ALL 21x it's used]... and what Rev20:10 states regarding "and they shall be tormented unto..." )
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here the Devil is said to be tormented day and night for ever but we can't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal based on other scriptures that use it non-literally:


Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah uses the same language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning and people do pass through that area yet the verse says none shall pass through that area forever and ever. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.

Another example where "forever" does not mean forever:

Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns eternally but that this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal.







Heb_2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil ;

Even the devil will be destroyed.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

He will be devoured by fire, turned to ashes and shall never exist anymore. That's Annihilation.
 

Duckybill

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Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here the Devil is said to be tormented day and night for ever but we can't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal based on other scriptures that use it non-literally:
Was Jesus hallucinating?

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah uses the same language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning and people do pass through that area yet the verse says none shall pass through that area forever and ever. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.

Another example where "forever" does not mean forever:

Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns eternally but that this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal.







Heb_2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil ;

Even the devil will be destroyed.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

He will be devoured by fire, turned to ashes and shall never exist anymore. That's Annihilation.
The wicked will certainly wish they were destroyed! Alas, the terms everlasting, eternal and "forever and ever" are in the NT. Eternal life isn't eternal? Bummer!
 

ewq1938

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Was Jesus hallucinating?
No. Was Luke hallucinating?


The wicked will certainly wish they were destroyed!
God says they will be destroyed. I'll trust what God says over what you say.


Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.


There is only one kind of eternal life, and that is with God as overcomers judged to life. Those judged to death on judgment day, which is called the second death, will not have eternal life in hell or torment. Their punishment is death and that punishment will last for all eternity. They shall not live eternally in agony because they shall not have eternal life of any kind.

Look at how many scriptures refute the idea of eternal life in torturous hell fire:



"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28

"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:20

Judgment is a decision to reward or punish someone. The judgement/punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 21:8), and that judgement/punishment is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2). So, eternal punishment is an eternal death.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Except Rev 20:10 DOES NOT say anything about people being tormented forever does it?
"the beast" (per Rev13:5-7 paralleling Dan7:20-24,8,11--a person!) and "the false prophet" (also a person!) are said of them "and THEY shall be tormented day and night unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"--a phrase that always means the same thing in all 21x of its occurrence

(I listed the 21 verses out, where this phrase is used, in Post #230)
 

Duckybill

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No. Was Luke hallucinating?
No, because Luke agreed with Jesus. The fire is everlasting!

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
God says they will be destroyed. I'll trust what God says over what you say.


Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
OT NEVER overrules NT!
There is only one kind of eternal life, and that is with God as overcomers judged to life. Those judged to death on judgment day, which is called the second death, will not have eternal life in hell or torment. Their punishment is death and that punishment will last for all eternity. They shall not live eternally in agony because they shall not have eternal life of any kind.
"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

Luke 16:22-28 (NKJV)
22 The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'

And don't say it's a parable. It's not. There is ZERO proof that it's a parable.
Look at how many scriptures refute the idea of eternal life in torturous hell fire:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.
OT NEVER overrules NT!
"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.
Death does not mean "cease to exist". Adam and Eve died the day they sinned but they were still alive.
"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28
"OT NEVER overrules NT!"
"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13
"Everlasting destruction", a process that NEVER ends.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NKJV)
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:20

Judgment is a decision to reward or punish someone. The judgement/punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 21:8), and that judgement/punishment is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2). So, eternal punishment is an eternal death.
Death NEVER means "cease to exist" in the Bible. Just as Adam and Eve died but were still alive, so are the unGodly.

1 Timothy 5:6 (NKJV)
6 But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here the Devil is said to be tormented day and night for ever but we can't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal based on other scriptures that use it non-literally:
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
When I look at the Greek translation of Isaiah 34:10, here's what I see (instead):

--"unto the aion [singular] chronos [singular]"

--"unto genea [plural]"

--"unto chronos [singular] polys [many / much / great; singular]"


IOW, I do NOT see the phrase used in Rev20:10 "unto the AGES [PLURAL] of the AGES [PLURAL]" (which is used in the NT 21x and ALWAYS means the SAME THING!)

Isaiah uses the same language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning and people do pass through that area yet the verse says none shall pass through that area forever and ever. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.
...even though distinct words are used, as I just pointed out?!?!

Um, no.

Another example where "forever" does not mean forever:

Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
What I see in the Greek translation of Ex21:6 is this (instead):

--"unto the age [singular]"


IOW, I do NOT see the phrase "unto the AGES [PLURAL] of the AGES [PLURAL]" as IS used in Rev20:10... (and in 21 verses total, in the NT, where it ALWAYS means the SAME THING!)

Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.
Except the phrase I'm pointing out used 21x in the NT (including here in Rev20:10) ALWAYS refers to the SAME THING

May the readers check out those 21 verses LISTED in Post #230 (page 12), to see for themselves that this is NOT merely "exaggeration" being employed.
 

ewq1938

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"the beast" (per Rev13:5-7 paralleling Dan7:20-24,8,11--a person!) and "the false prophet" (also a person!) are said of them "and THEY shall be tormented day and night unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"--a phrase that always means the same thing in all 21x of its occurrence

(I listed the 21 verses out, where this phrase is used, in Post #230)

You dodged my question. Please answer question asked of you:

Except Rev 20:10 DOES NOT say anything about people being tormented forever does it?
 

ewq1938

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OT NEVER overrules NT!
Nothing in NT differs with what the OT says about how wicked will be no more.



"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"
I told you many times is not lake of fire. Stop confusing two places. This just shows you are confused about this whole topic.




Death does not mean "cease to exist".
It does when you die in a fire God has created.



"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28

"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:20
 

Duckybill

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Aug 16, 2021
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You dodged my question. Please answer question asked of you:

Except Rev 20:10 DOES NOT say anything about people being tormented forever does it?
Clearly referring to people:

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: