What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[ewq1938]

Nope. Eternal punishment is the correct doctrine.

Eternal punishment is the correct doctrine but the bible says the punishment is death not torture so you are wrong.

Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[cv5]

Do you see a man who is hasty in his words? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue
but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they
speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person
out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

Judgment is only for the unredeemed the unsaved the unjustified.

 

[cv5]

John_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life ; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

"shall not see life" means will not be alive.



Universalism -all people (saved and unsaved) will see life in the New Heaven and new Earth for all eternity--FALSE DOCTRINE

Eternal torment -all unsaved people will see life in torment (lake of fire) for all eternity--FALSE DOCTRINE

Annihilationism - all unsaved people will not see life as Christ said.--TRUE DOCTRINE


Only Annihilation matches what Christ taught in John_3:36.


The first death is only death of the physical body. The second death is the death of body, soul and spirit. If one is saved, then the body, soul and spirit are preserved but the unsaved will not have theirs preserved because they will be dead and burned up which destroys them completely.


fate of the unsaved:


Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell .


fate of the saved:


1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ .



The Hebrew word for “fire” is esh. It is spelled with the Hebrew letters, aleph and sheen. Aleph means an ox and denotes strength. Sheen means teeth and denotes consuming or devouring. Thus, “fire” literally means a strong devourer. Hence, our God is a consuming fire (Deut. 4:24; Heb. 12:29).


The bible promotes Annihilationism. Eternal torment is a false doctrine which violates the truth of John 3:36.

Who am I to believe? John the Baptist or you...???

 

[Runningman]

A parry without a riposte? It's a shame people don't know how to wield the sword.
The art is truly lost if our arguments are reduced to "I won't respond, but you are wrong". Whether you address it or not, what I have written is fixed unless it is uprooted by the Word (Matt 15:13). Your silence is telling (Lk 21:15).

I have standards for discussions, too. For example, if I just proved to you that Adam didn't physically die the day he sinned then we can comfortably rule out the sin being a leading cause of physical death. By deductive reasoning, we see that Adam died spiritually. If you won't dignify that then we can't find common ground to base a rational discussion on.

On the contrary, I have looked into this more closely than many.

"rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim 2:15)​

If you had used clear passages of Scripture instead of some vague reference to the tree of life (which you admitted to not comprehending in post# 726), then I wouldn't have to get so technical to expose an error. Assumptions don't support arguments, premises do; You have to establish common ground (premises) before making a sound argument for a controversial position. For this same reason, I don't discuss much eschatology with an individual unless the identity of Israel is first agreed on. This is true for all doctrines. The fundamentals must first be agreed on before a meaningful discussion of the fringe doctrines can take place.

I trust I don't need to repeat the same verses I already posted to you in my previous post, so I'll use mostly use my own commentary.

Adam lost immortality when his access to the tree of life was revoked, not when he sinned as you alleged.

How do I know Adam did not die "in the day that thou eatest thereof?" Because him and Eve did not have Seth until Adam was 130 years old (Genesis 5:3) and that was after they were expelled from the garden of Eden.

The tree of life being the source of immortality isn't fringe doctrine. The tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good an evil are some of the most well-known trees in Biblical literature and even unbelievers are vaguely aware of them.

Genesis establishes the doctrine for what the tree of life does: gives immortality.

Revelation 2:7 confirms that believers will have access to the tree of life in God's paradise.

Rev. 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Does it make sense to use a verse that fits other contexts (that helps your position), but doesn't fit the context you took the verse from? Why would you appeal to it at? To use a verse correctly, it must agree with its original context...THEN it may be tested to see if it is compatible with other contexts. All the NT writers used their OT quotes in their original contexts to convey their more-developed doctrines to the church. This is because an application of a verse in its original context will never contradict its application in another context. Doctrines don't exist independently; they are extensions of other doctrines.

The writers of the Bible never contradict other passages therefore it isn't inappropriate to incorporate instances about Adam from Genesis to instances Adam in Romans. The writers surely knew that Adam didn't physically die when he sinned and they wouldn't reverse that position later: that's a fair assumption.

The important thing you should be seeing here is that spiritual death does not equal to separation from God, as eternal tormenters claim, but rather spiritual death means death just like God states as a fact in Genesis. How do I know? Because God didn't abandon mankind after they sinned - ipso facto - spiritual death is not separation from God.

In fact, the only one who said that Adam did not die was the devil (Genesis 3:4). So do you agree with God when He said "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17) or do you agree with the devil who said Adam wouldn't die?

 

[Laura798]

John_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life ; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

"shall not see life" means will not be alive.



Universalism -all people (saved and unsaved) will see life in the New Heaven and new Earth for all eternity--FALSE DOCTRINE

Eternal torment -all unsaved people will see life in torment (lake of fire) for all eternity--FALSE DOCTRINE

Annihilationism - all unsaved people will not see life as Christ said.--TRUE DOCTRINE


Only Annihilation matches what Christ taught in John_3:36.


The first death is only death of the physical body. The second death is the death of body, soul and spirit. If one is saved, then the body, soul and spirit are preserved but the unsaved will not have theirs preserved because they will be dead and burned up which destroys them completely.


fate of the unsaved:


Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell .


fate of the saved:


1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ .



The Hebrew word for “fire” is esh. It is spelled with the Hebrew letters, aleph and sheen. Aleph means an ox and denotes strength. Sheen means teeth and denotes consuming or devouring. Thus, “fire” literally means a strong devourer. Hence, our God is a consuming fire (Deut. 4:24; Heb. 12:29).


The bible promotes Annihilationism. Eternal torment is a false doctrine which violates the truth of John 3:36.

I'm starting to think we are in some sort of Alice in Wonderland simulation....for Christians.

Queen of Hearts x 2

 

[Gardenias]

Good lord, Gardenias! If someone had posted they just threw their child off a 5th floor balcony and then said "Pray for me" --would you give them a heart? If you are going to pray then take 2 seconds and type "I'll be praying". If you give it a heart obviously it looks like you are in agreement with what they said!

You have a cold cold heart of uncompassion!
Of course I would pray for that one and I will be praying that the Lord change YOUR heart of stone to one of flesh.
Only BC I don't want you to burn eternally,everlasting,forever and ever in conscious torment.

Furthermore youre also a buttinsky,was I talking to you or rayzor.
It did not requite any ignorant input from someone who is challenged and lacks understanding!

 

[Gardenias]

Do you see a man who is hasty in his words? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue
but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they
speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person
out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

Ecc.10:11 Surely the SERPENT will bite without enchantment and a BABBLER is no better.

 

[Gardenias]

No, Gardenias--did you start that thread?

You beat me to it.
Who's your familiar?

 

[ewq1938]

Who am I to believe? John the Baptist or you...???

John doesn't believe in eternal torture so the choice is to believe in John and me, or you. I'll stick with John and rest of bible which espouses Annihilationism.

 

[Laura798]

You have a cold cold heart of uncompassion!
Of course I would pray for that one and I will be praying that the Lord change YOUR heart of stone to one of flesh.
Only BC I don't want you to burn eternally,everlasting,forever and ever in conscious torment.

Furthermore youre also a buttinsky,was I talking to you or rayzor.
It did not requite any ignorant input from someone who is challenged and lacks understanding!

I have a cold heart? You have been consistently rude --and your wishing myself and other Christians would burn eternally not to mention millions upon millions of others? As they say when you point one finger you have three fingers pointing back at you.

ps there is no understanding needed--we all know what the heart emoji means.

 

[Magenta]

John doesn't believe in eternal torture so the choice is to believe in John and me,
or you. I'll stick with John and rest of bible which espouses Annihilationism.

Do you not know that from antiquity,
since man was placed on the earth,
the triumph of the wicked has been brief
and the joy of the godless momentary?
Though his arrogance reaches the heavens,
and his head touches the clouds,
he will perish forever, like his own dung.

 

[Runningman]

Please offend but learn,Deep down people get angry for one of two reasons because the speaker is being good or because the speaker is being evil.,,,.Jesus is the devil,,,how do i know this? because he became sin also he is the the first to die before the foundation of the world.He is also the first to die to sin = pride and pride really is the love that is the worship of self even at the expense of all eles. yea i'm not right with god so if it's ok with you and god fast for me.

Forget everything you just said.

Today is the day of your salvation:
2 Corinthians 6:2
2For He says:
“In an acceptable time I have heard you,
And in the day of salvation I have helped you.”
Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

God loves you:
John 3:16
16For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Romans 5:8
8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

All are sinners:
Romans 3:10
10As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;

Romans 3:23
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

God's remedy for sin:
Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 1:12
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

1 Corinthians 15:3-4
3For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

All may be saved now:
Revelation 3:20
20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Romans 10:13
13For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Do you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and rose again three days later? If yes, call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, confessing your sin, and you will be saved.

 

[rayzor]

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


These DO NOT exist in NHNE:


1. death

2. sorrow

3. crying

4. pain


If eternal torment was true, then all those things would still exist. Eternal torment is a false doctrine which violates the truth of Rev 21:4.

The bible says so beside look the lakers where first misgen then the city of angles and they had peo

I have heard it said that there is no accounting for people's tastes...

Saying Jesus is the devil is ... quite wrong in many ways.

He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no
truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Contrast with Jesus saying, "I am the way, the Truth, and the life."

There is no congruency nor harmonizing those two statements.

Will the bible says Jesus became sin, how is that different then being the devil? 2 Corinthians 5:21

 

[rayzor]

It's ah.. not letting me edit and did not put things in the right place it's done that like 2 times i wonder why?

 

[Laura798]

You have a cold cold heart of uncompassion!
Of course I would pray for that one and I will be praying that the Lord change YOUR heart of stone to one of flesh.
Only BC I don't want you to burn eternally,everlasting,forever and ever in conscious torment.

Furthermore youre also a buttinsky,was I talking to you or rayzor.
It did not requite any ignorant input from someone who is challenged and lacks understanding!

Gardenias--you don't have to pray for fellow believers who at times sin "not to burn for eternity... it doesn't actually work that way--all believers are saved by repenting and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."--Matthew 7:3-5

For my part I apologize for my sarcasm and I will do my best to bury the hatchet, Gardenias as there are people that read these posts that may be considering Christianity--if they see us quarreling it won't be very appealing to them, I suspect.

2 "I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord. 3 Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life."--Phillipians 4:2

 

[Magenta]

Man is mortal.

So the LORD said, "My Spirit won't remain with human beings forever, because they're truly mortal."

For what mortal man has heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the fire like we did, and lived?

Then Asa cried out to the Lord his God: “Lord, there is no one besides You to help the mighty and those without strength. Help us, Lord our God, for we depend on You, and in Your name we have come against this large army. Yahweh, You are our God. Do not let a mere mortal hinder You.”

Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Lo, the happiness of mortal man, God doth reprove him: And the chastisement of the Mighty despise not,

“Yes, I know it is true. But how can a mortal man be right before God?

“Behold, I will not make you afraid or terrified of me [for I am only mortal
and not God],Nor should any pressure from me weigh heavily upon you.

Remember to magnify his awesome activities, about which mortal man has sung.

You, indeed, have made my days short in length, and my life span as
nothing in Your sight. Yes, every mortal man is only a vapor. Selah

In God, whose word I praise, in God I put my trust. I will not fear what mortal man can do to me.

Mortal men ate the food of angels; he sent provision to them in abundance.

Take note of my brief lifespan! Why do you make all people so mortal?

Thou makest mortal man to return to dust, and sayest, Return, children of men.

Mortal man! as grass are his days, As a flower of the field so he flourisheth;

LORD, what are human beings, that you should care about them, or mortal man, that you should think about him?

Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.

Treasures gained by wickedness do not profit, but righteousness delivers from mortal danger.

Your nakedness will be exposed, and your disgrace will also
be seen. I'll take vengeance, and I will spare no mortal.

Moreover, the thing which the king demands is difficult, and there is no one else who
could declare it to the king except gods, whose dwelling place is not with mortal flesh.

He has made it clear to you, mortal man, what is good and what the LORD is requiring from you to
act with justice, to treasure the LORD's gracious love, and to walk humbly in the company of your God.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up
Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Brothers, this is what I mean: Mortal bodies cannot inherit the kingdom
of God, and what decays cannot inherit what does not decay.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

for you have been born again [that is, reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose] not of seed which is perishable but [from that which is] imperishable and immortal, that is, through the living and everlasting word of God.

For the Messiah also suffered for sins once for all, an innocent person for the guilty, so that he
could bring you to God. He was put to death in a mortal body but was brought to life by the Spirit,

That is why the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that
they might be judged as men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also
the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Job 19:25-27a

 

[Duckybill]

So this is your logic: If someone believes in something that JW's also believe in then that makes you a JW. The JW's believe that Jesus died and resurrected and YOU believe that also so I guess that makes you a satanic JW! That's some great logic you got!

Why are you upset that I asked if you're JW?

 

[Duckybill]

No. He rendered them extinct, just like He will do at the Judgment.
The bible says the wicked will be DESTROYED and i believe it--this isn't rocket science. You all twist your words into pretzels to fit your pagan myth of eternal torment. As I said before, the Protestants got this false doctrine from the Roman Catholics who got it from the pagans

Scripture to test Scripture--the New Testament says DEATH is the punishment for sin. Eternal fire/punishment/destruction --all mean the same thing--the eternal bit means there is no coming back from it.' The Old Testament consistently says the wicked will be DESTROYED when using literal language--not talking about the worm dieth not and the fire...etc that is oft used....which is FIGURATIVE.

The two opposites Eternal Life vs Eternal Destruction

"Eternal", Everlasting", Forever and Ever". You don't believe in eternal life? Bummers!

 

[Magenta]

There are zero Bible verses that say the soul of man is immortal.

It is said by some that man was made immortal because he was made in
the image of God, even though Scripture itself says God alone is immortal.

(Then they say they believe the Bible literally when clearly they do not.)

Such a claim as God imparting His immutable qualities falls flat on its face when
it is obvious that God has other characteristics such as omnipotence, omniscience,
and omnipresence; human beings have never possessed any of these characteristics.

The immortal soul belief did not originate from the Scriptures, but entered
Judeo-Christian thought through contact with pagan Greek philosophy.

*******************************************************************************************

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of
imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Laura798]

The bible says so beside look the lakers where first misgen then the city of angles and they had peo

Will the bible says Jesus became sin, how is that different then being the devil? 2 Corinthians 5:21

Rayzor, your thoughts seemed to be disordered--when you write it's as if someone else is typing alongside you on the keyboard.

If a pig is completely covered in mud--is the pig now mud? Jesus is called the 'spotless lamb' who takes upon the sins of the world. Spotless means perfection/without flaw.

How is sin the devil? Satan is a person. Sin is an action. Sin is anything that is done that is against God's moral law.

We know that Satan is the enemy of Christ. How can Christ then be Satan? Are you able to see the incongruity of your statement?

A better rendering is, "For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ."