What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[Duckybill]

Thank you! Notice the words I colored in red from your quote.

- "shall not see life..."

- "wrath of God abides"

Abide - to place; to remain; to stay; to not depart; to continue to be present (strong's). This means God's wrath is "currently upon" the one who doesn't believe. Hmm....I wonder what this "wrath" could be . Couldn't possibly be what is being described throughout the ENTIRE CHAPTER, that would be too easy. It's gotta be harder, requiring mental gymnastics.


John 3 (doctrinal statements)
3 ... Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

5...Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 ...Ye must be born again.

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Nope! Can't trust it. It's too clear and concise to mean what it actually says. It must be figurative.

The wrath of God can't ABIDE on those who "cease to exist". You've been duped!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Read the context surrounding Genesis 34:30 (where the word "destroyed [H8045]" is used):

"And Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, Ye have troubled me to make me to stink among the inhabitants of the land, among the Canaanites and the Perizzites: and I being few in number, they shall gather themselves together against me, and slay me; and I shall be destroyed H8045 I and my house."

Does Jacob *mean* annihilated in the lake of fire at the GWTj point?? No he does not.


No, he means "from off the face of this earth" where he and they presently existed (at the time).

...likewise in the following verse:

Isaiah 26:14 -

They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed H8045 them, and made all their memory to perish." [this means, "the memory of them" among those who do still exist on the earth, not their OWN "memories"]

means "from off the face of this earth" where he and they presently existed (at the time).

... not referring to the "GWTj" point (which they will face also, yet future)

 

[JTB]

J

Also, a true Christian would not say that--being a Christian means we trust in God now and in His future promises.

Really. I hear a lot of true Christians agonizing over their lives. Agonizing over the attacks and suffering that come on a daily basis with little to no intercession from God. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say they can't get a job that lets them feed their family. Of course the 'Christian' response is to quote the scripture about how God feeds the birds, but what does that really mean? Are these Christians supposed to go pluck insects out of the garden to feed their kids? Trust in God to feed us while we starve ... just how far do you think a person will go with that?

And apologies---I did not notice that you wrote 'believers' in your original post--nearly everyone asks what if the unbeliever would rather just cease to exist. This is the first to hear it the other way around.

Take for example the faithful believer who can't get a job

Oh dear JTB! A believer would never in a million years choose annihilation over eternal life with our Creator in paradise! We can’t even imagine how wonderful and awesome it will be!

Yet I've heard several question that very thing in the last couple years

 

[Yahshua]

Here we go folks. Opinions? Looking for rebuttals from the annihilationists.....if that is even possible....

Act 7:59
And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”


Luk 8:55
Then her spirit returned, and she arose immediately. And He commanded that she be given something to eat.


Mat 27:50
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

Zec 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Job 32:8
But there is a spirit in man,
And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.

Psa 31:5
Into Your hand I commit my spirit;
You have redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Psa 146:4
His spirit departs, he returns to his earth;
In that very day his plans perish.

Ecc 3:21
Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?

Ecc 12:7
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Isa 38:16
O Lord, by these things men live;
And in all these things is the life of my spirit;
So You will restore me and make me live.

Isa 42:5
Thus says God the LORD,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:

Mat 26:41
“Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

...And you are looking for rebuttals of what scriptures say?

These are great! I can post a bunch of passages about "bread" if you'd like. But what exactly are you trying to prove with these passages? That spirit exists? Or are you trying to prove that man...man from the 1st Adam, who's NOT born again...is inherently spirit? Because John 3:6...

 

[Duckybill]

Adam and Eve died but still alive. Lazarus and the rich man died but were still alive.

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Amen Jesus!

 

[Yahshua]

The wrath of God can't ABIDE on those who "cease to exist". You've been duped!

It's really basic comprehension at this point. It's your own quoted verse that you're refusing to believe now. The wrath of God ABIDES - present tense - on those who do not believe in the Messiah because they're not "born again" of "the Spirit". It even used the word translated as "already" with the word "condemned". Already means "forgone conclusion".

It's the state of mortality; the eventuality of perishing one day. That's the wrath of God. That's the condemnation.

 

[Yahshua]

Adam and Eve died but still alive. Lazarus and the rich man died but were still alive.

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Amen Jesus!

Then The Almighty Lied? Yah Forbid!

Where is Adam right now?

 

[iTheophilus]

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

- Revelation 20:10-11 (NKJV)​

Ah! and now we come to Dante's favorite verse, in which he gave us graphic descriptions (complete with illustrations) of an everlasting Burning Inferno known as Dante's Inferno, where poor souls who did not repent weep and wail and writhe in agony and torment forever and ever while the saints, sitting on fluffy clouds with their harps, look down on them and sing the refrain "Burn, suckers, burn; we told you so! Now ain’t that a glorious concept of heaven? I think not! and it ain’t so. Firstly, the Bible repeatedly states that the wicked's fate is to PERISH, to die the second death, to cease to exist.

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

- Matthew 10:28 (NKJV)

0h, and yeah; we just read that Satan will be tortured in hell for all eternity. We’ll, not really; because we read an expression (idiom) from another language that was utterly lost in translation into English. The Greek word basanos, from which we obtain the word "basis," is the origin of the word "torment" in verse 10. (through the notion of going to the bottom). However, the entire term merely implies that Satan will be consumed, debased, and extinguished day and night (for all eternity), forever and ever (to be no more).

 

[Duckybill]

It's really basic comprehension at this point. It's your own quoted verse that you're refusing to believe now. The wrath of God ABIDES - present tense - on those who do not believe in the Messiah because they're not "born again" of "the Spirit". It even used the word translated as "already" with the word "condemned". Already means "forgone conclusion".

It's the state of mortality; the eventuality of perishing one day. That's the wrath of God. That's the condemnation.

Amen Jesus, he doesn't have a clue!

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Jocund]

OK boys and girls (who happen to be annihilationists)....

What is your take on 1Samuel 28:14-19.......Saul, Samuel, and medium of Endor?

"Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
Then Samuel goes on to ACCURATELY prophesy the fate of Saul

I haven't kept up to date with this thread, but what does the witch of Endor have to do with the concept of annihilation vs eternal torment in the Lake of Fire?

What does the rich man in Hades have to do with the Lake of Fire?

If Satan, the beast and false prophet are tormented for eternity, why would that necessarily have bearing on the fate of others that enter the Lake of Fire?

Since the term used for "eternity" also translates to "perpetuity", how can we be sure that when heaven and earth fade away in Revelation that the Lake of Fire doesn't also fade away as well?

The conversation of annihilation vs unending torment usually comes to more or less a draw as scripture can be consistent with either model.

For the sake of prodding a question your way, there is a purification that happens to those that are saved. We see many passages dealing with impurity being separated or burned away. Do these unsaved parts of us become annihilated? Or do they become eternally separated from God (eternally tormented)?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I feel some of us here keep forgetting that our Father is a consuming fire, as stated in the last verse of Hebrews chapter 12. He will annihilate Satan and turn him into ash for all eternity. Does this imply that he will continue to burn indefinitely? Obviously not.

I didn't forget...

...I covered the phrase found in Hebrews 12:29 way back in Post #388 (page 20), and its relation to both Deut4:24 and Deut 9:3 where the word "[Strong's] H398" is used... but not in the sense that you are suggesting.

See that post and the link I placed there re: H398 :

Post #388 - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4679226

 

[Duckybill]

Then The Almighty Lied? Yah Forbid!

Where is Adam right now?

Have you never read Genesis? Oh my.

Genesis 2:16-17 (NKJV)
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Adam died the day he sinned exactly as God said he would. He died but was still alive. Try reading Genesis.

 

[cv5]

I wonder how the audience is doing at this point? My guess is that they can see the picture very clearly by now.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Since the term used for "eternity" also translates to "perpetuity", how can we be sure that when heaven and earth fade away in Revelation that the Lake of Fire doesn't also fade away as well?

See the LISTING of the phrase used in Rev20:10 (used 21x and NEVER meaning a "LIMITED" time-frame) in Post #230 -

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4677486

the phrase being: "UNTO THE AGES [PLURAL] OF THE AGES [PLURAL]"


(which is also stated after the setting is told of in verse 11)

 

[Yahshua]

Have you never read Genesis? Oh my.

Genesis 2:16-17 (NKJV)
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Adam died the day he sinned exactly as God said he would. He died but was still alive. Try reading Genesis.

Where is he NOW? Do you believe he is still alive somewhere or does he no longer exist?

 

[cv5]

I didn't forget...

...I covered the phrase found in Hebrews 12:29 way back in Post #388 (page 20), and its relation to both Deut4:24 and Deut 9:3 where the word "[Strong's] H398" is used... but not in the sense that you are suggesting.

See that post and the link I placed there re: H398 :

Post #388 - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4679226

Guesswork versus scholarship......?

 

[cv5]

...And you are looking for rebuttals of what scriptures say?

These are great! I can post a bunch of passages about "bread" if you'd like. But what exactly are you trying to prove with these passages? That spirit exists? Or are you trying to prove that man...man from the 1st Adam, who's NOT born again...is inherently spirit? Because John 3:6...

But we are not talking about bread. Anyways, your guess is not as good as mine......

 

[Duckybill]

Where is he NOW? Do you believe he is still alive somewhere or does he no longer exist?

Why are you being totally EVASIVE? God said Adam would die the day Adam sinned. Adam sinned. Adam died. Adam was still alive! Have you read Genesis?

 

[Yahshua]

But we are not talking about bread. Anyways, your guess is not as good as mine......

lol, neither are we talking about "spirit existing". Is the 1st man spirit (from heaven) or flesh (from the dust of the earth)?

 

[Yahshua]

Why are you being totally EVASIVE? God said Adam would die the day Adam sinned. Adam sinned. Adam died. Adam was still alive! Have you read Genesis?

( evades my question but then accuses me of evasion...)

You believe in the eternal torment of the immortal soul, right? So according to Genesis Adam died. So I'm asking you, where is Adam now?