What Changed?
- Thread starter BillyBob
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PaulThomson said:
What in the text and context of Eph. 4:5 leads you to conclude that the one baptism is baptism by the Holy Spirit of a believing hearer into the body of Christ rather than baptism in water into the death and resurrection of Christ?
Is "One is the outward manifestation of the inward reality" stated in the text or context?
What in the text and context of Eph. 4:5 leads you to conclude that the one baptism is baptism by the Holy Spirit of a believing hearer into the body of Christ rather than baptism in water into the death and resurrection of Christ?
Is "One is the outward manifestation of the inward reality" stated in the text or context?
Water Baptism is to the New Covenant what Circumcision was to the Abrahamic and Old Covenants. So, yes...it's a religious ritual requiring obedience. It's the New Covenant way of believers expressing publicly their faith in their Lord and Savior by identifying with his death, burial and resurrection.
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I cannot help but wonder at the purpose of someone to be here when they constantly challenge
the main and plain things of Scripture, as they add to what is said (while repeatedly denying
they are doing so), take away from what is said, and asking us to ponder such absurdities as
God consulting with unborn zygotes as to when and where they should enter life as we know it.
the main and plain things of Scripture, as they add to what is said (while repeatedly denying
they are doing so), take away from what is said, and asking us to ponder such absurdities as
God consulting with unborn zygotes as to when and where they should enter life as we know it.
Cult members do that a lot. Just sayin'.... They just cannot take scripture at face value -- not that all scripture can be taken as such per se, but the vast majority of it can. This is usually a sign that they have some off-the-wall theological agenda which they need to persevere and defend at all costs.
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Everything changed when Christ came!
John 1:33-34
I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”
John 1:33-34
I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”
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Everything in the text and context points to Spirit baptism.
There is one body, [here is your first clue]
and one Spirit, [here is your second clue]
...one hope of your calling;
One Lord, [here is your third clue]
one faith,
one baptism, [Spirit baptism]
One God
and Father of all,
who is above all,
and through all,
and in you all.
The Bible is crystal clear that it is Christ who baptizes WITH the Holy Spirit. This is the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is internal. The Bible is also quite clear that the Holy Spirit baptizes believers INTO the Body of Christ. The Bible is also quite clear that water baptism does not save anyone. But there are other passages which speak of water baptism and its importance.
There is one body, [here is your first clue]
and one Spirit, [here is your second clue]
...one hope of your calling;
One Lord, [here is your third clue]
one faith,
one baptism, [Spirit baptism]
One God
and Father of all,
who is above all,
and through all,
and in you all.
The Bible is crystal clear that it is Christ who baptizes WITH the Holy Spirit. This is the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is internal. The Bible is also quite clear that the Holy Spirit baptizes believers INTO the Body of Christ. The Bible is also quite clear that water baptism does not save anyone. But there are other passages which speak of water baptism and its importance.
To mature as a person one does not just invent more and more truth claims and propositions about reality. At a certain stage of life a person has to realise that understanding reality is not just certainty about truth clams and propositions, but is more about relationships, and the healthiest view of reality is one that does not hold on to propositions and truth claims that are unnecessarily producing rifts in relationships.
This means that the truth claims and propositions we have collected over time need to be re-evaluated and the faulty ones, the ones that lack real proof but are divisive, must be culled; and our focus shifts from acquiring and defending propositions to our embracing uncertainty where there is genuine uncertainty and building genuinely truthful relationships with things, people and God. It leads to admitting other opinions and options may have some merit; that other perspectives may have some merit; that knowing how to behave like Christ is more important than knowing theological systems that claim to describe Christ, and that experiencing godly relationships with God and people is more important than merely gathering information about God and people.
Many here think they have things figured out propositionally and that that qualifies them to arbitrate on what is and is not true Christianity. They are like teenagers who have passed out of high school and think they know enough to counsel couples on healthy marriage and child-rearing; to counsel politicians on national policy direction; and the elderly on what getting old is all about. We need to develop the epistemic humility to honestly admit the limits of our knowledge and is willing to critically checks the foundations of our own worldview and sets that in order, before we presume to impose those on others, which disrespects the other person and divides over words and phrases that have no actual correspondence to anything real.
This means that the truth claims and propositions we have collected over time need to be re-evaluated and the faulty ones, the ones that lack real proof but are divisive, must be culled; and our focus shifts from acquiring and defending propositions to our embracing uncertainty where there is genuine uncertainty and building genuinely truthful relationships with things, people and God. It leads to admitting other opinions and options may have some merit; that other perspectives may have some merit; that knowing how to behave like Christ is more important than knowing theological systems that claim to describe Christ, and that experiencing godly relationships with God and people is more important than merely gathering information about God and people.
Many here think they have things figured out propositionally and that that qualifies them to arbitrate on what is and is not true Christianity. They are like teenagers who have passed out of high school and think they know enough to counsel couples on healthy marriage and child-rearing; to counsel politicians on national policy direction; and the elderly on what getting old is all about. We need to develop the epistemic humility to honestly admit the limits of our knowledge and is willing to critically checks the foundations of our own worldview and sets that in order, before we presume to impose those on others, which disrespects the other person and divides over words and phrases that have no actual correspondence to anything real.
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What if the "one baptism" is "baptism into Christ", and all the baptisms that are into Christ are one baptism: baptism into Christ through the Holy Spirit, baptism into Christ through water, baptism into Christ through suffering (fire) for His name's sake. What if receiving any one of these is like receiving any one of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit: you receive one, you sign up to receive all three when you sign up for one.
How would it be if I received Jesus but refused to receive the Holy Spirit? or I received the Father but refused to receive Jesus? Or received the Spirit but refused to receive Jesus?
How is it if I receive water baptism but despise Holy Spirit baptism or suffering for His sake. Or I receive the Holy Spirit baptism but refuse water baptism or suffering for His sake?
How would it be if I received Jesus but refused to receive the Holy Spirit? or I received the Father but refused to receive Jesus? Or received the Spirit but refused to receive Jesus?
How is it if I receive water baptism but despise Holy Spirit baptism or suffering for His sake. Or I receive the Holy Spirit baptism but refuse water baptism or suffering for His sake?
Jesus is quoted multiple times telling us about the Spirit of Truth revealing things to us that can only be known by the Spirit. Paul affirms this many times also. This is part of what you and your cronies keep denying. I can only assume such verses do not apply to you:
Matthew 13:16-17
Matthew 13:16-17
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