What do you believe and why do you believe it?
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I understand. And you are right people are the problem. You see us as people we all fall short of Gods standard, or what He refers to as righteousness. Gods righteousness is the morality we all want and expect from others, but if we are not living according to Gods Word we get the world we are all living in today.
Jesus Christ is the answer to our problems. He changes our minds. He gives us a new heart and a new Spirit. That leads us to understanding and teaches us how to live. It causes conviction in our Spirit if we do wrong, so there is a level of restraint on the believer to do good. It is the guage to our conscience between right and wrong.
Not all Christians are born again. Some are still on the journey to becoming born again. Meaning they have not yet recieved the Holy Spirit or maybe they have not yet encountered God. So not all Christians are on the same Spiritual maturity level. Doctrines can also hinder growth or cause division amongst us.
It is when we encounter God that our lives change. (JIMBONE shared an excellent testimony of his encounter) these encounters as you yourself encountered are supernatural and cannot be explained by human intellect. It is foolishness to the "wise".
It is these experiences that devolpe a relationship with God and a knowing that He is real. That is the essence of faith, because we cannot see God but we know that He is real!
All encounters with God produce great faith, Moses encounter with the burning bush, Pauls encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus, Peters encounter with Jesus walking on the water, etc etc.. These encounters with God when all logic tells us this is impossible, only grows our understanding to accept 1) There is a God 2) He is interacting with me via His Word, situations, miracles, blessings, answered prayers, dreams etc. 3) Our Spirit is filled with love, peace, joy, satisfaction that has never been there before or has never compared to this experience 4) The bible is real. And it is the Living Word that produces rivers of living water for my soul and for those around me if I share what God has done for me.
Jesus is who He says He is. The Bible can only be read with the Holy Spirit to feed the born again believer. For the unbeliever it is a book of condemnation and wrath, and so the atheist will deny such wrath applies to him and any notion that there is even a God becomes an enemy to his existance. So to deny and rebel is the only option for the person against God. The Bible is his condemnation.
We are told to watch who we become friends with, do not be friends with the world, do not be of the same yoke with unbelievers. We are to preach to the world and win souls for God. It seems the worlds view has won you over.
But you are here and you are open. I hope we can continue this exchange.
A Theology site sounds like the worst place ever! If we think ourselves intellectual and wise we will be humbled. God calls for us to be as children. Humble, caring, and compassionate. Teaching with love and not with big words or sounding prideful. Im sure it is a mess on that site.
So when you look in the mirror now.. what do you see? Are you happy? Or do u have an emptiness and longing for someone to love you the way you deserve to be loved? Appreciated as you deserve to be appreciated valued and acknowledged? Do you see the gifts God placed in you since before your birth? Can you see you are more than just another human? You are most precious to God. He left the 99 in search for the 1. Because you matter to Him. He gave His son to die for your sins so that you wouldnt have to suffer any longer... you just have to turn to Him with a pure heart.
What do you see?
Jesus Christ is the answer to our problems. He changes our minds. He gives us a new heart and a new Spirit. That leads us to understanding and teaches us how to live. It causes conviction in our Spirit if we do wrong, so there is a level of restraint on the believer to do good. It is the guage to our conscience between right and wrong.
Not all Christians are born again. Some are still on the journey to becoming born again. Meaning they have not yet recieved the Holy Spirit or maybe they have not yet encountered God. So not all Christians are on the same Spiritual maturity level. Doctrines can also hinder growth or cause division amongst us.
It is when we encounter God that our lives change. (JIMBONE shared an excellent testimony of his encounter) these encounters as you yourself encountered are supernatural and cannot be explained by human intellect. It is foolishness to the "wise".
It is these experiences that devolpe a relationship with God and a knowing that He is real. That is the essence of faith, because we cannot see God but we know that He is real!
All encounters with God produce great faith, Moses encounter with the burning bush, Pauls encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus, Peters encounter with Jesus walking on the water, etc etc.. These encounters with God when all logic tells us this is impossible, only grows our understanding to accept 1) There is a God 2) He is interacting with me via His Word, situations, miracles, blessings, answered prayers, dreams etc. 3) Our Spirit is filled with love, peace, joy, satisfaction that has never been there before or has never compared to this experience 4) The bible is real. And it is the Living Word that produces rivers of living water for my soul and for those around me if I share what God has done for me.
Jesus is who He says He is. The Bible can only be read with the Holy Spirit to feed the born again believer. For the unbeliever it is a book of condemnation and wrath, and so the atheist will deny such wrath applies to him and any notion that there is even a God becomes an enemy to his existance. So to deny and rebel is the only option for the person against God. The Bible is his condemnation.
We are told to watch who we become friends with, do not be friends with the world, do not be of the same yoke with unbelievers. We are to preach to the world and win souls for God. It seems the worlds view has won you over.
But you are here and you are open. I hope we can continue this exchange.
A Theology site sounds like the worst place ever! If we think ourselves intellectual and wise we will be humbled. God calls for us to be as children. Humble, caring, and compassionate. Teaching with love and not with big words or sounding prideful. Im sure it is a mess on that site.
So when you look in the mirror now.. what do you see? Are you happy? Or do u have an emptiness and longing for someone to love you the way you deserve to be loved? Appreciated as you deserve to be appreciated valued and acknowledged? Do you see the gifts God placed in you since before your birth? Can you see you are more than just another human? You are most precious to God. He left the 99 in search for the 1. Because you matter to Him. He gave His son to die for your sins so that you wouldnt have to suffer any longer... you just have to turn to Him with a pure heart.
What do you see?
Hahaha... Not only that, He is sadistic. He has even prophesied His failure to save as many people as He can: Matt. 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"
I understand where you are coming from. If you are looking for scientific proof God exists, you are spitting into the wind. He will not let you find such proof. Why? Because He requires faith: Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
What if I told you God is not trying to save most people at this time. Well, He isn't. He placed man on the earth right where He also cast Satan and his cohorts. You see Satan and his demons decided what was right or wrong for themselves. Why was evil wrong just because God said so? He tripped up man to make that same mistake.
So then, God allowed evil to come into His universe and to run its course. Then He took the form of a man and showed us how to live sinlessly. Satan had obviously said it could not be done. Jesus proved him wrong and shut his accusations down, thus defeating evil. God is in the process of purging His universe of evil.
Most people are not called in this life, most will have there chance in the Great White Throne Judgment (a period of time) after the millennial reign. So God is not losing the war for souls as most claim. He also will not torture anyone forever. Romans 6:23 tells us the wages of sin is death. Death is just death, you cease to be. Satan, his demons, all evil people, even death and the grave itself will be completely destroyed at the end (see Rev. 20:10-15).
I understand where you are coming from. If you are looking for scientific proof God exists, you are spitting into the wind. He will not let you find such proof. Why? Because He requires faith: Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
What if I told you God is not trying to save most people at this time. Well, He isn't. He placed man on the earth right where He also cast Satan and his cohorts. You see Satan and his demons decided what was right or wrong for themselves. Why was evil wrong just because God said so? He tripped up man to make that same mistake.
So then, God allowed evil to come into His universe and to run its course. Then He took the form of a man and showed us how to live sinlessly. Satan had obviously said it could not be done. Jesus proved him wrong and shut his accusations down, thus defeating evil. God is in the process of purging His universe of evil.
Most people are not called in this life, most will have there chance in the Great White Throne Judgment (a period of time) after the millennial reign. So God is not losing the war for souls as most claim. He also will not torture anyone forever. Romans 6:23 tells us the wages of sin is death. Death is just death, you cease to be. Satan, his demons, all evil people, even death and the grave itself will be completely destroyed at the end (see Rev. 20:10-15).
I am not morally perfect, I agree. But the God of the Bible is far worse. I have never supported slavery and I have never brutally murdered anyone and taken virgins as unwilling wives.
I don’t know which version of the Bible you used here. I used the RSV which read a bit differently...
Matthew 27:1-10 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
5 And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself. 6 But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since they are blood money.” 7 So they took counsel, and bought with them the potter’s field, to bury strangers in. 8 Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, 10 and they gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord directed me.”
Acts 1:18 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
18 Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out.
So in Matthew, Judas hanged himself (no mention of falling headlong or bowels spilling open) and the Priests bought the Field with the money.
In Acts, Judas buys the Field, and he falls headlong and his bowels spilled out (no mention of hanging himself).
Now it could be argued that it’s not a contradiction (mutually exclusive information) but it’s hugely inconsistent and would be thrown out of a Court of Law as being inadmissable as evidence.
Except that every Christian who has tried this “Easter Challenge” has not been able to put a sensible narrative together by not omitting any of the information contained in the 4 gospels. How come 3 of the 4 gospels didn’t even report an Earthquake! This is ludicrous!
I don’t know which version of the Bible you used here. I used the RSV which read a bit differently...
Matthew 27:1-10 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
5 And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself. 6 But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since they are blood money.” 7 So they took counsel, and bought with them the potter’s field, to bury strangers in. 8 Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, 10 and they gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord directed me.”
Acts 1:18 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
18 Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out.
So in Matthew, Judas hanged himself (no mention of falling headlong or bowels spilling open) and the Priests bought the Field with the money.
In Acts, Judas buys the Field, and he falls headlong and his bowels spilled out (no mention of hanging himself).
Now it could be argued that it’s not a contradiction (mutually exclusive information) but it’s hugely inconsistent and would be thrown out of a Court of Law as being inadmissable as evidence.
Except that every Christian who has tried this “Easter Challenge” has not been able to put a sensible narrative together by not omitting any of the information contained in the 4 gospels. How come 3 of the 4 gospels didn’t even report an Earthquake! This is ludicrous!
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Slavery and genocide were brought into this world through sin not the righteousness of God. You are a sinner even if you only see yourself as a tiny sinner you are still a sinner. You are condemned by your sin. There will be more than sufficient evidence to condemn you at the judgment throne of God.
Slavery and genocide are in this world to show us what sin looks like and why we should hate sin.
God does not judge on a sliding scale. The soul that sinneth it shall surely die. Absolute perfection is the standard and those who fall short must have a Redeemer to save them from their just penalty.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Slavery and genocide are in this world to show us what sin looks like and why we should hate sin.
God does not judge on a sliding scale. The soul that sinneth it shall surely die. Absolute perfection is the standard and those who fall short must have a Redeemer to save them from their just penalty.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
this is hilarious!
you think 'if there is a God after all' He will give you eternal life like it's a participation award?
for your unbelief? for your accusations against Him?
you hate God, you deny Him, and you figure you might get a 'bonus' of Him richly rewarding you anyway -- oh because of course you would, everyone will, because that would be the only thing that's 'fair' or 'moral' of Him to do, and if He's not the sort of God who gives everyone a trophy just for showing up, heck, even if they don't show up at all, then He must not exist. because you say so.
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it's true though, your unbelief doesn't change reality.
you think 'if there is a God after all' He will give you eternal life like it's a participation award?
for your unbelief? for your accusations against Him?
you hate God, you deny Him, and you figure you might get a 'bonus' of Him richly rewarding you anyway -- oh because of course you would, everyone will, because that would be the only thing that's 'fair' or 'moral' of Him to do, and if He's not the sort of God who gives everyone a trophy just for showing up, heck, even if they don't show up at all, then He must not exist. because you say so.
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it's true though, your unbelief doesn't change reality.
I don’t currently believe that the God of the Bible exists in reality, other than as a concept in some people’s heads. To me, the Bible is God in man’s image not the other way around. And I mean man’s image not woman’s image.
It is possible that another God is behind all this or some process of spiritual evolution that we don’t understand. But you are right. I think it unlikely I would ever want anything from your God, if he exists. Your God is a bit like a cosmic Mafia Boss. “Do as I say or I’ll break your legs!” Less like God the Father and more like The Godfather.
“Might makes right” isn’t a good moral position. It’s possible that your God exists and is a bit evil, like Q from Star Trek. How do you know that God in The Bible is the good guy and Satan is the wicked one?
This from your post No. 16. This is your first post to me and you have come to this conclusion before asking me anything.
“This is the problem.
You wanted to leave the faith, so you went ONLY to those people who would make arguments AGAINST it.
You did NOT go to people who could make arguments FOR it.”
It’s not true. I did speak to Christians as well as atheists when I had doubts. I did read Christian literature.
And this from your Post 70.
“1. It is logically coherent, and logically tenable, for a theist to simply say, "I believe in God because I have experienced him in a direct and personal way."
This is not a subjective answer, this is an answer of one's personal experience of an external and objective reality.
This is logically tenable, and will hold up to philosophical scrutiny.
2. It is also logically coherent, and logically tenable, for a theist to simply say, "I believe in God because I simply KNOW he exists, and I experience this "knowing" as a "foundational" or "properly basic" belief.
This is also logically tenable, and will hold up to philosophical scrutiny.“
My response : None of what you have written will necessarily hold up to philosophical scrutiny. These are just assertions. In order for you to claim that you have a valid and sound logical argument, you would have to present it formally. Then that demands a response from the recipient. Your argument would have to contain some starting point definitions, some premises and a conclusion. The argument would have to be valid in structure and it would have to be sound (the premises would have to be true).
Until you do that, what you present without evidence or argument can be dismissed without evidence or argument. The burden of proof is on the claimant (the Christian making a God claim).
The trouble with any logical arguments for God (and I’ve studied quite a few) is that there is always a logical problem with them – either one of the premises is not necessarily true, or the argument is circular / begging the question (one of the premises appears in the conclusion).
The main logical problem I see with what you have said above is this – A Muslim could say exactly the same thing that you have said about the God they believe in. Christianity and Islam can’t both be correct because they make contradictory claims about Jesus. However, they can both be wrong. This is missing from your “analysis”.
And you also make the charge that I am on this site to deconvert people – I have participated in sites like this since 2011 and to my knowledge have yet to deconvert a single person. I am interested in what people have to say. Although it's true I celebrate any Christian who has the integrity to at least question their own beliefs.
Your assumptive, “Cut and Paste”, politically- motivated, overly-protective postings just make me glad I left the religion, because I feel some Christians have something to hide. Is the creator of the Universe on your side or not? If so, then why can’t Christians defend their positions coherently and honestly? And easily?
“This is the problem.
You wanted to leave the faith, so you went ONLY to those people who would make arguments AGAINST it.
You did NOT go to people who could make arguments FOR it.”
It’s not true. I did speak to Christians as well as atheists when I had doubts. I did read Christian literature.
And this from your Post 70.
“1. It is logically coherent, and logically tenable, for a theist to simply say, "I believe in God because I have experienced him in a direct and personal way."
This is not a subjective answer, this is an answer of one's personal experience of an external and objective reality.
This is logically tenable, and will hold up to philosophical scrutiny.
2. It is also logically coherent, and logically tenable, for a theist to simply say, "I believe in God because I simply KNOW he exists, and I experience this "knowing" as a "foundational" or "properly basic" belief.
This is also logically tenable, and will hold up to philosophical scrutiny.“
My response : None of what you have written will necessarily hold up to philosophical scrutiny. These are just assertions. In order for you to claim that you have a valid and sound logical argument, you would have to present it formally. Then that demands a response from the recipient. Your argument would have to contain some starting point definitions, some premises and a conclusion. The argument would have to be valid in structure and it would have to be sound (the premises would have to be true).
Until you do that, what you present without evidence or argument can be dismissed without evidence or argument. The burden of proof is on the claimant (the Christian making a God claim).
The trouble with any logical arguments for God (and I’ve studied quite a few) is that there is always a logical problem with them – either one of the premises is not necessarily true, or the argument is circular / begging the question (one of the premises appears in the conclusion).
The main logical problem I see with what you have said above is this – A Muslim could say exactly the same thing that you have said about the God they believe in. Christianity and Islam can’t both be correct because they make contradictory claims about Jesus. However, they can both be wrong. This is missing from your “analysis”.
And you also make the charge that I am on this site to deconvert people – I have participated in sites like this since 2011 and to my knowledge have yet to deconvert a single person. I am interested in what people have to say. Although it's true I celebrate any Christian who has the integrity to at least question their own beliefs.
Your assumptive, “Cut and Paste”, politically- motivated, overly-protective postings just make me glad I left the religion, because I feel some Christians have something to hide. Is the creator of the Universe on your side or not? If so, then why can’t Christians defend their positions coherently and honestly? And easily?
I have no problems with the accounts of the death and reasurection of Jesus..
And as for 3 of the 4 Gospels not reporting on the earthquake.. Why do you think we have 4 Gospels in the Bible??? Because none of the Gospels give a full account and so we needed 4 accounts to give a fuller picture of what happened.. This is not Ludicrous,, this is Logical..
And as for 3 of the 4 Gospels not reporting on the earthquake.. Why do you think we have 4 Gospels in the Bible??? Because none of the Gospels give a full account and so we needed 4 accounts to give a fuller picture of what happened.. This is not Ludicrous,, this is Logical..
But everything you just used to measure here is a self centered, and an arbitrary personal perspective. In a world without God there is no reason to love, or decide what's good and evil, other than "I feel this way". If that's true of love it has to be just as true of hate, and anger, and jealousy, and honesty. These things are only relevant to you when we "feel it", but each one of us may "feel" something different. It's chaos when no one can define a standard to which all others must be grounded in. Now all of us live as if there is a standard, whether we believe in God or not, however those that deny Gods existence, or profess the ever prevalent and baseless, floating, evasive, mushy neutral stance "I haven't seen the evidence that convinces me, but I won't take any solid stance or lay a foundation to stand on, an "anything can happen so I can always have an out", position.
Again I have to point out that in and of the flesh you can not find God, you can not be born again. This is why Jesus is such a scandal, because He tells us He is "THE" way not "a" way. The things of the Spirit are foolishness to those who are perishing. The problems is way beyond a debate about "contradiction's" in the bible, or how old the earth is. I am NOT saying we abandon our brains and just blindly believe, but the truth is the spiritual truth can not be found by studying the creation, even though I'd say creation SCREAMS His name. Being "Born Again", is the point that Jesus sacrifice is applied to you, His righteousness is applied to you and your sins washed clean because He took the punishment, leaves a JUST God, full of mercy, by His grace because He loves you. BAM now your spirit is resurrected and is reconciled to the Fathers, recreating you as you were intended to be, making you all new, your eyes see things different, priorities completely rearranged. A whole new path in power, and it's the Spirit that testifies of the Truth, and I just so happen to know who that is.
The whole way you're thinking here is part of the trap, and man I can start going. Does this make sense to you up to this point. I just wanted to stop myself before I cover way more than can be answered in a sensible post.
Again I have to point out that in and of the flesh you can not find God, you can not be born again. This is why Jesus is such a scandal, because He tells us He is "THE" way not "a" way. The things of the Spirit are foolishness to those who are perishing. The problems is way beyond a debate about "contradiction's" in the bible, or how old the earth is. I am NOT saying we abandon our brains and just blindly believe, but the truth is the spiritual truth can not be found by studying the creation, even though I'd say creation SCREAMS His name. Being "Born Again", is the point that Jesus sacrifice is applied to you, His righteousness is applied to you and your sins washed clean because He took the punishment, leaves a JUST God, full of mercy, by His grace because He loves you. BAM now your spirit is resurrected and is reconciled to the Fathers, recreating you as you were intended to be, making you all new, your eyes see things different, priorities completely rearranged. A whole new path in power, and it's the Spirit that testifies of the Truth, and I just so happen to know who that is.
The whole way you're thinking here is part of the trap, and man I can start going. Does this make sense to you up to this point. I just wanted to stop myself before I cover way more than can be answered in a sensible post.
Sorry for the late reply.
That's the point. Muslims will present similar arguments and assumptions as Christians for their particular God belief. They both can't be true because the 2 religions make contradictory claims about Jesus. However, both religions can be wrong or in error. How do you (or how does anyone) decide on which belief is more likely to be correct? The growth and spread of all religions appears to have a strong cultural and geographic link. If anyone is religious, it is overwhelmingly likely that they will have the same beliefs as their parents. This seems like an odd mechanism for there to be an underlying Universal objective truth at work.
Can you give me the best bit of evidence for your beliefs?
Like I said, there are cultural influences at work, probably not an objective truth underpinning it all.
Thank you for taking an interest in this thread and I wish you happiness whatever your worldview.
That's the point. Muslims will present similar arguments and assumptions as Christians for their particular God belief. They both can't be true because the 2 religions make contradictory claims about Jesus. However, both religions can be wrong or in error. How do you (or how does anyone) decide on which belief is more likely to be correct? The growth and spread of all religions appears to have a strong cultural and geographic link. If anyone is religious, it is overwhelmingly likely that they will have the same beliefs as their parents. This seems like an odd mechanism for there to be an underlying Universal objective truth at work.
Can you give me the best bit of evidence for your beliefs?
Like I said, there are cultural influences at work, probably not an objective truth underpinning it all.
Thank you for taking an interest in this thread and I wish you happiness whatever your worldview.
Are you seriously satisfied with that answer?
Exodus 21 states:
20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money.
Notice how badly you can beat a slave. If the slave dies after 3 days due to the beating, the perpetrator is off the hook! This is a morally bankrupt position. To the question "Is it ever ok to own another human being as property?" the only correct morally justifiable answer is "No. Never."
I was referring to the various God-supported genocides in the OT. Given your answer above, I think I know the kind of tap dance you'll perform around the issue.
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I understand what you are saying, but what's wrong with people creating their own life purpose? As long as they are not causing harm, what's the problem? Why can't people take responsibility for their actions and pride in their accomplishments? The problem with religion is that believers appear to sacrifice the only life they KNOW they are going to get and give it up to an idea, which may not be correct.
How do you KNOW any of this? KNOWLEDGE is "demonstrable true belief", i.e it is a belief that comports with reality and the claimant can demonstrate it in some way. How can you demonstrate anything you've claimed?
Why should I care what the Bible says unless you can demonstrate the truthfulness of its claims?
Why should I care what the Bible says unless you can demonstrate the truthfulness of its claims?
And now here come the threats. I wondered when they would appear. Christians like yourself can't really demonstrate your claims, so your last resort is to threaten, without any justification.
I'm not attacking God because I don't currently believe he exists. I am attacking parts of the Bible and Christians who prop up what is either immoral or untrue.
I'm not attacking God because I don't currently believe he exists. I am attacking parts of the Bible and Christians who prop up what is either immoral or untrue.