What does the Law REALLY say?

[KohenMatt]

"And in today's community, women have barriers to keep that from happening." ... what do you mean by Barriers?

Ahemmmmm.....

(Feminine products)

 

[Dan_473]

The Spirit would tell you to worship in spirit AND in truth. Physical obedience AND the Holy Spirit.
We're not talking about not keeping the rules. We're talking about your opinion of the method needed to keep it.


And in today's community, women have barriers to keep that from happening.



Jesus was completely obedient to the Law as it was set forth by God. He was not completely obedient to it as the Pharisees saw fit. He had to be completely obedient because he was the perfect and pure sacrifice. He couldn't be that sacrifice if He had sinned against God.



Yes and no. The primary purpose of the Law was to teach Israel how to live in the midst of a perfect and pure God. And yes, it would set them apart from the other nations, but even that was meant to arouse them to fear of God and a desire to serve Him instead of their gods. God always made a way and a preparation for the "alien" to come into Israel's society.



If that's the case, a large percentage of Christians are disobeying God. Moses says if you divorce, here's how to do it. Jesus says you shouldn't even get to that point. But even if you do, it should be for certain reasons (Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:15)

You seem like someone who is legitimately interested in how to make sense of these things instead of staunchly defending your perspective, and I definitely appreciate that. But with all due respect, don't get so caught up on EXACTLY how you think these things should be kept.

That's exactly what the Pharisees did.

"Jesus was completely obedient to the Law as it was set forth by God."
and perhaps therein lies the key... if the law is interpreted loosely, so that wash means wash later that day or year, when you normally would... defecate outside the camp means build a plumbing system and defecate inside your house... execute adulterers means don't kill them... then yes, I totally agree that the law is not burdensome... looking at it that way, though, i think a better name might be not so much law keeper, as spirit follower...

 

[KohenMatt]

"Jesus was completely obedient to the Law as it was set forth by God."
and perhaps therein lies the key... if the law is interpreted loosely, so that wash means wash later that day or year, when you normally would... defecate outside the camp means build a plumbing system and defecate inside your house... execute adulterers means don't kill them... then yes, I totally agree that the law is not burdensome... looking at it that way, though, i think a better name might be not so much law keeper, as spirit follower...

The interpretations and applications you're suggesting are personal and go beyond what the Law says, and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with folks who want to be as careful as they can to not risk breaking the Law, but as I said, that's where the Pharisees got into trouble. I will agree with your last statement for the most part. The priority should be following the Spirit, but as I've said, the Spirit will cause you to follow the Law. And again, what does God care about most? His people isolating themselves to not risk being unclean, or to among the lost to be a light? Remember, being "unclean" wasn't a sin. It was the product of living with others and just plain being in the world. God knew His people would be unclean throughout the day, and He made a way for them to be cleansed. It's the same with us today.

I suppose you and I are getting hung up on how much work we should do to avoid being unclean. What you're proposing is much more legalistic than what I am.

 

[Dan_473]

The Spirit would tell you to worship in spirit AND in truth. Physical obedience AND the Holy Spirit.
We're not talking about not keeping the rules. We're talking about your opinion of the method needed to keep it.


And in today's community, women have barriers to keep that from happening.



Jesus was completely obedient to the Law as it was set forth by God. He was not completely obedient to it as the Pharisees saw fit. He had to be completely obedient because he was the perfect and pure sacrifice. He couldn't be that sacrifice if He had sinned against God.



Yes and no. The primary purpose of the Law was to teach Israel how to live in the midst of a perfect and pure God. And yes, it would set them apart from the other nations, but even that was meant to arouse them to fear of God and a desire to serve Him instead of their gods. God always made a way and a preparation for the "alien" to come into Israel's society.



If that's the case, a large percentage of Christians are disobeying God. Moses says if you divorce, here's how to do it. Jesus says you shouldn't even get to that point. But even if you do, it should be for certain reasons (Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:15)

You seem like someone who is legitimately interested in how to make sense of these things instead of staunchly defending your perspective, and I definitely appreciate that. But with all due respect, don't get so caught up on EXACTLY how you think these things should be kept.

That's exactly what the Pharisees did.

"God always made a way and a preparation for the "alien" to come into Israel's society." ... yes, I was thinking more of the observant person in the alien society... but yes, if a person follows the spirit and has a loose approach to observance, then it's no problem...

 

[Dan_473]

The Spirit would tell you to worship in spirit AND in truth. Physical obedience AND the Holy Spirit.
We're not talking about not keeping the rules. We're talking about your opinion of the method needed to keep it.


And in today's community, women have barriers to keep that from happening.



Jesus was completely obedient to the Law as it was set forth by God. He was not completely obedient to it as the Pharisees saw fit. He had to be completely obedient because he was the perfect and pure sacrifice. He couldn't be that sacrifice if He had sinned against God.



Yes and no. The primary purpose of the Law was to teach Israel how to live in the midst of a perfect and pure God. And yes, it would set them apart from the other nations, but even that was meant to arouse them to fear of God and a desire to serve Him instead of their gods. God always made a way and a preparation for the "alien" to come into Israel's society.



If that's the case, a large percentage of Christians are disobeying God. Moses says if you divorce, here's how to do it. Jesus says you shouldn't even get to that point. But even if you do, it should be for certain reasons (Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:15)

You seem like someone who is legitimately interested in how to make sense of these things instead of staunchly defending your perspective, and I definitely appreciate that. But with all due respect, don't get so caught up on EXACTLY how you think these things should be kept.

That's exactly what the Pharisees did.

"If that's the case, a large percentage of Christians are disobeying God." could be... in what way?

"But with all due respect, don't get so caught up on EXACTLY how you think these things should be kept."...sure thing! a looser approach...

 

[Dan_473]

Originally Posted by psychomom
hey, Dan.

didn't the Lord Jesus have to be exactingly strict in His Keeping of the Law?

every 'jot and tittle'?

Exactly. Or else He wouldn't have been a perfect sacrifice on our behalf.

OK, now I'm confused again... if Jesus was exactingly strict, shouldn't a law keeper today be? then again, maybe Jesus was using the spirit's interpretation, which might be very different...

PS I'm really enjoying this discussion... I hope you are, too!

 

[Dan_473]

It cannot be mentioned often enough about our Lord, Jesus Christ. He walked this, His Creatiion, without blemish, yet He teaches you have heard it saidi and eye for an eye, but He teaches against this in favor of humility and mercy, saying nay, I tell you if you are strick on the cheek, offer the other cheek. He also mediated between the woman caught in adultery and the hypocrites wanting her stoned to death according to the law.

Did our Lord break the law in either of these instances? I say not at all, but this is why all must learn from Him just how the law is yet in effect. It is, but as I have always stressted, Jesus teahces us plainly which laws may be replaced by His teaching. He is clear on this, but doctrines of man have muddled this understanding for centuries. Pleas do not use the grace of the Blood of the Lamb of God as an excuse to be disobedient, or to teach against the wisdom of His law.

if Jesus said that some laws may be replaced by His teaching... that makes sense, being greater than Moses... my opinion, Jesus would then a law changer... I'm cool with that, not sure if others are...

 

[KohenMatt]

Originally Posted by psychomom
hey, Dan.

didn't the Lord Jesus have to be exactingly strict in His Keeping of the Law?

every 'jot and tittle'?

OK, now I'm confused again... if Jesus was exactingly strict, shouldn't a law keeper today be? then again, maybe Jesus was using the spirit's interpretation, which might be very different...

Remember, He kept it strictly, but not according to the Pharisees interpretations. And you're right, He did keep it according to the Spirit's interpretation, which still would have met the physical requirements of the Law completely. The Holy Spirit cannot change what God Himself created, and what Jesus Himself lived out, because they're all the same. The Pharisees placed their interpretation and application of the Law in a different way than God intended, and that's what Jesus' called them out on.

if Jesus said that some laws may be replaced by His teaching... that makes sense, being greater than Moses... my opinion, Jesus would then a law changer... I'm cool with that, not sure if others are...

Jesus' didn't change the Laws, He brought them to a greater understanding. Just because He said if you hate your neighbor you've sinned, it doesn't mean the law to not murder has been changed. He took the law to a higher standard without eliminating the original standard.

 

[Dan_473]

And who told you this?

they've probably read your post... if they want to come forward, they can...

we'll start fresh... do you know of observant communities of believers, where they are zealous for the law, that are spiritually healthy?

 

[Elin]

Jesus' didn't change the Laws, He brought them to a greater understanding.

He abrogated the law of retaliation and gave a new law of non-retaliation.

 

[Dan_473]

Moses made no such alteration. Deut 24 was not Moses' thoughts, he was speaking what God told him to speak. God wrote this Law not Moses. He allowed Israel certain things even though it was not what He wanted for them. Why did He allow it?

Mar 10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
Mar 10:5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Mar 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
Mar 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
Mar 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

The people were not given the Holy Spirit and did not have a circumcised heart. What does God say for today?

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Doesn't mean God approved, it means God did not pass the ultimate death penalty on them because they have not yet had their opportunity...

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

When was Israel blinded? It was an ongoing condition from the start...

Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

Notice God was grieved with the generation that came out of Egypt because they did not have the heart to obey God.

yes, God allowed divorce, Jesus didn't allow... I'd say that's an alteration, though I'm happy calling it just a very different interpretation...

 

[Dan_473]

Exactly, that's why He wanted His people's hearts to be circumcised so they could understand the spirit of the Law through the revelation given by the Holy Spirit.

Obedience to the Law without the Holy Spirit means nothing except good acts.

cool! then I think it's not really a matter of what the law says, rather, what the spirit says the law says... so, while the law is great to study, the focus for obedience would be what the spirit says, not what we read in the law...

 

[Elin]

Exactly, that's why He wanted His people's hearts to be circumcised so they could understand the spirit of the Law

Nowhere in Scripture is the phrase "spirit of the Law" found.

That is a misnomer of man.

Scripture speaks only of the Law (or letter), and the Spirit. . .no "spirit of the Law."

There is no sense or meaning of the Law apart from the words (letter) themselves of the law.

And we have no liscense to add any in the name of its supposed "spirit."

The only spirit is the Holy Spirit.

The only Law is its letter (words).

And the Holy Spirit does not give meanings apart from the words he wrote.

 

[Elin]

yes, God allowed divorce, Jesus didn't allow... I'd say that's an alteration, though
I'm happy calling it just a very different interpretation...

Jesus did not say he was giving a different interpretation.

He clearly stated it was the law, but it was not that way from the beginning.

And as Lawgiver, he gives new law for the people of God.

 

[KohenMatt]

Nowhere in Scripture is the phrase "spirit of the Law" found.

That is a misnomer of man.

Scripture speaks only of the Law (or letter), and the Spirit. . .no "spirit of the Law."

There is no sense or meaning of the Law apart from the words (letter) themselves of the law.

And we have no liscense to add any in the name of its supposed "spirit."

The only spirit is the Holy Spirit.

The only Law is its letter (words).

And the Holy Spirit does not give meanings apart from the words he wrote.

Would the phrase, "The spirit behind the Law" sound better to you?

 

[Elin]

Would the phrase, "The spirit behind the Law" sound better to you?

No, because that is not in Scripture either.

It can't be said any more truly than Scripture says it.

 

[BradC]

Jesus did not say he was giving a different interpretation.

He clearly stated it was the law, but it was not that way from the beginning.

And as Lawgiver, he gives new law for the people of God.

Moses wrote that bill of divorcement because of the hardness of their heart, but it was not that way from the beginning. Perhaps Moses wrote it because many of the men were bitter toward their wives for multiple reasons through their hardness, rigid and stiff-necked attitude toward what they wanted and expected from their wife. God probably set many of the women free from that rigid life they had with their husbands by allowing this bill of divorcement.

 

[royalscot]

Moses wrote that bill of divorcement because of the hardness of their heart, but it was not that way from the beginning. Perhaps Moses wrote it because many of the men were bitter toward their wives for multiple reasons through their hardness, rigid and stiff-necked attitude toward what they wanted and expected from their wife. God probably set many of the women free from that rigid life they had with their husbands by allowing this bill of divorcement.

jesus said, he who is, with out sin cast the first stone.
strange how change make a mockery of everything.

 

[KohenMatt]

No, because that is not in Scripture either.

It can't be said any more truly than Scripture says it.

OK, that's fine then.

 

[Kerry]

Moses wrote that bill of divorcement because of the hardness of their heart, but it was not that way from the beginning. Perhaps Moses wrote it because many of the men were bitter toward their wives for multiple reasons through their hardness, rigid and stiff-necked attitude toward what they wanted and expected from their wife. God probably set many of the women free from that rigid life they had with their husbands by allowing this bill of divorcement.

Paul also gave a reason for divorce. I do not promote divorce and neither did Paul. But in Corinthians, many people were being saved and their spouses were not. Paul said that they were from that bondage. But, recommended that they stay in that bondage, saying who knows o'wife if your husband will be saved and who knows o'husband if your wife will be saved and your children are covered,