What happened to discipleship in today's American church?

[Viligant_Warrior]

Yeah, that was my point. Some people tend to "selectively" Pick-Out certain things, ignoring others.

I didn't "selectively" pick out anything. The point remains the same. If people aren't qualified, equipped, and supported in ministry, they have absolutely no business going out on their own.

And yet again, I repeat: It is the churches divinely ordained mandate to do the qualifying, equipping, and supporting. There is where the system in the American church breaks down today. They don't do discipleship as they are commanded. The local churches are the only God-directed institutions to provide that process.

 

[atwhatcost]

2000 people? How does everyone get a chance to minister in just one hour?

Thank you for proving my point. You are unto yourself, not God. I told what the church does.

Here's what my old pastor did.

 

[atwhatcost]

Yeah, that was my point. Some people tend to "selectively" Pick-Out certain things, ignoring others.

Hey now, VW was being very nice about it and not making it about one church. You pushed the issue. Who's being selective?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

2000 people? How does everyone get a chance to minister in just one hour?

That's your problem, thinking she was referring to "ministry" taking place on Sunday morning. That's the problem: The church is all about Sunday morning and doesn't think beyond the next one. Ministry takes place 24/7/365 with no rest on the extra day in a Leap year. And your problem with the church is that you don't know what's it is for.

 

[Willie-T]

Hey now, VW was being very nice about it and not making it about one church. You pushed the issue. Who's being selective?

You and he may assume the luxury of simply "generally" speaking for all churches, even churches you have never set foot in, but I feel a requirement to try to only speak about what I know about, firsthand.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

You and he may assume the luxury of simply "generally" speaking for all churches, even churches you have never set foot in, but I feel a requirement to try to only speak about what I know about, firsthand.

I speak in a dozen churches a month all over the Midwest about Christian- and church-based teen recovery programs and curriculae that can be locally implemented. I speak in Baptist churches, AoG, nondenominational Pentecostal and regular nondenominational, Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic -- and yes, a few Vineyard churches, though none in Missouri.

In the last five years, I've spoken in over 600 churches. I did a seminar in Canada for an ecumenical gathering from six conservative denominations in Saskatchewan.

Do I know enough to speak somewhat authoritatively? Perhaps you don't think so, Willie, but I've seen and heard a lot, enough to know what some of the local church problems are, and the issues I've spoken of on this thread are definitely among them.

 

[Michael47]

You and he may assume the luxury of simply "generally" speaking for all churches, even churches you have never set foot in, but I feel a requirement to try to only speak about what I know about, firsthand.

I aggree! You can't lump all churches together and say they are bad

 

[atwhatcost]

I didn't "selectively" pick out anything. The point remains the same. If people aren't qualified, equipped, and supported in ministry, they have absolutely no business going out on their own.

And yet again, I repeat: It is the churches divinely ordained mandate to do the qualifying, equipping, and supporting. There is where the system in the American church breaks down today. They don't do discipleship as they are commanded. The local churches are the only God-directed institutions to provide that process.

Hey, VW, I was thinking about this. If I didn't know how to do a ministry, there was no way I was doing it on my own. (Prison ministry, evangelism, feeding the hungry and evangelizing -- stuff like that.) But if I knew how, all I ever did, after talking it over with hubby, (and talking him into joining me more than once, lol), was talk to the pastor to see if it was all right. I'm not even sure I asked him. I kind of told him what I needed to do and then checked to see if he had suggestions. He never hated the idea.

But the ministry took in my experience in life. We simply helped people when we found people, or knew people, who could use some help. Stuff like an older woman with four kids was pregnant and having complications, so her doctor told her she should stay in bed for three months. FOUR kids, she couldn't stay in bed, so I'd go over to clean her house and talk to her once a week. (Tried to get the other ladies to take other days, but no one did.) Or a young couple had a colicky baby. We babysat one night (and I became eternally grateful that God never gave us kids. lol) And after hubby met a couple living on $550 a month from disability, but the state was paying for their new heater, (hubby was a heating mechanic and the guy who was doing the job through work), we gave them Christmas that year.

Doesn't seem particularly important for serious qualifying for typical stuff most people know how to do without additional training. Not entirely sure what equipped means in this kind of ministry, other than able to do it. And, like I said, I never particular felt a need for our pastor to approve it. I think mostly I thought it was polite he should know what's going on in his church, and maybe he knew someone who might help.

So do all ministry requiring those conditions or just the big ministries?

(And I was younger and naiver back then, so you won't hurt my feelings if you think I did it wrong. I'm more interested in how far done-right goes.)

 

[oldthennew]

when we are led to minister, it's always a win-win-situation - for heartfelt-Jesus-giving can only
bring joy to the giver and to the given to.

in the scripture there are things that seem to please our Father so much, and ministering to those in need
is obviously very high on His list, for He tell us that He loves a cheerful giver = guess He's self-projecting here
for if we give in Love, we are joyful, and if we are joyful, we possess the peace of God, which passes all
understanding.....

 

[atwhatcost]

when we are led to minister, it's always a win-win-situation - for heartfelt-Jesus-giving can only
bring joy to the giver and to the given to.

in the scripture there are things that seem to please our Father so much, and ministering to those in need
is obviously very high on His list, for He tell us that He loves a cheerful giver = guess He's self-projecting here
for if we give in Love, we are joyful, and if we are joyful, we possess the peace of God, which passes all
understanding.....

What stopped me from prison minister (and I only went to juvie -- not adult prisons) was coming face-to-face with a teen rapist. That wasn't so much joy or love as, "Lord, help me not take it out on him." Seems to me, with a bit more guidance, I should have never been at that point before I was ready. It's 20+ years later, and I'm still not sure I am ready for that one.

 

[oldthennew]

at,

when I was in my twenties, after having two babies, and them still such little ones, I was 'gang-raped'
by several young men in their late teens and early twenties - in a setting that was pristine and seemed
totally safe....

what I did, AFTER, was immediately go into a 'scenario of my own' and actually created a separate 'reality'
in order to survive and KEEP MY SANITY....

I will just say this to you, I have forgiven my tormentors and given that part of my life over to God,
and only one thing can come from this action, TOTALY FREEDOM...... -

I totally understand, that when we are violated, particularly in a 'sexual-manner', that it can have
repercussions for years on end, BUT, we must NEVER BLAME ourselves, and we WILL eventually be
given the ways and means to forgive our abusers....
else, we will live in bitterness and fear, always without hope,
but,
fear not, because, in Christ's Time, He WILL SET YOU FREE, from the devastating effect of a
'fallen and perverted world'.....

 

[atwhatcost]

at,

when I was in my twenties, after having two babies, and them still such little ones, I was 'gang-raped'
by several young men in their late teens and early twenties - in a setting that was pristine and seemed
totally safe....

what I did, AFTER, was immediately go into a 'scenario of my own' and actually created a separate 'reality'
in order to survive and KEEP MY SANITY....

I will just say this to you, I have forgiven my tormentors and given that part of my life over to God,
and only one thing can come from this action, TOTALY FREEDOM...... -

I totally understand, that when we are violated, particularly in a 'sexual-manner', that it can have
repercussions for years on end, BUT, we must NEVER BLAME ourselves, and we WILL eventually be
given the ways and means to forgive our abusers....
else, we will live in bitterness and fear, always without hope,
but,
fear not, because, in Christ's Time, He WILL SET YOU FREE, from the devastating effect of a
'fallen and perverted world'.....

Forgive my abusers? It took a while, but God got me there.

I'm still Mama Bear though. I want to protect everyone, so kind of wanted to punch out his punky lights for his target. (One of those, "yeah, I'm tough" facades, but I could tell he was really a wimp that could be taken.) Kind of immediately want to do that to your abusers too. I know. Not necessary, and I'm a bit weird, but that's why I'm probably not good at prison ministry. I'll accept someone when God does, but they're still serving time and not saved, so... Karate Kid move on them. Hi-yah! lol

This is not the heart of someone who should do prison ministry.