what has been fulfilled?

[pottersclay]

Somebody here needs a snickers bar....maybe two....and it's not the blue color people.

 

[PennEd]

Luke 1: 32 [FONT=&quot]He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.

This is a Political Throne. Jesus has yet to sit on it.

Mark 12: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]35 Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David?[/FONT]36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit:[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’[i][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37 Therefore David himself calls Him ‘Lord’; how is He then his Son?”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And the common people heard Him gladly.


Where is Jesus currently sitting? AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER.

Till When? Till He makes His enemies a footstool.

You would have thought this foolishness that Prophecies about Israel have been fulfilled, or forfeited by Israel and "replaced" by the Church would have ended on May 14th 1948 when the sate of Israel, after almost 2000 yrs became a nation state again as Prophesied in Isaiah 11.

But no. The insidious doctrine of replacement theology, which has born such hatred and animosity toward the Jews, is only getting stronger. It has born Holocaust denial, and the absurdity that the Jews in Israel aren't really Jews at all.

Also, allegorizing Scripture is a MUCH greater danger than taking a literal approach. Should we allegorize Nephilim? How about Goliath? Did Samson's hair really give him super human strength? Did Moses talk to a burning bush? Did a Donkey really talk? What about Jonah? Hmm. Jesus himself references his 3 days in a fish's belly. Should we believe Jesus? How about Jesus himself? There are those who even allegorize His resurrection!

When we go down that road of symbolism or allegory we pick and choose what's real and what's merely symbolic. I choose to believe in ALL of the prementioned examples and the rest of ALL Scripture as well![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]


[/FONT]

 

[Zmouth]

So I still want to know who the two witnesses are and how everyone in the world saw them die, gave each other presents then all of the witnessed the two witnesses come back to life and ascend to heaven. I can not see how this can be spiritual, symbolism or whatever.

So you believe it is literal?

3 Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.
4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.
5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.
Acts 3:3-5

The two witnesses are the two souls that testify that to all they had seen.

6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; [Prov 12:25] but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ancle bones received strength.
8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:
10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.
Acts 3:6-10

[video=youtube;DKtjBqJ4NxA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKtjBqJ4NxA[/video]

 

[tanakh]

Revelation relies heavily on symbols derived from the OT to emphasize the judgement of God. It is not entirely in Chronological order but in the order of the visions received by John. Partial fulfillment can be found in the OT. The plagues of Egypt is a notable example. In Revelation they are extended to include the whole world. The events portrayed have been repeated in varying degrees throughout history but there is still a future time when they come to their final fulfillment prior to Christs return.

 

[Yahshua]

I'm not a preterist or futurist. I believe both stances were manufactured by the enemy to draw folks attention away from fingering a certain religious body/organization as the prophesied beast and Woman, respectively.

But I was reading through the posts on this thread and I'm not sure if I missed someone pointing it out, but what about the principle found in Psalms 30:4 and 2 Peter 3:2 that says "a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day" in God's eyes? It seems as though this would make the 1000 years detailed in Revelation more than symbolic.

Here's what I mean...Let's go back to Genesis 2:17 where God warns Adam...


But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Now clearly after Adam ate of the forbidden fruit he didn't die that very day...or did he? From whose perspective are we looking at this warning? Now many - including myself - have previously read this warning symbolically or spiritually, or at best associated it with "physical mortality". And while, yes, truly when Adam ate the fruit he noticeably lost his glory and the mortality passed to all mankind, Adam ALSO *literally* died "in the day" of him eating the fruit exactly like God warned.

To God, 1 day = 1000 of our years...

In Genesis 5 we read of Adam living 930 years having sons and daughters before dying. 930 yrs is within the "day" (i.e. the first 1000 years) of Adam's life if we look at time from God's perspective. So truly "in the day" that Adam ate of the forbidden fruit, he died. "Let God be true and every man be a liar".

This sets a precedent that God is very accurate when it comes to measuring time. This precedent is reaffirmed in prophecies like the 70 Weeks prophecy given to Daniel regarding the birth of Christ & the reconciliation of Israel. It perfectly measures the time from the order to rebuild Jerusalem to the messiah (7 "sevens" and 62 "sevens" = 483 years).

I write all of this to prove that we can trust God when he gives time measurements. They're not symbolic.

----

So "1000 yrs of man = 1 day to God" is an actual principle for measuring time from God's perspective. And when we read passages throughout scripture regarding "the day of the Lord" and how that day will be a day of God's judgment, I think we're safe to assume we're actually talking about "a unique 1000 years of mankind when the Lord will judge the earth". Now where in all of scripture is a unique 1000 years of man, when the Lord will judge the earth, specifically described to begin but in Revelation 20 at the destruction of the enemies of God detailed in Revelation 19?

The "1000 year" reign IS the "day" of the lord.

So has this day happened yet? Well I ran a search online to find biblical passages referencing "the day of the Lord", and here are some notable characteristics of that "day" that stand out:

- The kings/nations of the earth will be gathered together to war against the Almighty
- Wrath and destruction; gloom
- Extermination of sinners; punish the world for evil
- Vengeance; when the Lord's enemies will be slaughtered
- Terror will fill the nations
- All will see the son of man in the clouds coming with his messengers
- Burning anger of God
- The earth and everything made will be melt with intense heat
- Destruction from the Almighty
- God will judge men's hearts
- He will save his people from his enemies
- God's people will feel no shame anymore


Zechariah 3:9
See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD Almighty, 'and I will remove the sin of the land (Heb. "erets" = "earth") in one day.

Zechariah says Almighty God will remove sin from the earth "in one day". Could this passage be talking about the same "day of the Lord"? "Removal of sin" sure does fit what happens on the "day of the Lord" as described in the list above.

In fact, we can also tie the STONE in this passage to the prophetic dream in Daniel 2, where Nebuchadnezzar's statue (representing ALL the nations of mankind) was finally struck down and crushed at the feet by "a *rock* from heaven not cut by human hands" which then grew into a great mountain. It's the same imagery.


Then we have Revelation 20:5-8 that says...
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


Now if we analyze this passage for a moment, it seems reasonable to suggest that Satan is spiritually bound - unable to deceive anyone for 1000 years - because all the "unrighteous" people who stood against the Lord and his army were just wiped out by Christ. So there's no one left alive who'd listen to that old serpent until after 1000 years are ended when the unrighteous people are resurrected and given another chance (to repent I assume). Until that happens satan's is spiritually jailed/bound/chained/prevented/powerless from deceiving because no one who could still be deceived is alive.


So to me there's not evidence to suggest the Lord's 1000 years has occurred just yet because there hasn't been a blood bath of all the nations, nor has there ever been a stretch of 1000 literal years when there was no evil in the world, nor is there any historical evidence of either of the two resurrections (before the 1000 years or after it).

...I think we're pretty close though.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Partial fulfillment can be found in the OT.

Tanakh, first of all, no, Revelation does not rely heavily on symbols from the OT. And second, there is no partial fulfillment, as these events of wrath will be unprecedented. Regarding the wrath to come, please consider the following:

"Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

"After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

In Rev.1:19, John is told to write what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

What you have seen: All of the information from Rev.1:1 to Rev.1:19

What is now: Represented by the letters to the churches, which also represents the entire church period

What will take place later: Takes place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are events that will be unprecedented. They will be used to bring about the fulfillment of God's wrath, which will decimate the majority of the population of the earth and dismantle all human government, in preparation for Christ's
thousand year reign.

The dismantling of all human government is demonstrated via Nebuchadnezzar's statue in Dan.2:31-45, with that ten-toed kingdom made of iron and partly baked clay being the last kingdom, ruled by the beast. The Rock/Messiah, falls on the feet of the statue (seals, trumpets and bowls) smashing the entire statue to pieces, like chaff on a threshing floor and the wind swept them away without leaving a trace i.e. the end of human government. But the rock that struck the statue becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth, which is symbolic for Christ's millennial kingdom.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, is what God is going to use in the major fulfillment of the day of the Lord, the hour of trial, which is not a day nor an hour in length, but represents that last seven years in fulfillment of the decree made upon Israel of seventy sevens. The day of the Lord, will fulfillment that last seven years, bringing that prophecy to an end and ushering in the millennial period. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will fulfill the following:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth, declares the
Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that
cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” - Zeph.1:1-3

"I will make man more scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold Ophir." - Isa.13:12

Now, before you or Angela attempt to tell me that the world is referring to only Israel, as some have asserted, I will be preemptive here by drawing your attention to the details recorded in the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements:

2nd Seal:
"When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword.

The results of this seal takes peace from the earth, making people kill one another. The reference to the rider being "given a large sword" is in reference to this event being world-wide campaign and does not only involve Israel.

4th Seal:
"When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth."

A fourth of the inhabitants being killed as a result of the 4th seal, would certainly encompass more than just Israel. For the whole nation of Israel doesn't even equal a fourth of the earth. If you were to base it on a population of 7 billion, a fourth would be approx. 1.7 billion people. I'm pretty sure that there is not even close to that number of people in Israel.

6th Seal:
Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

The kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty and the slave and free, is pretty much self explanatory in that, it is referring to all people of the earth and just Israel.

1st Trumpet:
"The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up."

Not a third of Israel, but a third of the earth will be burnt up and a third of the trees.

2nd Trumpet:
"The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

A third of the ships and a third of the creatures in the sea, which is representing a third over all of the earth. What I have garnered from this is that, whatever body of water this object hits, all of the ships will be destroyed and all of the creatures equaling a third of the ships on entire earth, as well as a third of the creatures over all the earth. Think of the world as a pie divided up into thirds.

3rd Trumpet:
"The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water—the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter."

Again, a third of the waters being made polluted is in reference to a third over all the earth, which means a third of the fresh water will be contaminated, with the result being many people dying. Due to the scale, this is not just Israel that these plagues of wrath are affecting.

4th Trumpet:
"The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night"

Is Israel the only nation that the sun, moon and stars shine on? Of course not. The light of these will all be darkened by God, so that the entire earth will only be receiving two thirds of its normal light both day and night, world-wide.

5th Trumpet:
"They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months.
"They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months.

These demonic beings that come up out of the Abyss will not be allowed to kill the inhabitants of the earth, but only to torment them. Only those with the seal of God in their foreheads will be protected from this plague of wrath, which would only be those 144,000, the first fruits out of Israel. Everyone else on the planet will be exposed to this plague.

6th Trumpet:
"And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. "

The results of this plague kills a third of what is left of the earth's inhabitants, not just the inhabitants of Israel, but over all the earth. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third respectively, the number would be approx. 4.5 billion people. And that is not counting trumpets 1,2 and 3 and that simply because the percentages of fatalities is just not given. But based on the affects of the first three trumpets, you could probably add at least another billion plus fatalities to the list.

1st Bowl:
"The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

The scripture states that the false prophet will cause all, both great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive the mark of the beast, which would be in reference to the inhabitants of entire world and not just Israel.

2nd Bowl:
"The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead person, and every living thing in the sea died."

Here at the 2nd and 3rd bowl judgments, God is going to turn all of the oceans and all of the rivers and fresh waters (except for the Euphrates) into literal blood, which needless to say, would affect the entire world and not just Israel.

3rd Bowl:
"The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood."

4th Bowl:
"The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire."

Again, does the sun only shine on Israel? No, of course not. Therefore, when this bowl is poured out, it will allow the sun to increase the temperatures world-wide, possibly by causing huge solar flares. How many fatalities will there be from this plague? One thing is for sure, it won't be just Israel that is affected.

Now, I posted all of this to get yours and others attention. These things are going to happen. They are not to be symbolized, for they are literal events of wrath that are going to take place and that world-wide. The other reason that I posted this is because I am tired of people saying "Revelation is all about Israel." They have no idea what they are talking about.

For those of you who believe that the Lord is going to allow His bride, the church, to go through all that is listed above, think again! The promise to come and gather believers will be before these plagues of wrath so that we will not be exposed to any of it.

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

And how will believers be saved from all of the above?:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Now, do you have an inkling of what God's wrath is about?

 

[Miri]

Hi Zone long time no see.

I don't know if the original question has been answered, unless I missed it when
skimming through the replies. Going back to your first post you have piqued my curiosity.

If Satan was locked up so he could not deceive the nations, what would that look
like on planet earth. Has there ever been a time on planet earth when nations haven't
been deceived?

Anyone can reply by the way I just wanted to say hello to Zone at the start.

Im asking because I don't know the answer myself apart from, that I cannot think of a
time when nations were not being deceived.

Although maybe the defination of "all nations" is the key? Does it literally mean
all nations or just certain key players?
Maybe nations refers to the tribes of Isreal for example?

Another thought if satan was locked up so he could not deceive the nations. Would
the nations continue to sin? So if they had been deceived and mis led previously,
would they continue to walk in that original deception even though satan was now
locked up. Maybe that's another key. Satan is out of the way, they then have a real
chance at listening to God's voice instead but will they? Maybe the locking away of
satan is a test for the nations to see if they will turn back to God. There would turn no
no excuse for people standing before God at judgement and saying they didn't know.

Actually maybe I've answered my own question, maybe satan was locked away after the
resurrection of Christ?

 

[Agricola]

So you believe it is literal?

3 Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.
4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.
5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.
Acts 3:3-5

The two witnesses are the two souls that testify that to all they had seen.

6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; [Prov 12:25] but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ancle bones received strength.
8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:
10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.
Acts 3:6-10



Goodness me, talk about cherry picking verses and shoe horning events to make your theology fit and work, but it does not work, just read revelation 11 again and tell me how what you describe fits into this. It clearly does not.

Revelation 11

3And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”[SUP][a]
[/SUP] [SUP]5 [/SUP]If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]But after the three and a half days the breath[SUP][b][/SUP] of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

 

[tanakh]

Tanakh, first of all, no, Revelation does not rely heavily on symbols from the OT. And second, there is no partial fulfillment, as these events of wrath will be unprecedented. Regarding the wrath to come, please consider the following:

"Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

"After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

In Rev.1:19, John is told to write what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

What you have seen: All of the information from Rev.1:1 to Rev.1:19

What is now: Represented by the letters to the churches, which also represents the entire church period

What will take place later: Takes place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are events that will be unprecedented. They will be used to bring about the fulfillment of God's wrath, which will decimate the majority of the population of the earth and dismantle all human government, in preparation for Christ's
thousand year reign.

The dismantling of all human government is demonstrated via Nebuchadnezzar's statue in Dan.2:31-45, with that ten-toed kingdom made of iron and partly baked clay being the last kingdom, ruled by the beast. The Rock/Messiah, falls on the feet of the statue (seals, trumpets and bowls) smashing the entire statue to pieces, like chaff on a threshing floor and the wind swept them away without leaving a trace i.e. the end of human government. But the rock that struck the statue becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth, which is symbolic for Christ's millennial kingdom.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, is what God is going to use in the major fulfillment of the day of the Lord, the hour of trial, which is not a day nor an hour in length, but represents that last seven years in fulfillment of the decree made upon Israel of seventy sevens. The day of the Lord, will fulfillment that last seven years, bringing that prophecy to an end and ushering in the millennial period. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will fulfill the following:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth, declares the
Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that
cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” - Zeph.1:1-3

"I will make man more scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold Ophir." - Isa.13:12

Now, before you or Angela attempt to tell me that the world is referring to only Israel, as some have asserted, I will be preemptive here by drawing your attention to the details recorded in the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements:

2nd Seal:
"When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword.

The results of this seal takes peace from the earth, making people kill one another. The reference to the rider being "given a large sword" is in reference to this event being world-wide campaign and does not only involve Israel.

4th Seal:
"When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth."

A fourth of the inhabitants being killed as a result of the 4th seal, would certainly encompass more than just Israel. For the whole nation of Israel doesn't even equal a fourth of the earth. If you were to base it on a population of 7 billion, a fourth would be approx. 1.7 billion people. I'm pretty sure that there is not even close to that number of people in Israel.

6th Seal:
Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

The kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty and the slave and free, is pretty much self explanatory in that, it is referring to all people of the earth and just Israel.

1st Trumpet:
"The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up."

Not a third of Israel, but a third of the earth will be burnt up and a third of the trees.

2nd Trumpet:
"The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

A third of the ships and a third of the creatures in the sea, which is representing a third over all of the earth. What I have garnered from this is that, whatever body of water this object hits, all of the ships will be destroyed and all of the creatures equaling a third of the ships on entire earth, as well as a third of the creatures over all the earth. Think of the world as a pie divided up into thirds.

3rd Trumpet:
"The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water—the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter."

Again, a third of the waters being made polluted is in reference to a third over all the earth, which means a third of the fresh water will be contaminated, with the result being many people dying. Due to the scale, this is not just Israel that these plagues of wrath are affecting.

4th Trumpet:
"The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night"

Is Israel the only nation that the sun, moon and stars shine on? Of course not. The light of these will all be darkened by God, so that the entire earth will only be receiving two thirds of its normal light both day and night, world-wide.

5th Trumpet:
"They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months.
"They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months.

These demonic beings that come up out of the Abyss will not be allowed to kill the inhabitants of the earth, but only to torment them. Only those with the seal of God in their foreheads will be protected from this plague of wrath, which would only be those 144,000, the first fruits out of Israel. Everyone else on the planet will be exposed to this plague.

6th Trumpet:
"And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. "

The results of this plague kills a third of what is left of the earth's inhabitants, not just the inhabitants of Israel, but over all the earth. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third respectively, the number would be approx. 4.5 billion people. And that is not counting trumpets 1,2 and 3 and that simply because the percentages of fatalities is just not given. But based on the affects of the first three trumpets, you could probably add at least another billion plus fatalities to the list.

1st Bowl:
"The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

The scripture states that the false prophet will cause all, both great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive the mark of the beast, which would be in reference to the inhabitants of entire world and not just Israel.

2nd Bowl:
"The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead person, and every living thing in the sea died."

Here at the 2nd and 3rd bowl judgments, God is going to turn all of the oceans and all of the rivers and fresh waters (except for the Euphrates) into literal blood, which needless to say, would affect the entire world and not just Israel.

3rd Bowl:
"The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood."

4th Bowl:
"The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire."

Again, does the sun only shine on Israel? No, of course not. Therefore, when this bowl is poured out, it will allow the sun to increase the temperatures world-wide, possibly by causing huge solar flares. How many fatalities will there be from this plague? One thing is for sure, it won't be just Israel that is affected.

Now, I posted all of this to get yours and others attention. These things are going to happen. They are not to be symbolized, for they are literal events of wrath that are going to take place and that world-wide. The other reason that I posted this is because I am tired of people saying "Revelation is all about Israel." They have no idea what they are talking about.

For those of you who believe that the Lord is going to allow His bride, the church, to go through all that is listed above, think again! The promise to come and gather believers will be before these plagues of wrath so that we will not be exposed to any of it.

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

And how will believers be saved from all of the above?:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Now, do you have an inkling of what God's wrath is about?

The details in the book of revelation are derived from OT Scriptures. If symbols are not used are we to expect a seven headed beast to come out of the sea and locusts with human faces and women's hair. Will we shake hands with the whore of Babylon or the two witnesses with flame thrower mouths?

 

[tanakh]

Somebody here needs a snickers bar....maybe two....and it's not the blue color people.

Do you mean Smurfs? I wonder what they live on if its not Snickers?

 

[zone]

21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd:
they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.


25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant,
wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children,
and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant
with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.


27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be
in the midst of them for evermore.

all but 27/28 fulfilled.
Christ came, and made a covenant of peace (see Daniel 9).
James said the gentiles coming in was the proof that God had included and expanded David's tent.
the making of two into one was complete (excluding unbelievers)
next comes New Jerusalem.
us in His sanctuary forever.
you could even say we are already in it - Hebrews does.

Galatians 4:26
But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

Hebrews 11:10
For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

Hebrews 11:16
Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews 12:22
Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels

Rev 21:2
A New Heaven and a New Earth
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will live with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.…

 

[notmyown]

Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my officers had struggled that I might not be delivered up to Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence.' (JN 18:36 YLT)

do we believe this? Christ's kingdom is not a geopolitical kingdom, never has been.

if we believe this--


For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Is 9:6)

why don't we believe this?

Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this. (Is 9:7)

or this?

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."

 

[Stephen63]

With the analogy of this symbolic "thousand years", you'd think at least one of the liberal editions would have said something else, but they didn't. Even the paraphrases say "a thousand years".

One thing about symbolism..... it is it doesn't variate. For example, when the word "dragon" appears, it's almost always speaks of Satan.

What we find here is that a "thousand years" hasn't been used nowhere else in scripture to mean a long period of time. Never.

 

[masmpg]

3and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. - Rev 20

I suspect that even the release has been initiated.

This here is not the same as this here Luke:10:18: "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." which is the same as this here Revelation:12:12: "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." Same idea but wrong time frame. The verse you quoted in revelation 20 takes place after the 1000 years, just before the judgment of the wicked when death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire. The verses I quoted happened at the cross when satan was cast out of heaven according to John in revelation 12:12.

 

[LaurenTM]

Yeah I know. Probably go with the kingdom of God in our hearts symbolism. Preterism forces some real gymnastics on ones eschatology. Mix in a little oneness theology and you get real far afield.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

interesting how they will not just come out and say what they are

you can start to get a whiff of it now...pretty strong too

 

[Ahwatukee]

This here is not the same as this here Luke:10:18: "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." which is the same as this here Revelation:12:12: "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." Same idea but wrong time frame. The verse you quoted in revelation 20 takes place after the 1000 years, just before the judgment of the wicked when death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire. The verses I quoted happened at the cross when satan was cast out of heaven according to John in revelation 12:12.

Morning masmpg,

I'm just sharing information here and so I hope that it is received as such. I am in agreement with you regarding Luke 10:18 and Rev.20:1-3 not being the same event. However, Luke 10:18 and Rev.12:12 are not the same events either. In Revelation trumpets 5,6 and 7 are referred to as woes - see Rev.8:13,9:12 & 11:14. The reason that they are referred to as woes, is because each of these trumpets is demonic in nature:

5th trumpet - demonic beings released from the Abyss

6th Trumpet - Four evil angels/demons and 200 million demons kill a third of mankind

7th Trumpet - Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth

I said all of that to say this, the 7th trumpet is when Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven, which you referred to as being the same as Luke 10:18. However, in order for that to be true, we would have had to experience all of the seals and the first four trumpets. Just taking in consideration the first two woes, which are trumpets 5 & 6, we should have seen the Abyss opened and those demonic beings tormenting the inhabitants of the earth with stings like that of scorpions for five months, according to the scripture. And regarding the 6th trumpet, we would have had to have seen a third of the inhabitants of the earth killed by the fire, sulfur and smoke which proceeds from the mouths of the demonic beings.

Following these two trumpets/woes would then come the 7th trumpet/3rd woe, which would be Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth. But as I pointed out, prior to this, we would have had to have seen the results of trumpets 5 and 6 first. I believe that Luke 10:18 may be referring to Satan's original fall and not to Rev.12:12.


I hope that this is beneficial to you

 

[zone]

Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my officers had struggled that I might not be delivered up to Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence.' (JN 18:36 YLT)

do we believe this? Christ's kingdom is not a geopolitical kingdom, never has been.

if we believe this--


For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Is 9:6)

why don't we believe this?

Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this. (Is 9:7)

or this?

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."

out standing in the field again, el?

 

[zone]

With the analogy of this symbolic "thousand years", you'd think at least one of the liberal editions would have said something else, but they didn't. Even the paraphrases say "a thousand years".

One thing about symbolism..... it is it doesn't variate. For example, when the word "dragon" appears, it's almost always speaks of Satan.

What we find here is that a "thousand years" hasn't been used nowhere else in scripture to mean a long period of time. Never.

contradictory.
the dragon is meant to represent satan, but satan is not a dragon, he is a cherubim.
so God uses symbolic imagery to tell the truth.
you have to be willing to let God speak as He will.
apocalyptic devices are NOT the norm, and should be compared one with the other.

 

[zone]

This here is not the same as this here Luke:10:18: "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." which is the same as this here Revelation:12:12: "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." Same idea but wrong time frame. The verse you quoted in revelation 20 takes place after the 1000 years, just before the judgment of the wicked when death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire. The verses I quoted happened at the cross when satan was cast out of heaven according to John in revelation 12:12.

I do not and have not argued against your position here.
I happen to agree with it.
however, Jesus made it plain to the Pharisees that He had BOUND the strong man satan already at that time.
if He could do it then, and we accept it, why don't we accept that it fits the exact same narrative as Rev (which is merely a SUMMARY) of everything we already learned.

 

[zone]

interesting how they will not just come out and say what they are

you can start to get a whiff of it now...pretty strong too

i'll say what I believe.
here - try this: