what has been fulfilled?

[abcdef]

Brother Ahwatukee,

Good day abcedf (John),



There has been no other resurrection in that immortal and glorified body other Jesus.

We don't fulfill those bodies until after death is destroyed and the kingdom is delivered up to the Father.

Then we drink it new in His FATHERS kingdom.

The resurrection of the OT saints has not taken place yet.

They resurrected when Jesus did. Eph 4:8

I am assuming that regarding those that "are seen in heaven with Jesus" that you are referring to Rev.7:9-17, which, for one, are identified as those from every tribe, people, language and nation, Gentiles.

Yes, and the 144000, all Israel from the OT.

(and the 24 elders, the martyrs of the 5th seal)

And two, the elder makes clear that these are saints who will have come out of the great tribulation,

It does not call them saints R 7:14
--
The great trib refers to Rome.

In 96 AD the trouble was Rome.

It is the 4th beast.

The time of the 4th beast started when Rome invaded.

This is the trouble referred to here.

--

The time of great trib was from 70 AD until 1967, when Israel was restored to Jerusalem. (the 2nd 3 1/2 t's)

which is still future.

Past

Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection and the church is next.

True, but after that, it is the end 1 Cor 15:23-24.

After that, the male child, which is a collective name for the 144,000, who will be snatched up to God and his throne.

The male child is Jesus.

There is no scriptural evidence to support the claim that the male child represents the 144000, no connection that I can see, do you have one?

The two witnesses will also be resurrected at the middle of that last seven years.

When the 2 witnesses are resurrected, within the hour, life on this planet ends.

And then after Christ returns to the earth to end the age, those who will have died in the great tribulation will be resurrected, as recorded in Rev.20:4-6. These resurrections are all apart of the first resurrection. The resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years, is not apart of the first resurrection, but will be of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history.

Jn 5:28, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice.

V 29, "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Which resurrection is this?

There is no resurrection at the 7th trumpet, for that is a plague of wrath and there is no mention of a resurrection anywhere in the context.

The 2 witnesses after 3 1/2 days?

R 11:18, "....and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,...."

You are only misapplying the 7th trumpet as a resurrection because scripture states that the dead will be raised and the living will be changed at the last trumpet. Your error is interpreting the 7th trumpet as being synonymous with the "last trumpet" and that only because they both have the words "trumpet" in them. The trumpet judgments are apart of God's wrath and have nothing to do with the resurrection.

The 7th trump ends with Jesus coming, (the ark is seen) and the resurrection.

After the resurrection it is the end.

The other problem by your Implying that the 7th trumpet as being where the resurrection of the church takes place is that, you would have put the church through the majority of God's wrath, which the church is not appointed to suffer. In fact, the 7th trumpet is the last of the three woes, which are against the inhabitants of the earth.

Yes, the Pentecost Kingdom went through the time period of 70 AD - 1967

No one has been resurrected into those immortal and glorified bodies yet except for Jesus.

I think, that you have said, that you believe that when a Christian dies, that they go directly to heaven and are with Jesus, (I disagree),

Are their souls given immortal and glorified bodies at that time?

If they are, then Jesus isn't the only one is He?

Saints would have been receiving immortal and glorified bodies for years now.

 

[plainguy]

Good day EG,

It is not that the Jews need to be following the law today, but because they did not receive Christ as their Messiah, they are still waiting for him to appear for the first time. That being the case, as far as they are concerned, the are sill under the law given to Moses.

Israel is in this position because of the decree given upon them of seventy seven year periods. Sixty-nine of those seventy sevens were fulfilled when the Messiah was cut of, Christ crucified. At that time God paused that last seven years for a future fulfillment to end the age and began to build the church. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear and gather His church, which will be followed by that ruler, the antichrist establishing his seven year covenant with Israel. It is during this time that God will take up where He left off with Israel, temple sacrifices and all, in fulfillment of that last seven years.

Regarding animal sacrifices during the millennium, though I know that Christ paid the penalty for sins by the shedding of His blood, I must also consider the rest of the word of God, namely Ezekiel 40 thru 48. These chapters are specifically regarding a temple whose dimensions do not match any of the previous temples, nor does it fit the dimensions of the new Jerusalem. Therefore, the only time that this temple could be referring to as existing would be the millennial period. That said, within those chapters the dimensions of the temple are given in detail, as well as instructions for sacrificing and the rooms for preparing the sacrifices, as well as the priests rooms. It also gives the land allotments, from where to where, for each of the twelve tribes, which is nothing like the allotments that they were given in the old testament.

The reason for sacrificing during the millennial period, I have no answer for. All that I do know is that, scripture gives a detailed account of a temple that does not match Solomon's or any other rebuilt temple, nor of the new Jerusalem, which is not a temple, but a city. And since we have not seen this temple with these dimensions any time in history, the only place that it could come about is during the millennial period. Read Ezk.40 thru 48 and you will see what I am talking about. It is completely different than Solomon's temple or any of the rebuilt versions.

The only thing that I have ever heard regarding this is that, many scholars believe that the sacrifices during the millennial period, based on those chapters in Ezekiel, will be done as a memorial. The fact is that, because of the information written in Ezekiel regarding this temple, I consider the possibility that there will be animal sacrifices during the millennium.

The OT animal sacrifices were always performed by the ruling high priest. In Hebrews 4:14, we are told that Jesus Christ is now our great high priest. In this earthly millennial kingdom you speak of (with Jesus Christ sitting on the throne of David as per your understanding), who other than Jesus Christ Himself will be allowed to perform these future animal sacrifices ? Does this not sound absurd to you ? Think .. and reason within yourself what the absurdity of your beliefs can only conclude.

Hosea 6:6 ... For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Isaiah 1:11 ... The multitude of your sacrifices-- what are they to Me?" says the LORD. I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

 

[PlainWord]

Good day abcedf (John),



There has been no other resurrection in that immortal and glorified body other Jesus. The resurrection of the OT saints has not taken place yet. I am assuming that regarding those that "are seen in heaven with Jesus" that you are referring to Rev.7:9-17, which, for one, are identified as those from every tribe, people, language and nation, Gentiles. And two, the elder makes clear that these are saints who will have come out of the great tribulation, which is still future.

Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection and the church is next. After that, the male child, which is a collective name for the 144,000, who will be snatched up to God and his throne. The two witnesses will also be resurrected at the middle of that last seven years. And then after Christ returns to the earth to end the age, those who will have died in the great tribulation will be resurrected, as recorded in Rev.20:4-6. These resurrections are all apart of the first resurrection. The resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years, is not apart of the first resurrection, but will be of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history.

There is no resurrection at the 7th trumpet, for that is a plague of wrath and there is no mention of a resurrection anywhere in the context. You are only misapplying the 7th trumpet as a resurrection because scripture states that the dead will be raised and the living will be changed at the last trumpet. Your error is interpreting the 7th trumpet as being synonymous with the "last trumpet" and that only because they both have the words "trumpet" in them. The trumpet judgments are apart of God's wrath and have nothing to do with the resurrection.

The other problem by your Implying that the 7th trumpet as being where the resurrection of the church takes place is that, you would have put the church through the majority of God's wrath, which the church is not appointed to suffer. In fact, the 7th trumpet is the last of the three woes, which are against the inhabitants of the earth.

No one has been resurrected into those immortal and glorified bodies yet except for Jesus.

I agree that only Jesus has been bodily resurrected so far. At the Cross, the OT saints souls were freed and allowed to go to heaven. As 1 Cor 15 tells us, it's Jesus, then everyone else at His coming. THAT MEANS EVERYONE ELSE. When He comes, it's game, set, match.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

There is no ambiguity in this passage. There is no first, or second resurrection taught here. ALL SHALL BE MADE ALIVE, HOW? In Christ, right?? When??? At His coming. Not at His rapture and then again after the Tribulation, then again after the Millennium. That would make 3 more resurrections. Only one more is taught.

People confuse this passage with Rev 20:4-6. A different concept is being taught there.

In Rev 20, we have the concept of the physical and spiritual life and death being discussed. Once a believer accepts Christ, he/she experiences the first resurrection, the spiritual one, as we "put to death the old man." This is a concept John teaches in depth in his apostle. For those who partake in the first resurrection (the spiritual one), the second death (the spiritual one) will have no power. That's all Rev 20 is saying. It isn't talking about two physical resurrections, it is talking about one spiritual, one physical resurrection.

The rest of the dead not living again refers to those who did not partake in the first resurrection, the spiritual one.

 

[PlainWord]

You see, there is no millennial reign of Christ on earth taught. He is reigning with souls.

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for athousand years.

Souls are found in heaven. They will not be found on earth again because they will be resurrected the next time they are on earth. John saw souls in heaven. Dan 7 tells us that when Christ returned to heaven following the Cross and ascension, He was taken to the Ancient of Days (God the Father) and given an endless Kingdom. The below tells us Christ is reigning in heaven with souls right now!!

[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.

You see, this is happening now. Christ has dominion over a kingdom of all peoples and nations and we, the Church, are serving Him right now!! Whether we are dead or alive, we are spiritually alive and with Him serving Him right now as a spiritual kingdom, as His Temple, all of us, dead or alive.

The 1,000 years of Rev 20 is a meaningless amount of time because this time is found in heaven where there is no time. There is no sun or earth to revolve around it, thus no time dimension is found there. In earth years, Christ has been reigning nearly 2,000 years now. He has been reigning with those who lost their heads almost as long.

The Beast is very old, 4,000 years old. The Harlot it carries has roots back to Egypt but today is manifested as ISLAM. Belonging to the Beast (having its mark, name or number) isn't some future event, it has been going on for 4,000 years and those who are part of this Beast/Harlot worship system have a very bad fate awaiting them.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Once a believer accepts Christ, he/she experiences the first resurrection, the spiritual one, as we "put to death the old man."

I keep telling you that, there is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection. The word anastasis, translated Resurrection, always and only has to do with the body standing up again. Paul reference to believers be seated in heavenly places is not a resurrection, but is in reference to our places in heaven being sure i.e. reserved. That is of course unless you want claim that you are already sitting there?

And regarding Rev.20:4-6, only the saints who will have died during great tribulation will be resurrected there. What you have not understood and continue to reject, is that there are phases or stages to the first resurrection, Christ the first fruits, the church at his coming, the male child/144,000, the two witnesses and after Christ comes, the great tribulation saints. All of these fall under the banner of first resurrection.

The second death is not a spiritual one. At the end of the thousand years, the unrighteous from every walk of history will be resurrected just as scripture states, that there will be a resurrection of both righteous and the unrighteous. Those who are resurrected at the end of the thousand years will receive a resurrected body fit to endure their punishment in the lake of fire.

I'm not going to bother posting the definition of the word "anastasis" because you don't pay any attention to it. The word means to stand up again in the same body.

Your other error is that you don't understand the coming wrath of God, as you have reduced it to just 45 days. Another error regarding the wrath of God, is that you don't recognize the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as being the wrath of God. You'll know that I was telling you the truth regarding every aspect of end-time events when you see that political leader establish a seven year agreement with Israel, which will be followed by their building the temple. When you see these things taking place, then you can count on the rest of the end-time events taking place that I have proclaimed here. But until they actually take place, they are just words. Unfortunately, you will have to see them taking place for yourself before you will believe. And I can guarantee you, the great tribulation is much longer than 45 days and the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will make up God's wrath.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You see, there is no millennial reign of Christ on earth taught. He is reigning with souls.

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

These are those great tribulation saints who will have been killed for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God. And who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. This group is not the church. This is the same group that was revealed to John in Rev.7:9-17 which no man could count. Rev.20:4-6 is where they are resurrected.

As proof that the group of Rev.20:4-6 is not the church, Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of Jesus returning to the earth to end the age and that army riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean, will be the bride/church who will have previously resurrected. In Rev.19:6-8, the church/bride is seen receiving her white linen, fine and clean at the wedding supper, which takes place in heaven and is the same clothing that the army on white horses is wearing. In Rev.17:14, the church following Christ out of heaven is also referred to as His "called, chosen and faithful followers."


Therefore, you have to ask yourself the question, how can the bride/church be following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and also be those who resurrected in Rev.20:4-6 which takes place after Christ returns to the earth.

This is why it is important to cross-reference and compare scripture in order to see the whole picture. And if you say that you are, you are not and that because of your claims don't match up with all of the scriptures.

 

[PennEd]

There are several members here that seem to adhere to this doctrine that either there is no 1000 yr reign on earth by Christ, and/or the related "replacement theology" doctrine that says all of God's OT promises and prophecies about Israel became null and void when they corporately rejected Jesus, and therefore are transferred to the Church.

Some of these members I greatly respect, but perhaps they are unaware of some of the OP's positions regarding the Jews.

When you go down this replacement theology road you are confronted with the uncomfortable reality that the Jews are back in the land, NOW, TODAY, and they call their nation ISRAEL.

So you have to come up with all sorts of mental gymnastics to rationalize away how and why they are there. After all, ALL THIS STUFF WAS FULFILLED! (NOT!)

Then you get crazy rationalizations like the Jews there today aren't really Jews at all, but the one I can't abide or passively let go, which the OP has been nibbling at again ever so slowly is Holocaust denial!

I don't know if the Lord has softened her heart in her several year hiatus from here, but I distinctly remember her vacillating between no holocaust at all, and quibbling over whether it was 6,000,000 Jews or 1,000,000 Jews gassed and incinerated.

Look, the blood of Christ is what has cleansed us of our sin, and I'm sure we are in agreement of that, but I felt it necessary to have all the facts out there before throwing your lot in with this, in my view, heretical, satanic, "replacement theology" stuff.

 

[ZEEK]

What are God's OT promises about Israel?

 

[zone]

per penned's inflammatory post:

The history of Khazaria presents us with a fascinating example of how Jewish life flourished in the Middle Ages. In a time when Jews were persecuted thruout Christian Europe, the kingdom of Khazaria was a beacon of hope. Jews were able to flourish in Khazaria because of the tolerance of the Khazar rulers, who invited Byzantine and Persian Jewish refugees to settle in their country. Due to the influence of these refugees, the Khazars found the Jewish religion to be appealing and adopted Judaism in large numbers.....

An Introduction to the History of Khazaria

take your issues up with the jews at khazaria . com

 

[PennEd]

I notice you didn't mention the holocaust. Do you still deny 6,000,000 Jews were slaughtered by the nazis?

Perhaps the Lord has softened your heart about that. If so I'd very happy.

 

[plainguy]

Most don't realize that approx. half of the 6 million Poles killed during the holocaust were actually Polish Christians. I say this not to minimize the horror bestowed upon those Jews during this terrible time in human history but to shed light on the fact that there were also approx. 16 - 20 million non-combatant gentile victims of this atrocity as well, depending on the source. Nobody will ever know with certainty. An interesting article written by Karen Silverstrim ... Overlooked Millions: Non-Jewish Victims of the Holocaust (linked below)

Table 1
Estimates of Non-Combatant Lives Lost During the Holocaust​

Ukrainians 5.5 - 7 million
Jews (of all countries) 6 million +
Russian POWs 3.3 million +
Russian Civilians 2 million +
Poles 3 million +
Yugoslavians 1.5 million +
Gypsies 200,000 - 500,000
Mentally/Physically Disabled 70,000- 250,000
Homosexuals Tens of thousands
Spanish Republicans Tens of thousands
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500 - 5,000
Boy and Girl Scouts, Clergy, Communists, Czechs, Deportees, Greeks, Political Prisoners, Other POWs, Resistance Fighters, Serbs, Socialists, Trade Unionists, Others Unknown

http://www.ukemonde.com/holocaust/victims.html

 

[zone]

MOD:

could you pls close this thread?
its gone far afield from what I intended.
thanks.

 

[PennEd]

Many, if not most threads, vary to some degree from the OP's original intent. You didn't mind straying from the original intent while talking about Israel only surviving it's wars because of American help.

I truly pray you have changed your mind regarding the slaughter of 6 million Jews, BECAUSE THEY WERE JEWS, in WWII.

I contend that the fact that the Jews are in fact back in part of the land God gave them,CALLING IT ISRAEL, remains a HUGE quandary for those that believe all prophecy has been fulfilled or that the promises made to the Jews re null and void. And because it remains such a thorn in the replacement theologians side, it has resulted in horrific antisemitism throughout the centuries, culminating in the holocaust, and now in holocaust denial.

 

[zone]

Many, if not most threads, vary to some degree from the OP's original intent. You didn't mind straying from the original intent while talking about Israel only surviving it's wars because of American help.

I truly pray you have changed your mind regarding the slaughter of 6 million Jews, BECAUSE THEY WERE JEWS, in WWII.

I contend that the fact that the Jews are in fact back in part of the land God gave them,CALLING IT ISRAEL, remains a HUGE quandary for those that believe all prophecy has been fulfilled or that the promises made to the Jews re null and void. And because it remains such a thorn in the replacement theologians side, it has resulted in horrific antisemitism throughout the centuries, culminating in the holocaust, and now in holocaust denial.

this will be my last post to you Pened.

its ironic because the "jews are separate" ppl like yourself don't seem to be aware that your belief (dispensationalsim) is anti-Semitic at its base, and throughout.

you figure it out yourself.

your position is heresy.

goodbye.

 

[PennEd]

this will be my last post to you Pened.

its ironic because the "jews are separate" ppl like yourself don't seem to be aware that your belief (dispensationalsim) is anti-Semitic at its base, and throughout.

you figure it out yourself.

your position is heresy.

goodbye.

As I've said before, the ONLY time I can remember getting angry on CC was when you laid out your case that there was no holocaust, then maybe there was a little one, but only a million died, not 6 million.

My Uncle was among those who went to one of the liberated death camps. On the very rare occasion he tried to talk about it, he broke down into a pile of tears and horror at it's memory. This was a man who fought in the battle of the Bulge, and saw many horrors. NOTHING matched what he saw at the death camps.

I remember we had a neighbor who had a death camp tattoo on her arm that my mother tried to explain to me as a child. Knowing what her brother went through made it difficult for her.

I don't know what your position is on the holocaust today, but I do know that a lot of the antisemitism from the church is rooted in this replacement theology doctrine.

NONE of this, BTW, means that I believe the Jews in Israel today are Godly or saved. For the most part they are either an atheistic bunch, or the most extreme legalists you can find, BUT the Lord WILL save a remnant of the ones He has regathered A SECOND TIME.

 

[PlainWord]

I keep telling you that, there is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection

Then God help us, because we are lost forever!! It's the figurative meaning of the same word. I keep telling you that my dear friend.

 

[prove-all]

What are God's OT promises about Israel?

recap of God’s Promises to Abrahams seed, or physical descendants
¦Genesis 12:1-2 | God promises Abraham that his descendants will become a great nation.
¦Genesis 17:1-6 | God promises Abraham will be a father of many nations, not just one.
¦Genesis 22:16-18 | God promises that the birthright nations among Abraham’s descendants
will possess the gates (access points) of their enemies.
¦Genesis 26:3-5 | God promises the birthright nations will multiply as the stars of heaven.
¦Genesis 27:26-29 | God promises the birthright nations will become wealthy and rule over other nations.
¦Genesis 28:13-14 | God promises that the birthright nations will spread worldwide.
¦Genesis 35:11 | God promises that the birthright nations will become “a nation and a company of nations.”


Genesis 48, Abraham’s grandson Jacob—whom God renamed Israel—
specifically assigned his name to Ephraim and Manasseh,
saying that one of these descendants would become a “great” people,
and that the other would become a “multitude of nations” .



-


“By myself have I sworn, saith the [Eternal],
because thou hast done,not withheld thy only son

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will
multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand
which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gates of
his enemies.

The promise now is [unconditional].

This legacy guaranteed on the authority of God Almighty
unconditionally, multitudinous population,untold wealth
and material resources, national greatness
and world power!owning enemys [sea] gates


-


The spiritual promises,the promises of the “one seed,”Christ,
and of salvation through Him—Bible calls the scepter.

But the material and national promises relating to many
nations, national wealth, prosperity and power, and possession
of the Holy Land, the Bible calls the birthright.



Both the birthright and the scepter were repromised
by the Eternal to Abraham and Isaac and to Jacob.



The sceptre shall not depart from Judah …” (Genesis 49:10).
But the birthright was Joseph’s” (1 Chronicles 5:2).

 

[PlainWord]

Once a believer accepts Christ, he/she experiences the first resurrection, the spiritual one, as we "put to death the old man."

I keep telling you that, there is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection. The word anastasis, translated Resurrection, always and only has to do with the body standing up again. Paul reference to believers be seated in heavenly places is not a resurrection, but is in reference to our places in heaven being sure i.e. reserved. That is of course unless you want claim that you are already sitting there?

And regarding Rev.20:4-6, only the saints who will have died during great tribulation will be resurrected there. What you have not understood and continue to reject, is that there are phases or stages to the first resurrection, Christ the first fruits, the church at his coming, the male child/144,000, the two witnesses and after Christ comes, the great tribulation saints. All of these fall under the banner of first resurrection.

The second death is not a spiritual one. At the end of the thousand years, the unrighteous from every walk of history will be resurrected just as scripture states, that there will be a resurrection of both righteous and the unrighteous. Those who are resurrected at the end of the thousand years will receive a resurrected body fit to endure their punishment in the lake of fire.

I'm not going to bother posting the definition of the word "anastasis" because you don't pay any attention to it. The word means to stand up again in the same body.

Your other error is that you don't understand the coming wrath of God, as you have reduced it to just 45 days. Another error regarding the wrath of God, is that you don't recognize the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as being the wrath of God. You'll know that I was telling you the truth regarding every aspect of end-time events when you see that political leader establish a seven year agreement with Israel, which will be followed by their building the temple. When you see these things taking place, then you can count on the rest of the end-time events taking place that I have proclaimed here. But until they actually take place, they are just words. Unfortunately, you will have to see them taking place for yourself before you will believe. And I can guarantee you, the great tribulation is much longer than 45 days and the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will make up God's wrath.

Brother Ahwatukee,

The biggest problem you have is your failure to understand that much of prophesy is written in figurative language. Jesus even tells us this right here.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]“These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father.

One of the figurative lessons deals with the concept of "putting to death the old man and becoming new (saved) creatures" which is found many places including here:

John 3:4

Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Was our fathers (old man) crucified with Christ? No!! Because you are unable or unwilling to understand this, you are missing out on many spiritual lessons. Don't tell me there is no spiritual resurrection because clearly there is.

Do you know what it means to have a new birth? Can you have this new birth unless the old self dies?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

I really encourage you to read the Apostle John again until you understand this concept because John also wrote Revelation and his lessons are apparent there as well.

As for the Wrath, again, it is you who doesn't understand. The Great Tribulation is aimed only at Israel and lasts < 45 days as taught by Daniel. God's wrath comes in response. We don't know how long God's wrath lasts but it happens during "the Day of the Lord."

I don't recognize the seals, trumpets and bowls as God's wrath because some are, some aren't. You will find some wrath in the 6th seal, 6th trumpet and all Bowls. When you get to 7-7-7 it's game over.

 

[PlainWord]

These are those great tribulation saints who will have been killed for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God. And who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark. This group is not the church. This is the same group that was revealed to John in Rev.7:9-17 which no man could count. Rev.20:4-6 is where they are resurrected.

Indeed, they are not Great Tribulation Saints. Here is another concept you fail to understand.

There are two types of Tribulation mentioned by Jesus in Mat 24:

1) tribulation that believers have been enduring since the days of Christ. This is the tribulation we are promised. Not every Christian is fortunate enough to suffer for Christ. In the USA and other "Christian nations" we've had it easy.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you.

So, this tribulation or persecution is the one which resulted in the souls of the martyred saints mentioned in Rev 20. What makes these saints special (other than their martyrdom which is special enough), is that they were given the choice to join Satan's beast and its false religion, or stay true to Jesus and die. This has been going on in the middle east since at least the 7th century and continues to this day.

The "Beast" as I have taught here many times, is a 7-headed (7 historic empires) beast which is 4,000 years old. This "Beast" is Satanic and has been carrying or supporting Satan's #1 false religion (which morphs slightly with each Beast) throughout time. For the first 2,000 years the Beast persecuted just Jews, because there were no Christians. But now the Beast persecutes and kills Christians also.

2) Then there is the Great Tribulation of Israel, which is the all-out attacked mentioned in Dan 11:31-45, Mat 24:15-28, and Ez 38-39. You continue to confuse the Great Tribulation of Israel with the tribulation of the church. They are totally different concepts.

 

[PlainWord]

Zone,

Let's get back to the topic of "what has (and hasn't) been fulfilled.

The most important thing to determine is whether or not Dan 11:31-45 and by extension Mat 24:15-28 has been fulfilled. I keep going back to this passage and looking for fulfillment.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

I cannot for the life of my tie this passage (along with Dan 11:31) to AD 70 events even though those events are so close as to be considered a dual prophesy. Clearly AD 70 was the worst tribulation Israel has ever endured to date. Clearly, sacrifices had been ceased and the Roman troops indeed defiled the holy of holies by sacrificing to their standards there. But the days given in Dan 12 to not line up.

I am sourcing this: Wars between the Jews and Romans

According to the above, these were the dates:

4/14/0070 - Seize of Jerusalem began
7/14/0070 - Sacrifices in the Temple ceased
8/10/0070 - temple (sanctuary) was burned
9/8/0070 - War is over, Titus has total control of the city

I cannot match up the 1,290 days from the time of the defiling to the sacrifices being stopped. I cannot make any sense of the blessing that those who lasted to day 1,335 received. Without this, I have to conclude that we are still looking to the future.