What is a church?

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GaryA

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Aug 10, 2019
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While it's true Catholicism isn't the true universal church, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
You can if the 'baby' was invented by Catholicism for all of the wrong reasons.

The Bible does teach one, universal church and body.
The only thing the Bible teaches that may even remotely resemble something that can be called "universal" is a 'spiritual' realm assembly in heaven - the entire complete whole body of Christ - there is no such 'church' on earth. On earth, there are only local churches - which are-or-may-be a 'subset' of the afore-mentioned 'spiritual' chuch.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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You can if the 'baby' was invented by Catholicism for all of the wrong reasons.


The only thing the Bible teaches that may even remotely resemble something that can be called "universal" is a 'spiritual' realm assembly in heaven - the entire complete whole body of Christ - there is no such 'church' on earth. On earth, there are only local churches - which are-or-may-be a 'subset' of the afore-mentioned 'spiritual' chuch.
I've already poste five scriptures that make my point very clearly. I'm not going to keep repeating myself; you're welcome to go back and read them if you're interested. I know what the Bible says; I don't recognize what you're saying.
 

GaryA

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Aug 10, 2019
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I've already poste five scriptures that make my point very clearly. I'm not going to keep repeating myself; you're welcome to go back and read them if you're interested. I know what the Bible says; I don't recognize what you're saying.
Fair enough - and, I have written an explanation on that web page I posted a link to that you are more than welcome to read if you wish. (Which exists partially so that I do not have to repeat myself. And, if I do, I can just post the URL again.)

:coffee:
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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o_O I find it difficult to believe you even said this...

No they do not - when have you ever even heard of all Catholics being assembled together in the same place?

Don't change your definition(s) based on group or creed - wharever applies to Baptists also applies to Catholics - or any other group.

Do you not define 'visible' in terms of it being a 'physical' assembly of people together in one location?
I do define an assembly that way. But for Catholics they have each visible individual person in one huge mass of all Catholics. So it's universal, visible that way.

You can see that way being described in the likes of Real Churches or a Fog by S E Anderson or My Church..by J Moody
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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The only thing the Bible teaches that may even remotely resemble something that can be called "universal" is a 'spiritual' realm assembly in heaven - the entire complete whole body of Christ - there is no such 'church' on earth.
Who said it was on earth? On earth you have churches as seen in Revelation 2 & 3.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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Who said it was on earth?
1) Catholicism
2) Protestantism

Both consider the 'Universal Church' to be a world-wide all-members-included physical realm church on the earth.

On earth you have churches as seen in Revelation 2 & 3.
Yes - and, we call them 'local New Testament churches'.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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Maybe, if the only scriptures you ever read are in 1 Corinthians 12.
Right, so that isnt the only scripture showing this.

Matthew 16:18 Jesus will build His church.

Mathew 18:17... this is a church that can be spoken to and has a process for discipline of wayward believers (18:18-20)

It is the same kind of church.

Jesus wouldn't introduce the church one way and then contradict Himself.

So that is another part.

There is alot more
 

FredVB

Active member
Feb 26, 2022
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Church as it is mentioned in the Bible, all of that in the new testament of it, is used with differences in meaning. But it never was meaning a building. There are any community of believers who generally are meeting together, with activities together as singing and praying, and being helpful for each others needs, which are a church. The first church, which had started in Jerusalem with the apostles being there, was showing a model for how church was to be, even without apostles there and if there were not the miracles. This would still include singing and praying, and with teaching from what they wrote which is in the new testament of the Bible, and being helpful for each others needs, which includes what believers do said in Acts 2:44-46, and again in Acts 5. There is elsewhere still the body of Christ which includes all the true believers yet in this world that is meant by the church.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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Church as it is mentioned in the Bible, all of that in the new testament of it, is used with differences in meaning. But it never was meaning a building. There are any community of believers who generally are meeting together, with activities together as singing and praying, and being helpful for each others needs, which are a church. The first church, which had started in Jerusalem with the apostles being there, was showing a model for how church was to be, even without apostles there and if there were not the miracles. This would still include singing and praying, and with teaching from what they wrote which is in the new testament of the Bible, and being helpful for each others needs, which includes what believers do said in Acts 2:44-46, and again in Acts 5. There is elsewhere still the body of Christ which includes all the true believers yet in this world that is meant by the church.
Well all believers.. could be conceived as a body.. but that isn't how the bible defines the body of Christ. It's local in Matthew 16:18-- because it is local in Mathew 18: 18-20.

It is local in Ephesians, because the letter is to the church at Ephesus.. as an example to other churches plural. The 'general assembly' in Ephesians.. is either the Ephesus church or the future church in heaven.
It's local in Revelation.. with the seven churches as examples of churches overcoming issues in themselves.
It's local in Galations .. it being addressed to the churches of Galatia.
In Acts-- it's local initially with the church at Jerusalem.. and then with other church references.. such as Paul renting a synagogue for his church.
It's local in 1 and 2 Timothy.. as Timothy being encouraged by Paul as a pastor of a church.

There will be a time when all believers are actually one body.. but that isn't the case now. A church assembles. A body of Christ of all redeemed does not assemble.

All redeemed are obviously an entity themselves.. that is the Family of God. A family.. does not need to assemble to be a family.

From Arthur Pink in Churches of God:

"Now the kind of church which is emphasized in the N.T. is neither invisible nor universal; but instead, visible and local. The Greek word for “church” is ecclesia, and those who know anything of that language are agreed that the word signifies “An Assembly.” Now an “assembly” is a company of people who actually assemble. If they never “assemble,” then it is a misuse of language to call them “an Assembly.” Therefore, as all of God’s people never have yet assembled together, there is today no “universal Church” or “Assembly.” That “Church” is yet future; as yet it has no concrete or corporate existence."
 

DJT_47

Well-known member
Oct 20, 2022
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It's simple and not complicated at all. The "church", from a biblical perspective, is the body of Christ. Those believers who are baptized, are added to the body by the Lord (Acts 2:47). It's obvious also when reading the NT, that local. autonomous, churches were established at various locations. Simply read the various letters of the NT which are addressed, in many cases, to the churches at----, such as Corinth, Galatia, the Thessalonians, and the 7 churches of Asia in Revelation. Churches today are established the same way as in biblical times, by evangelizing individuals at any given new location, then installing deacons, elders, and ministers/preachers. It ain't rocket science.
 

Burn1986

Active member
Mar 4, 2024
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Looking just from the bible, there are key things a church is and isn't .

Is.... an assembly of baptised believers, with Jesus as the Head. Covenants together to carry out the Great commission and commandment.

Isn't ...the building this group would meet at.

Is... assembled

Isn't .. unassembled

Is ... visible

Isn't .. invisible

Is... of saved and baptised members

Isn't ...of unsaved people (they would be visitors..not members)

Is... a place to worship Jesus

Isn't ... a social club


What do you say?
Why are you trying to nail this down? Did something happen or someone asked you?
 

Burn1986

Active member
Mar 4, 2024
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Looking just from the bible, there are key things a church is and isn't .

Is.... an assembly of baptised believers, with Jesus as the Head. Covenants together to carry out the Great commission and commandment.

Isn't ...the building this group would meet at.

Is... assembled

Isn't .. unassembled

Is ... visible

Isn't .. invisible

Is... of saved and baptised members

Isn't ...of unsaved people (they would be visitors..not members)

Is... a place to worship Jesus

Isn't ... a social club


What do you say?
Again, you’ve made some points that we already know, but why did you make the thread? There must’ve been some situation to spark this.
 

Burn1986

Active member
Mar 4, 2024
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Sept ‘23?! I’ve got to start looking at the dates on these. The OP kind of alluded to making the thread just to argue - with no real reason for stating it.