What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[dcontroversal]

The only proof comes from denied context, denied verbiage, denied definitions of words, verses yanked out of context, a misapplication of the word of God, a denial of what the word saints actually means, the complete ignorance of Revelation being written to churches, denial of the word KEPT in Revelation, regurgitated error, false teachers, misapplication of the bible, ignorantly making wrath and tribulation the same thing etc......

I was raised in that farce, had it crammed down my throat with no factual evidence, believed it and peddled it just like most do today.... and at the end of the day the bible does not support a pre-tribulation ingathering.....it does support a pre-wrath ingathering....

 

[Ahwatukee]

Here’s my thinking:

The Lord commands husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the Church and gave himself up for her...and by the way, I’m making my bride go through the great tribulation. That’s how I care for her.😛

Exactly! Good comparison.

 

[Nehemiah6]

As I always say, those who believe that the Lord is going to allow His bride to go through the time of His wrath, have no understanding of the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which make up the wrath of God.

This is correct. And the judgments extend throughout the 70th week of Daniel (seven years) with the intensity increasing as time goes by. The Tribulation is a period of wrath -- God's wrath supplement with Satan's wrath. The Great Tribulation is such as has never been nor will ever be. And it will culminate in cataclysmic cosmic events such as cannot be imagined.

This entire period is reserved for the unbelieving and the ungodly. BUT GOD HAS NOT APPOINTED US (BELIEVERS) TO WRATH BUT TO OBTAIN SALVATION. That is why it is critical that Christians understand the full meaning (and scope) of the finished work of Christ, and the penal substitutionary atonement which was accomplished at the cross.

 

[jacob_g]

What would be your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib rapture?

My Church teaches it, all the good teachers I know teach it and everyone and their momma believes in it, but its largely foreign in Church history (or things are snipped outta context by pre-tribbers to try to prove it, which I will forgive cause aint nobody got time to read all the church fathers' and many of them are in error too).

I cant see it as being something like: "Yo heres a verse..." it seems to be more like the kind of doctrine that requires some seeds planted and questions asked and saying thats to a different group and making charts showing "differences" between rapture verses and second coming verses. They can be differences OR its just the same event and its trouble to unbelievers and rest to believers like in 2 thessalonians 1:7-9. It depends on how you look at it. BEFORE anyone says it, YES I know the TRINITY is kind of like that too! Which is SAD to me, wish we had a clear ONE VERSE for the trinity, but WHO AM I to complain?

Some proofs I have heard, which all are good imo:

-Jesus wont put His body through wrath AGAIN
-People are RETURNING from heaven with Jesus in Rev 19, so they need to be up there before that return
-The bridegroom parable from Matthew 25
-John 14:1-3 literally cant be fulfilled in historical premillennialism, only in amill,postmill and dispensational premillennialism (correct me if im wrong)


I guess the point of this thread is: IF someone asked you: "Hey, show me the pre-trib rapture in the Bible?" WHERE would you take them? What would be your GO-TO verse(s)?

I believe in pre-trib rapture.... why? because that is how I want it to be! I really think I will be dead before Messiah return, the rapture or the tribulation... but if not I like the idea of per-trib so why not believe in pre-trib. If it is not just die for Messiah. The idea of being torchered for Messiah, sucks, or torcherd for anything, but I am lucky I am type one diabetic so if I do not get insulin I will go into a coma and die pretty quickly anyway.... I am a lucky duck if it is post-trib and if it is in my lifetime. I kind of feel bad for the people who cannot die of natural causes like me!!

 

[presidente]

We've been giving you the reasons all along, but you don't accept them.

God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since His wrath in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will affect the whole world, the Lord is going to remove His church prior to said wrath.

If you're looking for a scripture that a precise time for the gathering of the church, you are not going to find it. Likewise, you're not going to find a scripture directly saying that the church will be gathered after the tribulation.

We can find scripture about the elect being gathered after the tribulation. It is right there in Matthew 24.

Also, I Thessalonians 4 mentions those who are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord being raptured. What else happens at the parousia? That wicked in II Thessalonians 4 is destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's parousia.

If you and others can't connect the dots, then there is no sense to continue going over the reasons as to why.

The biggest reason for the gathering of the church prior to the tribulation, is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. And because of this, believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did. Please read post #158 for the details on some of the plagues of wrath and the reason why the church cannot be here during that time.

Your taking a 'problem' that isn't really a big problem and solving it with something the Bible does not teach at all. I take this post as basically an admission than the Bible never teaches a pre-trib rapture. We should take 'not appointed unto wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ' to mean that Christians will not suffer the wrath of God, not that they won't be on the earth which might be affected by God's wrath. Create a whole new return of Christ for such a non-issue makes no sense at all.

As I always say, those who believe that the Lord is going to allow His bride to go through the time of His wrath, have no understanding of the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which make up the wrath of God.

This looks like the logical fallacy of an appeal to fear. It's going to be so bad and scary, that you just can't believe you might be here. But those overcomers Revelation talks about, they can be hear during that time.

 

[presidente]

Here’s my thinking:

The Lord commands husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the Church and gave himself up for her...and by the way, I’m making my bride go through the great tribulation. That’s how I care for her.😛

You need to broaden your thinking. God let Christians go through being fed to lions. Jesus warned the disciples of persecution that would happen. Consider all the suffering and persecution in the early church. Does that mean Jesus does not love the church? Of course not.

The idea that if God loves us, that He won't have us suffer tribulation is clearly an unbiblical way of things. That's also one concern that every pre-tribber should have, "Am I only believing this because I want to believe that we will not suffer."

If pre-tribbers are wrong, the teaching is not preparing the saints to endure hardship like the Bible teaches.

 

[John146]

You need to broaden your thinking. God let Christians go through being fed to lions. Jesus warned the disciples of persecution that would happen. Consider all the suffering and persecution in the early church. Does that mean Jesus does not love the church? Of course not.

The idea that if God loves us, that He won't have us suffer tribulation is clearly an unbiblical way of things. That's also one concern that every pre-tribber should have, "Am I only believing this because I want to believe that we will not suffer."

If pre-tribbers are wrong, the teaching is not preparing the saints to endure hardship like the Bible teaches.

The great tribulation is going to be way worse than any suffering Christians have ever faced.

 

[garee]

We've been giving you the reasons all along, but you don't accept them.

God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since His wrath in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will affect the whole world, the Lord is going to remove His church prior to said wrath.

If you're looking for a scripture that a precise time for the gathering of the church, you are not going to find it. Likewise, you're not going to find a scripture directly saying that the church will be gathered after the tribulation.

If you and others can't connect the dots, then there is no sense to continue going over the reasons as to why.

The biggest reason for the gathering of the church prior to the tribulation, is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. And because of this, believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already did. Please read post #158 for the details on some of the plagues of wrath and the reason why the church cannot be here during that time.

As I always say, those who believe that the Lord is going to allow His bride to go through the time of His wrath, have no understanding of the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which make up the wrath of God.

God does not punish the righteous with the wicked on the last day .The day he executes it. Then comes is a division (lambs and goats)

Some to eternal life others never to rise to new life.

God does cause the righteous to suffer his judgement of corruption all the days of their lives because of Adam as a tribulation with the wicked. It is the wrath of God that is being revealed from heaven a dying creation. . . living on borrowed time approx. 70 years

There is no heaven on this corrupted creation heaven and earth.. No hell in the next . We are experiencing the works of hell, a living suffering.

One thing that I have learned that does cause a problem when trying to reconcile is how people define hell as to how it applies to their end time timing . The bible clearly define it as the suffering we go through in this life ending when we do die .

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Yeah, I agree! The reference to Darby and MacDonald, is just a created apologetic in an attempt to refute the promise of the Lord coming to get His church prior to the tribulation period.

It is really amazing that, besides all the scripture that we have to support a pre-trib gathering, that believers actually think that, the Lord would first put His bride through His wrath and then gather her afterwards. One of the major problems with the mid and post-trib view, is a lack of understanding of the severity and magnitude of that time of wrath. As I have posted many times, with just the accumulation of the first four seals and the 6th trumpet alone, (a fourth and a third, respectively), based on our currently population, that would be over 1.7 billion people killed within the first 3 1/2 years and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the results from the seven bowl judgments. Most people don't go any deeper than a cursory reading. Allow me to demonstrate:

First Trumpet
"The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up."

If you have a third of the earth and trees burned up, how many people will be caught in that third? For those who are post-trib, not that He couldn't, but is God going to make sure that the no one belonging to the church is within that third? Remeber, the ocean is not included in that. That's a lot of area and a lot of people.


Ok, I'm done ranting!

I love reading your posts brother. Notice also during the first trumpet it says all green grass was burned up, that will be a disaster when it comes to agriculture, going to be very tough surviving that alone.

Post-tribbers play down the severity of the trumpets and vials. I even heard one post-trib pre-wrath Pastor say about the seals the Lamb opens "Look, its natural disaster, its nothing supernatural".

When confronted with the Darby nonsense, I say the first post-tribbers in Church history were the ones who were telling the Thessalonians something that shook their minds and Paul had to send them a letter to correct them saying the day of the Lord is not yet, do not let your hearts be troubled. Why would their minds be troubled about the Second Coming? It would be a moment to rejoice, not something to be shaken up about.

I do not base my faith on the Church fathers, but even in there you can find some imminent return passages and a few plain statements that says Church is caught up from this prior to the tribulation. Anyone who is interested can google the quotes.

Dispensational pre-trib doctrine is like carefully organizing verses putting Bible truths in the right time period and looking at who is spoken to. That is why the so much quoted Matthew 24:29-31 is in no way proof against the pre-trib Rapture.
This event is the same as in Isaiah, where a trumpet is blown and the elect are gathered, no mention of a resurrection, no mention of dead in Christ rising first, they are gathered to Jerusalem not to the Father's house in heaven.

I still believe reading the Scriptures literally (unless context says otherwise) and comparing Scripture with Scripture will lead one to become a pre-trib believer. The people who take the Bible seriously are almost always pre-tribbers, whereas those who dont seem to care much are high-church amillennialists or postmillennialists who will not even open up the book of Revelation. Even Martin Luther struggled with understanding it, precisely because of his roman catholic background.

I notice an increase in interest to prophecy each time there is a revival happening and God is moving.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Can anyone provide me with a passage that teaches pre-trib, that shows a rapture/resurrection event occurring at some time before the parousia? or does anyone have any Biblical evidence for two parousia events or a parousia that lasts for years and years?

It doesn't make much sense to argue that a passage fits better with pre-trib if there is no scripture that teaches pre-trib in the first place.

Even the first coming had different phases of it. Jesus was born and lived, then was crucified. Then he resurrected and appeared to many people and went back up.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

If pre-tribbers are wrong, the teaching is not preparing the saints to endure hardship like the Bible teaches.

Are you stocking up on supplies? Do you have a bunker ready? I still maintain its our spiritual state the Lord is concerned with moreso than survival in the flesh running from the antichrist.

 

[John146]

Are you stocking up on supplies? Do you have a bunker ready? I still maintain its our spiritual state the Lord is concerned with moreso than survival in the flesh running from the antichrist.

Is Glenn Beck still selling tribulation survival kits?

 

[presidente]

The great tribulation is going to be way worse than any suffering Christians have ever faced.

Do you think that Jesus does not love the saints who love not their lives, even to the death?

 

[presidente]

Are you stocking up on supplies? Do you have a bunker ready? I still maintain its our spiritual state the Lord is concerned with moreso than survival in the flesh running from the antichrist.

I was talking about being prepared spiritually and also mentally and emotionally. Whether we go through 'the great tribulation' or not, we could all potentially go through tribulation. There are Christians in North Korea in prison right now for the faith.

I wonder if there will be people taking the mark of the beast who will justify it to themselves by saying, "This can't be the mark of the beast because the preacher said I would be raptured before that happened if I repeated a prayer after him, and I cannot lose my salvation if I repeated those words."

 

[John146]

Do you think that Jesus does not love the saints who love not their lives, even to the death?

Sure He does. What part of the Church will be going through the great tribulation? And why?

 

[presidente]

The great tribulation is going to be way worse than any suffering Christians have ever faced.

Is this supposed to be an argument for the pre-trib rapture? God will let saints go through great tribulation in the book of Revelation.

 

[Melach]

I was talking about being prepared spiritually and also mentally and emotionally. Whether we go through 'the great tribulation' or not, we could all potentially go through tribulation. There are Christians in North Korea in prison right now for the faith.

I wonder if there will be people taking the mark of the beast who will justify it to themselves by saying, "This can't be the mark of the beast because the preacher said I would be raptured before that happened if I repeated a prayer after him, and I cannot lose my salvation if I repeated those words."

doesnt matter about the mark of the beast for this reason

Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

so if you are written in the book of life from foundation of the world you wont take it. easy.
same here

Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

 

[John146]

Is this supposed to be an argument for the pre-trib rapture? God will let saints go through great tribulation in the book of Revelation.

Who are the 144,000 tribulation witnesses in Revelation 7?

 

[presidente]

I still believe reading the Scriptures literally (unless context says otherwise) and comparing Scripture with Scripture will lead one to become a pre-trib believer.

That's how I left pre-trib. I could not find pre-trib in there, and I found plenty of scripture against it. I do not see where the Bible addresses pre-trib. It's hard to argue for something that Bible does not teach. If you can find some passage that teaches pre-trib, that would be a nice thought. I, or at least my flesh, kind of like the idea of not suffering. But part of me knows better.

The people who take the Bible seriously are almost always pre-tribbers, whereas those who dont seem to care much are high-church amillennialists or postmillennialists who will not even open up the book of Revelation.

I used to think like that about other doctrines. Then I met Christians who thought differently and got a little perspective on history. Pre-trib has been popular for less than 200 years. The only evidence I have found for anyone believing it before Darby was a comment from a monk who went by Ephraim, who seems to have gotten his eschatology confused.

Historically, most Christians were not pre-trib, and pre-mil adherents were not pre-trib either. What I notice with a lot of pre-tribbers is a strange lack of attention to what the Bible teaches. There are a lot of pre-tribbers who seem to think you get saved by repeating a prayer, even after not hearing about the crucifixion and resurrection preached, as if the ritual of repeating a prayer saves instead of salvation being by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Christians of past generations that were not pre-tribbers seemed to hold the Bible in a higher place of honor in their society than ours does.

 

[presidente]

doesnt matter about the mark of the beast for this reason

Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

You should cite your translation. I looked it up and that is the ESV. I heard the ESV had a Calvinist bent to it, but I hadn't seen any verses that showed it until this one.

My guess is there is an ambiguity which the KJV and NKJV retain.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

And the NLT went with the nonCalvinist rendering:
8 And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.

But be that as it may, I would suspect some takers of the mark could still use such reasoning about poor evangelism methods.