What Laws are still valid to christians

[Yury]

There is a before the cross and after the cross. do you agree with this?

What is there before and after the cross? Please could you be more specific? Because I cannot follow for you question and thoughts. It will make our dialogue much easier. Thank you.

Before under the Law, that is perfect and yet no one could fulfill the law perfectly in their own flesh. thus under a curse, being born of flesh.

Yes, that's right, but trying fulfill the law we haw a chance:

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! Certainly, I would not have known sin *except*through the law. For indeed I would not have known what it means to desire somethingbelonging to someone else if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”

because:

Rom 3:20 For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin comes through the law.

Does this help ?

Yeah, I familiar with that point you've made. Thank you.

 

[Yury]

Yes, that's right, but trying fulfill the law we haw a chance:

I mean: Yes, that's right, but trying fulfill the law we have a chance

 

[Galatians2-20]

Which of the laws is considered in step with the Spirit? There are some who call themselves Christians and who are pro-choice, view government-endorsed marriage as unnecessary or practice homosexuality. Has the Spirit led them in a direction contrary to someone else's? Or are their consciences not as developed if these do not offend them? And how can they better be led by the Spirit without relying on a law code?

Jesus says that we can identify true Christians from the fake ones by their "fruit". Such people that you mention are not being led by the Spirit but rather their own flesh. We are being led by the Spirit when we willingly lay down all sense of self in favor of putting God (His word and His will) first in all things and our neighbor's needs before our own.

 

[Josh321]

people don't realize that the spirit of the law is actually christ living in us and producing the fruits of holiness that is the law everyone suppose to be under, this happens when we are born again, and being led by the spirit is only doing the will of God it is surrending your choice and actions and waiting for when the lord tells you to move

 

[Hizikyah]

people don't realize that the spirit of the law is actually christ living in us and producing the fruits of holiness that is the law everyone suppose to be under, this happens when we are born again, and being led by the spirit is only doing the will of God it is surrending your choice and actions and waiting for when the lord tells you to move

Yahchanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The Instructions that I speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."

Evey Instruction in the book Law/Commandment is the Spirit of Yahweh written down. I agree if one conscious really is in line with the Spirit/Law but in Shaul's day it was WAY WAY harder to own a Script, now its simple, and if our conscious doesent match Yahweh's instruction we are fooling nobody but ourselves and i have rarely met one whos consciouss really lines up with Yahweh's Instruction. So personally I dont risk it, its right there I read it to help bind it to my thoughts and actions, thats what its there for.

Deuteronomy 30:11-13, "For this Law which I command you this day is not hidden from you, nor is it beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask; Who will ascend up into heaven for us, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and then do it? Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask; Who will cross the sea, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and then do it?"

Young's Literal Translation
the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;

World English Bible
It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.

New Living Translation
The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

English Standard Version
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

New American Standard Bible
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

King James Bible
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Evey Instruction in the book Law/Commandment is the Spirit of Yahweh written down. I agree if one conscious really is in line with the Spirit/Law but in Shaul's day it was WAY WAY harder to own a Script, now its simple, and if our conscious doesent match Yahweh's instruction we are fooling nobody but ourselves and i have rarely met one whos consciouss really lines up with Yahweh's Instruction. So personally I dont risk it, its right there I read it to help bind it to my thoughts and actions, thats what its there for.

Deuteronomy 30:11-13, ""

Moses was witnessing in Deuteronomy 30:11-13 that righteousness comes through faith rather than law .

Moses

For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. Deuteronomy 30:11-14
​

Paul

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness that is from the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”

But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down), or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” Romans 10:4-11​

 

[Hizikyah]

Moses was witnessing in Deuteronomy 30:11-13 that righteousness comes through faith rather than law .

Moses

For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. Deuteronomy 30:11-14​

​

Verse 10, "If you obey Yahweh your Father, to keep His Laws and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law; if you turn to Yahweh your Father with all your heart and with all your soul."

It was simply about obedience and the obedience and knowing the instruction is within grasp.

Paul

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness that is from the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”

But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down), or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” Romans 10:4-
​

Again its "For Yahshua is the ultimate result of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."

BTW what does this even have to do with my post?

Yahchanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The Instructions that I speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."

Evey Instruction in the book Law/Commandment is the Spirit of Yahweh written down. I agree if one conscious really is in line with the Spirit/Law but in Shaul's day it was WAY WAY harder to own a Script, now its simple, and if our conscious doesent match Yahweh's instruction we are fooling nobody but ourselves and i have rarely met one whos consciouss really lines up with Yahweh's Instruction. So personally I dont risk it, its right there I read it to help bind it to my thoughts and actions, thats what its there for.

Simply put if ones heart/conscious doesnt line up with Yahweh's Instructions they are not walking in the Spirit but in the flesh. Shaul made this VERY clear:

Romans 8:7-8, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

The verses are there, you continually try to make it a "justifiacation" by works topic and miss the point of the Spirit every time in you debates with me.

 

[TheAristocat]

Such people that you mention are not being led by the Spirit but rather their own flesh. We are being led by the Spirit when we willingly lay down all sense of self in favor of putting God (His word and His will) first in all things and our neighbor's needs before our own.

How can we tell when we're being led by the Spirit and when we're being led by our own flesh? Some believe homosexuals should be allowed to marry, because they feel a love and dedication toward each other. What would you say to them? And, without looking to the Bible to tell us what to do (a written code), how can we as believers lay down our sense of self in favor of what God wants us to do?

These questions have confused me for a long time.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How can we tell when we're being led by the Spirit and when we're being led by our own flesh? Some believe homosexuals should be allowed to marry, because they feel a love and dedication toward each other. What would you say to them? And, without looking to the Bible to tell us what to do (a written code), how can we as believers lay down our sense of self in favor of what God wants us to do?

These questions have confused me for a long time.

Who says the bible, or more specifically the OT, isn't useful for edification and instruction? I think most every Christian would agree on that.

 

[TheAristocat]

Who says the bible, or more specifically the OT, isn't useful for edification and instruction? I think most every Christian would agree on that.

Really? I've been saying that all along, and people have been disagreeing with me. So I decided to look at it from their point of view and ask the questions that, had I adopted their stance, would have remained unresolved in my mind.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Really? I've been saying that all along, and people have been disagreeing with me. So I decided to look at it from their point of view and ask the questions that, had I adopted their stance, would have remained unresolved in my mind.

Could be wrong, but I think maybe the point they're trying to make is that the law is not useful as a means of attaining righteousness, or for sanctification. I think they would agree that the law is useful for instruction. Also, some people in their conversations don't make a distinction between the law and the OT, which kind of confuses things IMO.

 

[Josh321]

Really? I've been saying that all along, and people have been disagreeing with me. So I decided to look at it from their point of view and ask the questions that, had I adopted their stance, would have remained unresolved in my mind.

it is the school master and leads us to Christ, i use to wonder to myself when i was younger, i use to say how can i follow the bible when i enjoy and desire the things the bible is against, well it's suppose to show us that we can't follow them and need christ to make us righteous

 

[TheAristocat]

Could be wrong, but I think maybe the point they're trying to make is that the law is not useful as a means of attaining righteousness, or for sanctification. I think they would agree that the law is useful for instruction. Also, some people in their conversations don't make a distinction between the law and the OT, which kind of confuses things IMO.

Ok. So either people have been misunderstanding what I've been saying or they're just against paying heed to the OT's instructions. Because I never argued for it to be a means by which we could attain righteousness but rather as something that would be beneficial for us to follow, because it was given to us from God for our benefit.

 

[Hizikyah]

Mattithyah 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me; Teacher! Teacher! will enter into the Kingdom of Yahweh, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day; Teacher! Teacher! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your
Name performed many wonderful works? But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

"but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven"

Deuteronomy 10:12-13, "And now, O Israyl, what does Yahweh your Father require of you, but to reverence Yahweh your Father by walking in all His ways, by loving Him, by serving Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, By keeping the Laws of Yahweh, with His statutes, which I command you
this day, so that you may be blessed?."

"Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your
Name performed many wonderful works?"

Do Muslims do things in His Name? Buddists? Hare Krishnas? or Atherist? You get the point
This is a message to us! Followers of or people who claim to be followers of the Messiah.
If you tell me to mow your lawn in a CERTIAN manner, but I do it the way I choose, did I do it your way?

"But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity!"
Iniquity is Word #458 from word #459, Greek Dictionary, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, meaning not subject to (Yahweh's) Laws, transgressor.

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the
Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices breaking the Law."

Mattithayh 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

We can not enter the Kingdom of Yahweh by the Law alone, but we can not make it by rejecting Yahweh's Law.

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

Revelation 14:12, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, in conformity with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."

 

[Josh321]

people don't realize that the spirit of the law is actually christ living in us and producing the fruits of holiness that is the law everyone suppose to be under, this happens when we are born again, and being led by the spirit is only doing the will of God it is surrending your choice and actions and waiting for when the lord tells you to move

just wanted to add what i meant by waiting for the lord to tell us where to move and being led by the spirit means [h=3]John 5:19[/h]King James Version (KJV)

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

 

[royalscot]

Could be wrong, but I think maybe the point they're trying to make is that the law is not useful as a means of attaining righteousness, or for sanctification. I think they would agree that the law is useful for instruction. Also, some people in their conversations don't make a distinction between the law and the OT, which kind of confuses things IMO.

16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
who saved the world, and what laws did i need to follow to believe in jesus.
yes know your bible, read and pray and walk with the spirits guide.

we all have a mind, and to guess on how, others think or do, is just going to lead to speculation.
the laws of the land are a different things, and the jewish people were under roman empires rule, and laws and decrees
just like us, we are under different countries laws and decrees. again if i break these rules, the will punish me ,jail me, kill me, but none of these would save me before god.

 

[john832]

You are correct, I can't see how fulfilling the fourth Commandment does away with it.

It doesn't do away with it, it fulfills its requirements. When you love you fulfill the purpose for that law, i.e., trusting GOD to sanctify you.

So, how do you apply that to the sixth Commandment? Since the requirements are fulfilled, one does not have to obey that one?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So, how do you apply that to the sixth Commandment? Since the requirements are fulfilled, one does not have to obey that one?

When you love you don't hate. When you don't hate you don't murder.

 

[john832]

When you love you don't hate. When you don't hate you don't murder.

Hmmm, sounds real good except it is not what scripture says...

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul wrote this twenty some years after his conversion. He says that he was still fighting the battle.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Hmmm, sounds real good except it is not what scripture says...

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul wrote this twenty some years after his conversion. He says that he was still fighting the battle.

I have no idea how this is applicable to the discussion.