What REALLY is Faith That Scripture Upholds?

[GWH]

Being such a proponent of faith and faithing, I've always wondered what people mean when they say "faith alone".
Could you give me an explanation to what that means?

"I've always wondered what people mean when they say "faith alone".
Could you give me an explanation to what that means?"

It quotes Luther's maxim, sola fide.
What it SHOULD mean is saving faith in Jesus as Messiah the Lord first,
followed by lifelong sanctifying faith in Him as the HS motivates godly works of love (Eph. 2:8-10).

 

[Watchman22]

"I've always wondered what people mean when they say "faith alone".
Could you give me an explanation to what that means?"

It quotes Luther's maxim, sola fide.
What it SHOULD mean is saving faith in Jesus as Messiah the Lord first,
followed by lifelong sanctifying faith in Him as the HS motivates godly works of love (Eph. 2:8-10).

So are you saying that "saving faith in Jesus as Messiah and Lord" is saving faith?

Believing that Jesus is Messiah and Lord is NT saving faith?

 

[Nedsk]

I'm not trying to frustrate you or play a game. But I'm going to pressure you for the answers I need to understand your understanding of faith.

I understand that NT faith, pistis in the Greek, and the active form of faith, pisteuo in the Greek, cannot be fulfilled without works and effort. But, not a work and effort that is added to the completed work of Christ.

The Father called you out. You turned in your mind to the caller as an act of repentance. Then you took your first step of faith, the active form of faith towards the caller. What did that step of faith look like?

Before I answer all that I need to address your error in understanding of what I'm saying. What frustrates me isn't the content of your position it's the apparent struggle that all of you who believe like you do, to accurately understand what's being said to you. It's like you see certain words and that seems to trigger some pre programmed response that has nothing to do with what I actually said.

So you wrote: "But, not a work and effort that is added to the completed work of Christ"

So before we can move forward I need you to show me where anyone said the "work of Christ" needed completion. Copy and paste it please. I am not going to explain myself any further because it is absolutely essential that you come to understand the error on your own because my conversing with you doesn't help. Now I say the same thing to everybody I talk to but all the people who believe like you seem to reference things all the time that I never actually said and that leads to error. When a premise is wrong the conclusion is wrong.

I eagerly wait to see your evidence.

 

[Watchman22]

Before I answer all that I need to address your error in understanding of what I'm saying. What frustrates me isn't the content of your position it's the apparent struggle that all of you who believe like you do, to accurately understand what's being said to you. It's like you see certain words and that seems to trigger some pre programmed response that has nothing to do with what I actually said.

So you wrote: "But, not a work and effort that is added to the completed work of Christ"

So before we can move forward I need you to show me where anyone said the "work of Christ" needed completion. Copy and paste it please. I am not going to explain myself any further because it is absolutely essential that you come to understand the error on your own because my conversing with you doesn't help. Now I say the same thing to everybody I talk to but all the people who believe like you seem to reference things all the time that I never actually said and that leads to error. When a premise is wrong the conclusion is wrong.

I eagerly wait to see your evidence.

I was just stating my understanding about faith. It wasn't based on anything you may have said.

And as far as the ones who " believe " like i do, ive rarely met anyone who understands faith like i do, very few.

So lumping me into a group of others who you've obviously had interactions with before is a mistake.

I actually am leaning towards the chance we are more on the same page then not.

If you read post 49, that is my detailed understanding of faith.

 

[homwardbound]

Why would I use questions? The words of Jesus and other passages in Scripture do not lead me to conclude that faith alone is sufficient for salvation.

For me, it is when one, anyone in belief to God through risen Son Jesus gvien them by God Father for them. Begin to learn new from mistakes made not good for their soul. Father, continuing in the forgiveness of Son given them, in the love and mercy to all for all. I saw this and woe became me, how Lord can you continue loving me and all people of flesh and blood?
I saw Eph 1:13, God seals anyone from the first day anyone decides to believe God. seals them to see truth over errors made, patiently. Not demanding to stop or quit or else I will kill you attitudes from religions.

I was in a place where each week I had to get more forigvensss from God and those people there in that gathering. I did that each week and felt better every time I did that. When I did not attend, I felt bad, not being a descent person. So I got caught up in religion. And ended up being a person better than others as in Luke 18:9-14 explains to me.

So I decided to read the whole Bible, take my time and asked from God Father in risen Son to learn from. No more other people as if anyone is better than I am, No one is as I am not better than anyone either.

I saw John 19:30 "It is finished" I asked What is finished? I got Matthew 5:17. The purpose of Jesus's being here on earth in the only perfrect flesh and blood ever. To be given new life in his risen Life that Father did first. Raised Son from the dead, where now today new life for each person to choose it real. I saw John 4:23-24 and decided to trust to hear truth over error from God personally in me. To learn and see Matthew 10:16-20 To remain to not argue or fight and be at rest was/is the hardest part once a=ne anyone is wise as a serpent.
then revealed Hebrews 4 especially 9-13 verses.

So as in Isaiah woe has become me Isaiah 6:1-7

For by Son the two as One, Won for you too, to be new in the risen Life in love and mercy to all willingly. Will you choose this between God Father and you too? Then you will see Eph 1:6-7 Accepted and forgiven by God for you, done for you, back at the cross of Son for all first to be reconciled as forgiven 2 Cor 5:17-21. Then once believe God in this truth the new begins in you too and love and mercy lead thank you
So I as I learn from God the new, when I do it not well, I see put it behind me and move forward in continued trust to God Father and Son Paul 3:11-20

 

[Nedsk]

I was just stating my understanding about faith. It wasn't based on anything you may have said.

And as far as the ones who " believe " like i do, ive rarely met anyone who understands faith like i do, very few.

So lumping me into a group of others who you've obviously had interactions with before is a mistake.

I actually am leaning towards the chance we are more on the same page then not.

If you read post 49, that is my detailed understanding of faith.

That statement of yours that I copied in my previous post has nothing to do with what I said or what I believe about faith and works.

Now I read post #49 again and the only thing I'm interested is the last sentence:

"Salvation is by Grace "through faith," (faithing) through a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender."

If by all that you agree with what James says, "You can see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" then we are completely on the same page. But you mentioned the, completed work of Christ, which is essential but has nothing to do with this.

 

[Nedsk]

For me, it is when one, anyone in belief to God through risen Son Jesus gvien them by God Father for them. Begin to learn new from mistakes made not good for their soul. Father, continuing in the forgiveness of Son given them, in the love and mercy to all for all. I saw this and woe became me, how Lord can you continue loving me and all people of flesh and blood?
I saw Eph 1:13, God seals anyone from the first day anyone decides to believe God. seals them to see truth over errors made, patiently. Not demanding to stop or quit or else I will kill you attitudes from religions.

I was in a place where each week I had to get more forigvensss from God and those people there in that gathering. I did that each week and felt better every time I did that. When I did not attend, I felt bad, not being a descent person. So I got caught up in religion. And ended up being a person better than others as in Luke 18:9-14 explains to me.

So I decided to read the whole Bible, take my time and asked from God Father in risen Son to learn from. No more other people as if anyone is better than I am, No one is as I am not better than anyone either.

I saw John 19:30 "It is finished" I asked What is finished? I got Matthew 5:17. The purpose of Jesus's being here on earth in the only perfrect flesh and blood ever. To be given new life in his risen Life that Father did first. Raised Son from the dead, where now today new life for each person to choose it real. I saw John 4:23-24 and decided to trust to hear truth over error from God personally in me. To learn and see Matthew 10:16-20 To remain to not argue or fight and be at rest was/is the hardest part once a=ne anyone is wise as a serpent.
then revealed Hebrews 4 especially 9-13 verses.

So as in Isaiah woe has become me Isaiah 6:1-7

For by Son the two as One, Won for you too, to be new in the risen Life in love and mercy to all willingly. Will you choose this between God Father and you too? Then you will see Eph 1:6-7 Accepted and forgiven by God for you, done for you, back at the cross of Son for all first to be reconciled as forgiven 2 Cor 5:17-21. Then once believe God in this truth the new begins in you too and love and mercy lead thank you
So I as I learn from God the new, when I do it not well, I see put it behind me and move forward in continued trust to God Father and Son Paul 3:11-20

I'm sorry but I don't know what you're saying there. I'm certain it's not you but me but I can't find a coherent reply to my previous post. Could you simplify what you're saying as I am not very intelligent. Thank you

 

[Watchman22]

That statement of yours that I copied in my previous post has nothing to do with what I said or what I believe about faith and works.

Now I read post #49 again and the only thing I'm interested is the last sentence:

"Salvation is by Grace "through faith," (faithing) through a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender."

If by all that you agree with what James says, "You can see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" then we are completely on the same page. But you mentioned the, completed work of Christ, which is essential but has nothing to do with this.

So you do agree that NT saving faith and faithing is " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender? "

This is done daily, all day long if needed?

It involves 95% courage, 4% endurance, and 1% everything else. This is work and effort.

Many people accuse me of a works based salvation, work and effort is a part of faith and faithing, but not to be confused with the finished work of Christ.

Are we on the same pace?

 

[GWH]

So are you saying that "saving faith in Jesus as Messiah and Lord" is saving faith?

Believing that Jesus is Messiah and Lord is NT saving faith?

Yes, that is the short or nutshell version. I suggest that the longer version implicit in this statement can be explained
or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or Creator God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who loves sinful humanity (Rom. 5:6-8, John 3:16) and who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s grace or justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), at which moment God’s loving Holy Spirit of Christ indwells/baptizes the believer into the church (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5, 1Cor. 12:13).
5. Loving Christ Jesus as Lord (Luke 2:11), God the Son (Matt. 16:16) or God in the human dimension (Col. 2:9) means reflecting divine love (DL) as empowered by the Holy Spirit, thereby obeying His command to love one another (Matt. 7:21, 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2), which will eventually achieve spiritual maturity on earth and heaven after Christ returns at God’s resurrection (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Phil. 3:12-16, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).

 

[Nedsk]

So you do agree that NT saving faith and faithing is " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender? "

This is done daily, all day long if needed?

It involves 95% courage, 4% endurance, and 1% everything else. This is work and effort.

Many people accuse me of a works based salvation, work and effort is a part of faith and faithing, but not to be confused with the finished work of Christ.

Are we on the same pace?

If by "works based" salvation you mean works saves us, they don't, so yes. If you see the completed work of Christ separate from the necessity of works to complete our faith like James says, then yes.

If you answer yes to both of those then we are completely on the same page.

 

[Nedsk]

Yes, that is the short or nutshell version. I suggest that the longer version implicit in this statement can be explained
or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or Creator God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who loves sinful humanity (Rom. 5:6-8, John 3:16) and who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s grace or justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), at which moment God’s loving Holy Spirit of Christ indwells/baptizes the believer into the church (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5, 1Cor. 12:13).
5. Loving Christ Jesus as Lord (Luke 2:11), God the Son (Matt. 16:16) or God in the human dimension (Col. 2:9) means reflecting divine love (DL) as empowered by the Holy Spirit, thereby obeying His command to love one another (Matt. 7:21, 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2), which will eventually achieve spiritual maturity on earth and heaven after Christ returns at God’s resurrection (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Phil. 3:12-16, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).

Does it need to be that elaborate?

 

[Watchman22]

Yes, that is the short or nutshell version. I suggest that the longer version implicit in this statement can be explained
or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or Creator God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who loves sinful humanity (Rom. 5:6-8, John 3:16) and who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s grace or justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), at which moment God’s loving Holy Spirit of Christ indwells/baptizes the believer into the church (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5, 1Cor. 12:13).
5. Loving Christ Jesus as Lord (Luke 2:11), God the Son (Matt. 16:16) or God in the human dimension (Col. 2:9) means reflecting divine love (DL) as empowered by the Holy Spirit, thereby obeying His command to love one another (Matt. 7:21, 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2), which will eventually achieve spiritual maturity on earth and heaven after Christ returns at God’s resurrection (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Phil. 3:12-16, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).

My nutshell version is no, that is not saving faith.

 

[Nedsk]

Yes, that is the short or nutshell version. I suggest that the longer version implicit in this statement can be explained
or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or Creator God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who loves sinful humanity (Rom. 5:6-8, John 3:16) and who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s grace or justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), at which moment God’s loving Holy Spirit of Christ indwells/baptizes the believer into the church (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5, 1Cor. 12:13).
5. Loving Christ Jesus as Lord (Luke 2:11), God the Son (Matt. 16:16) or God in the human dimension (Col. 2:9) means reflecting divine love (DL) as empowered by the Holy Spirit, thereby obeying His command to love one another (Matt. 7:21, 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2), which will eventually achieve spiritual maturity on earth and heaven after Christ returns at God’s resurrection (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Phil. 3:12-16, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).

I am particularly interested in #4

"Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s grace or justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), at which moment God’s loving Holy Spirit of Christ indwells/baptizes the believer into the church (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5, 1Cor. 12:13)."

So what actually saves us then, what you said in #3:

"...providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28)." or what you say in #4?

 

[Watchman22]

If by "works based" salvation you mean works saves us, they don't, so yes. If you see the completed work of Christ separate from the necessity of works to complete our faith like James says, then yes.

If you answer yes to both of those then we are completely on the same page.

I think we're good.

But, James is a right strawy epistle, and probably shouldn't even be in our Bible. So there's that.

You never did describe how you fulfill your understanding of faith. Do you personally surrender your life to Him everyday and live a life inspired by such surrender? Or would you describe it in another way?

 

[Nedsk]

I think we're good.

But, James is a right strawy epistle, and probably shouldn't even be in our Bible. So there's that.

You never did describe how you fulfill your understanding of faith. Do you personally surrender your life to Him everyday and live a life inspired by such surrender? Or would you describe it in another way?

James is "strawy" for lots of people and understand why, because it contradicts their the unbiblical doctrine of faith alone. Of all the books that were removed from the original bible I'm not sure how they missed that one. So there's that.

Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father." If you do that you should be fine wouldnt you say?

 

[Watchman22]

Yes, that is the short or nutshell version. I suggest that the longer version implicit in this statement can be explained
or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or Creator God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who loves sinful humanity (Rom. 5:6-8, John 3:16) and who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s grace or justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), at which moment God’s loving Holy Spirit of Christ indwells/baptizes the believer into the church (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5, 1Cor. 12:13).
5. Loving Christ Jesus as Lord (Luke 2:11), God the Son (Matt. 16:16) or God in the human dimension (Col. 2:9) means reflecting divine love (DL) as empowered by the Holy Spirit, thereby obeying His command to love one another (Matt. 7:21, 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2), which will eventually achieve spiritual maturity on earth and heaven after Christ returns at God’s resurrection (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Phil. 3:12-16, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).

OK GWH, I want to ask you a question, but please don't take it as a slight on you because it's not.

My gifted teacher graduated from Stanford University. And he would often mention his theology prop, and it surprised me when he said his prop wasn't a Christian. And I guess thats not uncommon.

You have some obvious intellect, but as per our discussions, it makes a hard stop when we get into the Greek texts. And thats ok, we all have our strengths and weaknesses.

My question is one we just take for granted here in CC. What I want to ask you is, are you a practicing Christian? Or are you in a gathering information mode to see if it's something you want to pull the trigger on?

 

[GWH]

Does it need to be that elaborate?

No, the nutshell version is sufficient to believe for salvation, but the implied details should be learned for more mature understanding.

 

[GWH]

My nutshell version is no, that is not saving faith.

So, what is your nutshell version that differs from what Jesus and Paul said?

 

[GWH]

I am particularly interested in #4

"Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s grace or justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), at which moment God’s loving Holy Spirit of Christ indwells/baptizes the believer into the church (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5, 1Cor. 12:13)."

So what actually saves us then, what you said in #3:

"...providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28)." or what you say in #4?

Both-and.
#3 explains how Jesus atoned for the sins of humanity,
and #4 explains how sinners can become atoned for, which is via saving faith/repentance/accepting CJ as Lord.

 

[GWH]

OK GWH, I want to ask you a question, but please don't take it as a slight on you because it's not.

My gifted teacher graduated from Stanford University. And he would often mention his theology prop, and it surprised me when he said his prop wasn't a Christian. And I guess thats not uncommon.

You have some obvious intellect, but as per our discussions, it makes a hard stop when we get into the Greek texts. And thats ok, we all have our strengths and weaknesses.

My question is one we just take for granted here in CC. What I want to ask you is, are you a practicing Christian? Or are you in a gathering information mode to see if it's something you want to pull the trigger on?

Yes, I am a practicing Christian.
Are you? Or are you in a gathering information mode to see if it's something you want to pull the trigger on?