What to do in church meetings Protestant Tradition v. Scripture

[presidente]

Protestants have a tradition of singing songs having one man called the pastor preach the sermon which is a long speech followed by more songs. certain individuals praying and collecting the offering are intermixed in there and there's also Holy Communion which could be weekly or monthly depending on the Protestant church.

But the Bible does not teach this pattern.

In the Bible the apostles appointed multiple elders in a single church and exhorted them to pastor the church/flock.

Nowhere do we read that one pastor must preach a 45-minute sermon.
according to protestant tradition one clergyman exhorts the congregation but in scripture more than one member of the congregation speaks to edify the assembly.

According to tradition there is one sermon but according to scripture the people in the assembly may sing teach prophesy speaking tongues interpret tongues and exhort. (I Corinthians 14:26-31, Hebrews 10:24-25. cf. Romans 12:6-8, Romans 15:14.)

 

[Eli1]

Yes, good point but all these traditions are a way for people of different backgrounds and cultures to worship God so i don't see them as right or wrong but as a way for them to please God in their own ways.

For example, in my Church the Orthodox Church, the liturgy has not changed for 2000 years. Most Protestants would consider this boring.
Catholics have their own flavor too, which triggers a lot of Protestants and the Protestant ceremonies themselves are not so bad too because i've visited some churches where they play music, sing songs and yes the pastor does the traditional talk. From there, you can usually tell right away in what kind of church you're dealing with since they mix a lot of politics, false prophecies and a multitude of other things.
But there are good people in all of these churches with traditions around the world so don't judge the church based on their leader.

 

[presidente]

Yes, good point but all these traditions are a way for people of different backgrounds and cultures to worship God so i don't see them as right or wrong but as a way for them to please God in their own ways.

For example, in my Church the Orthodox Church, the liturgy has not changed for 2000 years. Most Protestants would consider this boring.
Catholics have their own flavor too, which triggers a lot of Protestants and the Protestant ceremonies themselves are not so bad too because i've visited some churches where they play music, sing songs and yes the pastor does the traditional talk. From there, you can usually tell right away in what kind of church you're dealing with since they mix a lot of politics, false prophecies and a multitude of other things.
But there are good people in all of these churches with traditions around the world so don't judge the church based on their leader.

What do you think of the fact that when an apostle actually, in scripture, addresses what should be done in church meetings that he doesn't mention this liturgy but rather instructs that members of the congregation take turns to prophesy teach and speak to edify one another?

 

[Eli1]

What do you think of the fact that when an apostle actually, in scripture, addresses what should be done in church meetings that he doesn't mention this liturgy but rather instructs that members of the congregation take turns to prophesy teach and speak to edify one another?

I think that tradition will always make its way into the churches and i've learned to reserve a lot of judgment for people of different cultures.
For example, the Orthodox Church in Japan looks very different in terms of iconography compared to a church in Greece. There are minor differences in liturgy too but if you think about it, the Japanese culture cannot adopt traditions from the Mediterranean region without adding some traditions of their own in terms of iconography and liturgy.
The important thing for me is that the basis of Christianity are there with Jesus as the central pillar and in every group, including my church you will always have a mix of non-edifying teachers or people as well as the edifying ones who you can always count on for good advice and learn something new.
You can say that i'm a cup-half-full guy so i simply avoid the non-edifying stuff and focus on the edifying. There is always something to learn in every group and denomination. Take all the good and enrich your spirit.

 

[Gideon300]

Protestants have a tradition of singing songs having one man called the pastor preach the sermon which is a long speech followed by more songs. certain individuals praying and collecting the offering are intermixed in there and there's also Holy Communion which could be weekly or monthly depending on the Protestant church.

But the Bible does not teach this pattern.

In the Bible the apostles appointed multiple elders in a single church and exhorted them to pastor the church/flock.

Nowhere do we read that one pastor must preach a 45-minute sermon.
according to protestant tradition one clergyman exhorts the congregation but in scripture more than one member of the congregation speaks to edify the assembly.

According to tradition there is one sermon but according to scripture the people in the assembly may sing teach prophesy speaking tongues interpret tongues and exhort. (I Corinthians 14:26-31, Hebrews 10:24-25. cf. Romans 12:6-8, Romans 15:14.)

Agree, but its not just Protestants. I've been a member of a church where they followed the biblical pattern and it was wonderful.

 

[oldman]

Maybe this will help.

The first church I attended in the early 70s let The Holy Spirit lead the whole thing but there was a rather loose pattern. We started with singing mostly scripture set to music. At the end of each song there was a period of time that varied where individually we praised the Lord - either in our native language or tongues as the Spirit led. After things grew silent we waited in silence upon the Lord to see if someone in the congregation would have a prophecy, word of knowledge, word of wisdom. Then as the Spirit led we would go to another scripture and again individual worship. Anyone in the congregation was free to sing out - start another song - as they were led. And again wait on the Lord.This went on as long as the Spirit so led. Eventually the pastor or and elder would give a teaching. Sometimes there was an alter call - sometimes not

Also need to note that about 2 dozen or so congregantes gathered in a separate prayer room to prayer for the service itself. to break through to the heavenlies in worship.

This service was not interrupted to collect an offering.

It is worth noting that we had only one worship leader, a piano and an organ - both on ground level with the congregation almost out of sight. The worship leader was there ( I think) to keep order - not that we had any disorder but he was there just in case.

 

[Nehemiah6]

...according to scripture the people in the assembly may sing teach prophesy speaking tongues interpret tongues and exhort.

The only problem with your interpretation is that Paul clearly said that tongues, prophecy, and "knowledge" would cease after the Bible was completed. So that would be out of the question.

At the same time, you have missed this: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Eph 4:11,12)...

Also this: Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness....

And this: As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

I agree with your basic premise. There must be a plurality of elders in each church (with various gifts) , with no one above anyone else. Not only should there be singing and prayers, but several MEN (Paul says two or three and that would be about right) should minister the Word according to the spiritual gift (s) they have received. But even those who are not elders may participate as the Lord leads. Regardless, the true Gospel should always be presented.

But there should also be a weekly observance of the Lord's Supper, and all members should bring their gifts and offerings. Not necessarily a "collection" but a place where they can put their offerings without any fanfare.

When the Reformation occurred, the Reformers failed to carefully look at the NT pattern, and adopted the ways of the RCC, particularly seminaries. Then evangelical churches copied the Protestant churches, and almost all churches forgot about the NT pattern, and started hiring pastors and making one man responsible for that which is the responsibilty of many.

 

[oldman]

When the Reformation occurred, the Reformers failed to carefully look at the NT pattern, and adopted the ways of the RCC, particularly seminaries. Then evangelical churches copied the Protestant churches, and almost all churches forgot about the NT pattern, and started hiring pastors and making one man responsible for that which is the responsibilty of many.

Thank you very much for this bit of history. It is a piece of the puzzle I have been looking for.

 

[Cameron143]

There are places in scripture that suggest a liturgy for worship. Isaiah 6 is one such place. Here we find Isaiah entering into the very real presence of God and views Him as He actually is...high and lifted up in all His holiness. This is where all true worship begins. And this is why many churches begin with a call to worship from scripture and sing songs that call to mind the excellencies of God and the works of God. Often a direct plea is given for God to come or a prayer of invocation.

Next we see that Isaiah, being in the presence of God, becomes very aware of his sinfulness in light of God's holiness, and confesses his sins. Many churches will follow a time of the praise of God with a call to confession. This is often accompanied by a passage of scripture and a time of silent confession.

Next we see that God has made provision for Isaiah's sins, as represented by the coal being applied to his lips, which represents both his and the people's sin. So often what is labeled a call to the assurance of forgiveness is read from scripture. A good example is 1 John 1:9.

Lastly, we find a call to experience the life of God in life. For Isaiah it was a call to service as a prophet. But in a very real sense, we are all called to participate in the commission of the gospel, giving of our resources and gifts, have communion with God through Christ, etc. So the remainder of the service would involve the collection of an offering, communion, and the ministry of the word of God for the edifying and preparation of the people of God.

 

[FRB72]

The only problem with your interpretation is that Paul clearly said that tongues, prophecy, and "knowledge" would cease after the Bible was completed. So that would be out of the question.

I have heard this claim before but never found a scripture reference that supported that specific an interpretation. What led you to that conclusion?

 

[Nehemiah6]

I have heard this claim before but never found a scripture reference that supported that specific an interpretation. What led you to that conclusion?

You will not find a verse that says "this is about the Bible". So you have to "connect the dots".

Peter said We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:19-21).

Please note the following:
1. "We have a more sure word of prophecy." This is in relation to the written Word of God. Peter puts his own, and all the apostles writings into the same category as "prophecy of the Scripture", and tells us that absolutely all the writers of the OT (called "Scripture" here) wrote under divine inspiration ("moved by the Holy Ghost").

2. Then Peter equates ALL of Paul's epistles with the OT Scriptures: And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:15,16)

3. Then Paul (before Peter) said this: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (2 Tim 3:16). Which implies a complete Bible.

4. Then John said this in the last chapter of the last book of the NT: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: (Rev 22:18) Was John speaking solely about Revelation, or was he applying this to the whole Bible, since he knew that all the apostles had passed on and he was the last one? the Bible closed with Revelation around 95-96 AD. Was it complete? Absolutely.

So did Paul's prophecy regarding the cessation of all prophecies come to pass? Absolutely. Therefore Paul was careful to say: But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away (1 Cor 13:10). Notice that he did not say "He who is perfect" but "that which is perfect". And the incomplete Bible ("that which is in part") was replaced with a complete Bible ("that which is complete")

Could that verse have also be stated as "that which is complete"? Absolutely.
Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
οταν δε ελθη το τελειον τοτε το εκ μερους καταργηθησεται
Strong's Concordance
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Definition: having reached its end, complete, perfect
Usage: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

The verses below verse 10 do not relate to the Bible, but to the perfection of the Christian. When we see God and Christ face-to-face after the Resurrection/Rapture, we all will be perfect and glorified. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1 Cor 13:12)

 

[Gideon300]

The only problem with your interpretation is that Paul clearly said that tongues, prophecy, and "knowledge" would cease after the Bible was completed. So that would be out of the question.

At the same time, you have missed this: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Eph 4:11,12)...

Also this: Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness....

And this: As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

I agree with your basic premise. There must be a plurality of elders in each church (with various gifts) , with no one above anyone else. Not only should there be singing and prayers, but several MEN (Paul says two or three and that would be about right) should minister the Word according to the spiritual gift (s) they have received. But even those who are not elders may participate as the Lord leads. Regardless, the true Gospel should always be presented.

But there should also be a weekly observance of the Lord's Supper, and all members should bring their gifts and offerings. Not necessarily a "collection" but a place where they can put their offerings without any fanfare.

When the Reformation occurred, the Reformers failed to carefully look at the NT pattern, and adopted the ways of the RCC, particularly seminaries. Then evangelical churches copied the Protestant churches, and almost all churches forgot about the NT pattern, and started hiring pastors and making one man responsible for that which is the responsibilty of many.

Where do you get the idea that tongues would cease when the Bible was completed? That concept is not supported by the scriptures.

I'm not saying that tongues are particularly important. They are the least of the gifts. The tongues talking Corinthians were also immature and divided. However, that does not invalidate the gift. Their problem was lack of fruit, not gifts.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Where do you get the idea that tongues would cease when the Bible was completed? That concept is not supported by the scriptures.

Did you read post #11? And do you know that modern tongues are simply babbling (politely called "free vocalization")? Or do I need to provide documentation?

...Free vocalization (glossolalia) occurs when (1) a human being produces a connected sequence of speech sounds, (2) he cannot identify the sound-sequence as belonging to any natural language that he already knows how to speak, (3) he cannot identify and give the meaning of words or morphemes (minimal lexical units),6 (4) in the case of utterances of more than a few syllables, he typically cannot repeat the same sound-sequence on demand, (5) a naive listener might suppose that it was an unknown language.... In almost all instances, linguists are confident that the samples of T-speech represent no known natural language and in fact no language that was ever spoken or ever will be spoken by human beings as their native tongue.
Linguistic and Sociological Analyses of Modern Tongues-Speaking: Their Contributions and Limitations (frame-poythress.org)

 

[presidente]

The only problem with your interpretation is that Paul clearly said that tongues, prophecy, and "knowledge" would cease after the Bible was completed. So that would be out of the question.

I wish you would take more care when asserting what the Bible says. Someone might be deceived into believing your statement. Paul does not say this. He says that when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away... in an epistle that says nothing about the completing of the canon, but which mentions the resurrection of believers and the return of Christ.

We should take I Corinthians 13 in line with other passage such as this one.

I Corinthians 1
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Not coming behind in spiritual gits waiting for Jesus to come back. Notice the word translated 'end' in verse 8, shows up again in chapter 15 (in a grammatically inflected form).

I Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


Compare verse 24 to chapter 1 verse 8.

The idea that the perfect comes at the return of Christ or Christ delivering up the kingdom to God, makes sense. There is nothing in the epistle that hints at the completion of the canon.

At the same time, you have missed this: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Eph 4:11,12)...

I am aware of the passage. How does that detract from what I wrote?

Also this: Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness....

I referenced that passage.

And this: As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

I am aware of this passage and it further aligns with what I wrote.

I agree with your basic premise. There must be a plurality of elders in each church (with various gifts) , with no one above anyone else.

There should be elders if men have matured to fill the role. Paula nd Barnabas left churches withoit elders for a time after they were first formed. This may be an issue on missions fields.

Not only should there be singing and prayers, but several MEN (Paul says two or three and that would be about right) should minister the Word according to the spiritual gift (s) they have received.

If you believe prophecy has ceased, why would you apply 'let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge' to other gifts?

 

[Gideon300]

Did you read post #11? And do you know that modern tongues are simply babbling (politely called "free vocalization")? Or do I need to provide documentation?

...Free vocalization (glossolalia) occurs when (1) a human being produces a connected sequence of speech sounds, (2) he cannot identify the sound-sequence as belonging to any natural language that he already knows how to speak, (3) he cannot identify and give the meaning of words or morphemes (minimal lexical units),6 (4) in the case of utterances of more than a few syllables, he typically cannot repeat the same sound-sequence on demand, (5) a naive listener might suppose that it was an unknown language.... In almost all instances, linguists are confident that the samples of T-speech represent no known natural language and in fact no language that was ever spoken or ever will be spoken by human beings as their native tongue.
Linguistic and Sociological Analyses of Modern Tongues-Speaking: Their Contributions and Limitations (frame-poythress.org)

 

[Gideon300]

We will have to agree to disagree. I used to speak in tongues. It was a spontaneous response to being baptised in the Holy Spirit. I don't any more, I just don't have a desire to do so. I am a little irritated by they overemphasis on tongues, both by those who oppose it but more so by Pentecostals who swear by it. It's the least of the gifts, according to Paul.

I don't know how you can categorise tongues of angels in human terms. I am also aware that there is a good deal of what is false as well as real. Some Pentecostals try to push people into speaking in tongues by telling them to speak the unintelligible first. This is foolish. My wife was talked into this and she was not even saved. So yes, at first she spoke gibberish. She was saved and baptised in the Holy Spirit a few years later. Now she has the real thing.

 

[wattie]

Context

1 Co 13 context is not about the return of Jesus. What ever is in part.. is what becomes perfect.

The gifts of knowledge, tongues and prophecy (and I think by association- tge gift of miracles) are perfected by 'that which is perfect' or 'the perfect thing'

What was in part about Jesus's ministry at that time?

Scripture surely was still in the process of inspiration, but Jesus Himself was not in part in anyway.

So you may say the maturity of the believer is what is in part..that becomes perfect.

You are still left with the bible ..being led by the Holy Spirit..as what makes someone perfected in their faith.

Also maturity of the believer is very subjective..so that usually gets put as the point or the second coming of Christ bringing maturity.

Then you are left with Paul telling people they can be mature in their faith then and there.

So you may sat it's the whole of Christendom coming to a point of the return of Christ..

You are still left with..way before that.. prophecy, tongues and knowledge being completely tied to the inspiration of the scriptures, the death of the apostles and the destruction of the Jewish temple.

You'd have to assume these events had no affect on the continuation of the sign and miraculous gifts.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You are still left with the bible ..being led by the Holy Spirit..as what makes someone perfected in their faith.

As stated in 2 Timothy 3:17. And not just faith.

 

[PaulThomson]

The only problem with your interpretation is that Paul clearly said that tongues, prophecy, and "knowledge" would cease after the Bible was completed. So that would be out of the question.

Paul does not say that tongues, prophecy, and "knowledge" would cease after the Bible was completed. That which is perfect comes when we see no longer through a glass darkly, but then face to face. We do not yet see Jesus face to face. So that which is perfect has not yet come.

 

[homwardbound]

Protestants have a tradition of singing songs having one man called the pastor preach the sermon which is a long speech followed by more songs. certain individuals praying and collecting the offering are intermixed in there and there's also Holy Communion which could be weekly or monthly depending on the Protestant church.

But the Bible does not teach this pattern.

In the Bible the apostles appointed multiple elders in a single church and exhorted them to pastor the church/flock.

Nowhere do we read that one pastor must preach a 45-minute sermon.
according to protestant tradition one clergyman exhorts the congregation but in scripture more than one member of the congregation speaks to edify the assembly.

According to tradition there is one sermon but according to scripture the people in the assembly may sing teach prophesy speaking tongues interpret tongues and exhort. (I Corinthians 14:26-31, Hebrews 10:24-25. cf. Romans 12:6-8, Romans 15:14.)

The true Church is not a building. In Greek Church word, means building, the original words was/is Ecclesia
We the believers, are the Ecclesia, the Called out ones, that God lives in each one and is willing for God to lead them, in season and out of season. As the Wind (Holy Spirit) goes to another person and where it comes from no one really knows. Me I grew up in Church, I was never saved in that Church. It was a social gathering. I got saved by God in God's Holy Spirit by God, out and about here in this world, in the highways and byways
seeing this clearly

Hebrews 8:1-4

Authorized (King James) Version

8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. 3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
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We are made new and free in God's Spirit and Truth, choosing freely the right way to do, each born with the knowledge of right and wrong, imputed in us each from first birth on. Through the done work of Son, at least this I see now after a long walk under Law, trying to obey perfectly, and never once could or can, being in a body that is not yet redeemed. Redeemed in God's Spirit by Son's one time done work, our soul's saved by God from the first day anyone believes God in this truth, (Ephesians 1:1-13)
Therefore the best I see anyone can do is be dead daily to the first born self and trust God to lead through you onto wherever you go, and whatever you do (Romans 6:1-12). Get the consciousness of sin plucked out of your mind (Hebrews 10) and get busy in trust to God and Son in the Holy Spirit given you, by belief to this done work for you too. And you will do as called to do

Luke 21:14-15

Authorized (King James) Version

14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
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