What would have to happen for you to change your Eschatological position?

[Gr8grace]

In order for me to change my eschatological position, this is what would have to happen;

I'd have to be raptured into to heaven. That's it. The temple can't be build until that happens right? But why would I want to come back to earth from heaven, which is golden, to a semi-golden age where sin and death still exists.

What all you people of same or different opinions of the "end times"? What would have to happen for you to change your mind?

Solid doctrine from the other side.

Secondly, the Jew would have to faaaaaaadeeeee aaawwwwwaaaayyyyyyy. And when we started to see Messianic Pols, Messianic Germans, Messianic Norwegians, Messianic Asians, Messianic Africans, Messianic Irish, Messianic Arabs..............and the Messianic Jew was no more.

 

[Angela53510]

So we move from grace vs law into eschatology in the BDF

I guess I better spend some time reading books, my bible and praying. Or I may just never make it into these questionable debates about things which are a guess at best!

I just know there is no rapture, and Christ only has ONE second coming! I guess that makes me amill!

But reading all the literalistic interpretations of Revelation, which is a book characterized by symbolism from start to finish, makes me realize that I am better off not in these discussions of people with such firm convictions, about things which are simply not known to us now.

What would it take to make me change my mind? A strong hermeneutic that premill is actually supported in the Bible, instead of made up in people's minds.

Show me somewhere that the word "millennium" is used anywhere in the bible besides Rev. 20.

Show me where on earth this secret rapture is spelled out in the Bible. Surely if it was that important, God would not have left just a few scattered clues to be pieced together by Darby, Scofield, Hal Lindsay and others in the 18th to 21st centuries.

Show me more than one Scripture about the earth being destroyed. Not a good idea to make a doctrine out of one verse. Like the other issues, too much flimsy Biblical support for a cobbled together view of end times.

I guess I'm done!

 

[tanach]

So we move from grace vs law into eschatology in the BDF

I guess I better spend some time reading books, my bible and praying. Or I may just never make it into these questionable debates about things which are a guess at best!

I just know there is no rapture, and Christ only has ONE second coming! I guess that makes me amill!

But reading all the literalistic interpretations of Revelation, which is a book characterized by symbolism from start to finish, makes me realize that I am better off not in these discussions of people with such firm convictions, about things which are simply not known to us now.

What would it take to make me change my mind? A strong hermeneutic that premill is actually supported in the Bible, instead of made up in people's minds.

Show me somewhere that the word "millennium" is used anywhere in the bible besides Rev. 20.

Show me where on earth this secret rapture is spelled out in the Bible. Surely if it was that important, God would not have left just a few scattered clues to be pieced together by Darby, Scofield, Hal Lindsay and others in the 18th to 21st centuries.

Show me more than one Scripture about the earth being destroyed. Not a good idea to make a doctrine out of one verse. Like the other issues, too much flimsy Biblical support for a cobbled together view of end times.

I guess I'm done!

You have just about summed it up. I did change my eschatology. I bought into the Hal Lindsay scenario years ago. I later
discovered that there were other views that were less sensational and more Biblical.

 

[breno785au]

What happens if you don't have a position?

 

[tanach]

What happens if you don't have a position?

make one up and get it published.

 

[Bookends]

Why would God change the way he does things? Why would he change the way he fulfills prophesy?

How many times is 70 times 7? and if we forgave our brother this many times, Does that means we stop forgiving him?

thousand generations is the same way, Also. the thousand generations is the mosaic covenant, not the Abrahamic. So it does not even fit the eschatological doctrinal truth. One was conditional. the other was not.

I'm not sure why you brought up Christ's forgiveness model. But anyway, I'm not sure you understand how forgiveness works. First, forgives is a two way street. I can only truly forgive someone if they recognize their error and ask for forgives. God operates the same way, people are going to Hell because they don't ask for forgiveness. As for me, I have to ready and willing at anytime to except their repentance, I have to be ready and willing to forgive. Second, the offenders repentance need to be genuine, there is no forgiveness for willful sin, but there is forgiveness if we sin out of human weakness, which is intentional sin. Now only God knows for sure which sin is intentional and willful, sure we can have an idea if the offender sins against you repeatedly and seems to have no remorse. However, we are commanded to forgive over and over (70 x 7, indefinitely), because we can't see thru the hearts of man like God can.

However, if was to interpret the bible in a wooden literal sense as you say you do, then 70 x 7 equals 490. This leads to a logical conclusion that we must count the amount of times an offense is given and at the 491 offense we don't need to forgive.

 

[Bookends]

So we move from grace vs law into eschatology in the BDF

I guess I better spend some time reading books, my bible and praying. Or I may just never make it into these questionable debates about things which are a guess at best!

I just know there is no rapture, and Christ only has ONE second coming! I guess that makes me amill!

But reading all the literalistic interpretations of Revelation, which is a book characterized by symbolism from start to finish, makes me realize that I am better off not in these discussions of people with such firm convictions, about things which are simply not known to us now.

What would it take to make me change my mind? A strong hermeneutic that premill is actually supported in the Bible, instead of made up in people's minds.

Show me somewhere that the word "millennium" is used anywhere in the bible besides Rev. 20.

Show me where on earth this secret rapture is spelled out in the Bible. Surely if it was that important, God would not have left just a few scattered clues to be pieced together by Darby, Scofield, Hal Lindsay and others in the 18th to 21st centuries.

Show me more than one Scripture about the earth being destroyed. Not a good idea to make a doctrine out of one verse. Like the other issues, too much flimsy Biblical support for a cobbled together view of end times.

I guess I'm done!

We didn't force you, Hun, to come, read and comment. You are free not to come here and comment on any forum. You are free to create a new topic on what matters most to you.

This topic matters to me, for I'm being told to shut-up, in a "nice way", at church about about this system of eschatology and like you, I see very little if no biblical support for it. And it bothers me. All you need to do is google "the dangers of dispensationalism" and read about the logical conclusions this system leads to. This system has many negative consequences in which you already indirectly alluded to, the false prophecies of Christ written by dispensational pundits.

I know I can't change anyone's mind that is already made up, who has this system ingrained in their brain. Only the HS can do that. But for those who are on the fence, they should be able to see the abible support, as you alluded to, or biblical support for your system of eschatology, which I agree with, compared with that of dispensationalist.

 

[Bookends]

I'm not sure why you brought up Christ's forgiveness model. But anyway, I'm not sure you understand how forgiveness works. First, forgives is a two way street. I can only truly forgive someone if they recognize their error and ask for forgives. God operates the same way, people are going to Hell because they don't ask for forgiveness. As for me, I have to ready and willing at anytime to except their repentance, I have to be ready and willing to forgive. Second, the offenders repentance need to be genuine, there is no forgiveness for willful sin, but there is forgiveness if we sin out of human weakness, which is non-intentional sin. Now only God knows for sure which sin is non-intentional and willful, sure we can have an idea if the offender sins against you repeatedly and seems to have no remorse. However, we are commanded to forgive over and over (70 x 7, indefinitely), because we can't see thru the hearts of man like God can.

However, if I was to interpret the bible in a wooden literal sense as you say you do, then 70 x 7 equals 490. This leads to a logical conclusion that we must count the amount of times an offense is given and at the 491 offense we don't need to forgive.

see corrections above, sorry.

 

[Angela53510]

We didn't force you, Hun, to come, read and comment. You are free not to come here and comment on any forum. You are free to create a new topic on what matters most to you.

This topic matters to me, for I'm being told to shut-up, in a "nice way", at church about about this system of eschatology and like you, I see very little if no biblical support for it. And it bothers me. All you need to do is google "the dangers of dispensationalism" and read about the logical conclusions this system leads to. This system has many negative consequences in which you already indirectly alluded to, the false prophecies of Christ written by dispensational pundits.

I know I can't change anyone's mind that is already made up, who has this system ingrained in their brain. Only the HS can do that. But for those who are on the fence, they should be able to see the abible support, as you alluded to, or biblical support for your system of eschatology, which I agree with, compared with that of dispensationalist.

Perhaps I should have been more clear in my last post. I wasn't just referring to this thread, but the fact that after seeing NO threads on eschatology, suddenly yesterday there were 3. I think it is very good to discuss this issue, but I just have a sinking feeling that it might dominate the threads for a year or two. Or maybe the grace vs law debates are just lingering a bit too long in my mind?

So I didn't truly mean I didn't want to comment. (That's just not my style! LOL) But just that I wondered mentally if this is going to be the new topic in many threads?

This is such a divisive topic and yet it has nothing to do with soteriology. In other words, no matter what we believe, misinformed, close to the truth, totally wrong; it will not affect our standing before God. So it really is a side issue. However, I have met dispensationalists who feel that anyone who is not one of them, is in fact a heretic and not saved.

I hope that will not happen in the forum. We can argue till we are blue in the face over which end times scenerio is true, but we should remember that whatever we believe, it does not affect our salvation.

However, I find the Bible so much more clear when I view it from an amill perspective. The contortions and twisting that premils have to do to make the Bible conform to their scenerios are just beyond understanding to me.

However, I do respect that there are people who have really studied the bible and scholarly sources who do not agree with me on this topic. I would hope I would never lose anyone's friendship over this topic!

 

[Stephen63]

Oh I am sure we will all adjust our theologies when we meet the Lord face to face....

Not when..... IF.

 

[breno785au]

Not when..... IF.

I hope you don't think that of yourself

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The true remnant of Israel DID repent when Christ came. There are no promises of Israelite repentance after that, only offers to individuals who respond to the Messiah

What does this have to do with Lev 26? Lev 26 says the whole nation has to repent, Not a remnant.

Stick with scripture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What matters is how you interpret 1000 years, Does God stop blessing after 30,000 years? Most Christians think a biblical generation is 40 years (not my point, but...just to say).. If you take the bible as literally as you say you do, then the period of time in which Israel is blessed is limited to a 30 thousand years. If this so, then is your future millennium more then 1000 years, for we know Israel has not been in existence for longer then approximately 1500 years, a relatively small time compared to a 30,000/40,000 years (even if you say a generation equals 12 or 15 years).

ok.....

This makes no sense. And I would not interpret what you just said this way. I would more interpret it along the lines of the way Jesus said forgive 70 times seven, and the passage Crossnote just posted.

No. What you just said would not convince me..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not sure why you brought up Christ's forgiveness model.

You brought up a thousand generations. I was just using another numeric term God used which I believe also showed what it means.. (Used scripture to interpret scripture sort of thing)

But anyway, I'm not sure you understand how forgiveness works. First, forgives is a two way street. I can only truly forgive someone if they recognize their error and ask for forgives. God operates the same way, people are going to Hell because they don't ask for forgiveness. As for me, I have to ready and willing at anytime to except their repentance, I have to be ready and willing to forgive. Second, the offenders repentance need to be genuine, there is no forgiveness for willful sin, but there is forgiveness if we sin out of human weakness, which is intentional sin. Now only God knows for sure which sin is intentional and willful, sure we can have an idea if the offender sins against you repeatedly and seems to have no remorse. However, we are commanded to forgive over and over (70 x 7, indefinitely), because we can't see thru the hearts of man like God can.

Lev 26: [SUP]40 [/SUP]‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
[SUP]41 [/SUP]and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
[SUP]42 [/SUP]then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land.

So 100 years from now. The nation of Israel confesses their sins against God. as shown here, (repent) God will forgive them, and remember the land (promise)

Yeah that's what I have been saying all along. and why I said, look at lev 26.

Israel has yet to repent of her sins against God (Daniel did, bit he is not Israel) So How can God say forgive 70 X 7 if he will not practice what he preaches

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

In order for me to change my eschatological position, this is what would have to happen;

I'd have to be raptured into to heaven. That's it. The temple can't be build until that happens right? But why would I want to come back to earth from heaven, which is golden, to a semi-golden age where sin and death still exists.

What all you people of same or different opinions of the "end times"? What would have to happen for you to change your mind?

the bible would have to change

 

[KohenMatt]

What all you people of same or different opinions of the "end times"? What would have to happen for you to change your mind?

My view of the end times or eschatology is that I don't really care what happens. It shouldn't deter me from proper Kingdom living.

What would make that change? For everything to be fulfilled.

 

[Bookends]

ok.....

This makes no sense. And I would not interpret what you just said this way. I would more interpret it along the lines of the way Jesus said forgive 70 times seven, and the passage Crossnote just posted.

No. What you just said would not convince me..

EG, where else do we 70 x 7 in Scripture? I think I finally get why Jesus used these specific numbers.

 

[Bookends]

You brought up a thousand generations. I was just using another numeric term God used which I believe also showed what it means.. (Used scripture to interpret scripture sort of thing)



Lev 26: [SUP]40 [/SUP]‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
[SUP]41 [/SUP]and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
[SUP]42 [/SUP]then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land.

So 100 years from now. The nation of Israel confesses their sins against God. as shown here, (repent) God will forgive them, and remember the land (promise)

Yeah that's what I have been saying all along. and why I said, look at lev 26.

Israel has yet to repent of her sins against God (Daniel did, bit he is not Israel) So How can God say forgive 70 X 7 if he will not practice what he preaches

Wow, EG, are you making predictions now. No where in Lev. 26 does it state that Israel will repent or and if does, when.

The Jews where sent into Babylon captivity for 70 via prophecy and fulfilled already. Lev. 26 states that if they didn't whole heartedly repent that they would receive 7 times more punishment (18 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins). Thus, after the 70 captivity Good was still dealing with them for 490 years via Daniel's prophecy (70 x 7). The reason for this is stated in Daniel 9:

“Seventy weeks[a] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[b] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

All these are fulfilled via the NT. God was no longer going to uphold Israel as His chosen economy because they filled up God cup of wrath to the brim, by killing God's Son. Thus Jesus used 70 x 7 as His forgiveness model because after the 490 years, once the Messiah was cut, there was no more forgiveness for the Nation, which doesn't mean individuals couldn't repent.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG, where else do we 70 x 7 in Scripture? I think I finally get why Jesus used these specific numbers.

Curious, I looked it up. I can not find it with a regular search..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wow, EG, are you making predictions now. No where in Lev. 26 does it state that Israel will repent or and if does, when.

I never said it did, I hope your not tryng t tell me I did.

I just showed what God would said would happen if they were taken away because of sin, and later repented.

So do you agree with what God told moses or not?

The Jews where sent into Babylon captivity for 70 via prophecy and fulfilled already.

Yes, As Jeremiah prophesied, and as Daniel admitten when he made his intercessary prayer in Dan 9.

Lev. 26 states that if they didn't whole heartedly repent that they would receive 7 times more punishment (18 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins). Thus, after the 70 captivity Good was still dealing with them for 490 years via Daniel's prophecy (70 x 7). The reason for this is stated in Daniel 9:

Oh I see where your going.

I do not see it this way, I see it as differing levels of punishment. Again, I do not like to add things which are not infered in scripture. No place in lev 26 is the words 70 X 7 used or inferred.

The final level of punishment was total military defeat. this actually occurred completely for the first time in 70 AD, and has gone on now for close to 2000 years. Israel still has not repented. So thats why Jerusalem is still in ruins.

“Seventy weeks[a] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[b] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

All these are fulfilled via the NT. God was no longer going to uphold Israel as His chosen economy because they filled up God cup of wrath to the brim, by killing God's Son. Thus Jesus used 70 x 7 as His forgiveness model because after the 490 years, once the Messiah was cut, there was no more forgiveness for the Nation, which doesn't mean individuals couldn't repent.

Um, Israel is still in transgression, Jerusalem (according to Gods will for jerusalem) is still under gentile rule (still in ruin)

So we have issues.

Again, If the nation of Israel repented, and admited their sins as God demands in lev 26, Will God keep his promise or not?

That is the issue