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Cup-of-Ruin
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"Ye shall seek Me, and shall not find Me, and where I am, thither ye cannot come"
What's so bad about calvinism?
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"Ye shall seek Me, and shall not find Me, and where I am, thither ye cannot come"
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Definition_Christ
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God created people to go to hell?... Wow..
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ
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"The answer is Jesus Christ. He is the fulfillment of God's justice and love. They meet at the cross: the love and the wrath of God. At the cross we see God's love for people and His wrath upon sin.
On the one hand we see God's love. Jesus died in our place. He voluntarily took upon himself the death penalty of sin that we deserve. The Bible says, "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins" (1Jn. 4.10).
But at the cross we also see God's wrath, as His just judgment is poured out upon sin. Jesus was our substitute. He tasted death for every human being and bore the punishment for every sin. None of us can imagine what he endured. As Olin Curtis has written, "There alone our Lord opens his mind, his heart, his personal consciousness to the whole inflow of the horror of sin, the endless history of it, from the first choice of selfishness on, on to the eternity of hell, the boundless ocean of desolation, he allows wave upon wave to overwhelm his soul."1 Jesus endured hell for us, so that none of us would have to endure it ourselves. That's why Jesus is the key, and life's supreme question becomes, "What will you do with Christ?"
In order to receive forgiveness, we need to place our trust in Christ as our Savior and the Lord of our lives. But if we reject Christ, then we reject God's mercy and fall back on His justice. And you know where you stand there. If we reject Jesus' offer of forgiveness, then there is simply is no one else to pay the penalty for your sin--except yourself.
Thus, in a sense, God doesn't send anybody to hell. His desire is that everyone be saved, and He pleads with people to come to Him. But if we reject Christ's sacrifice for our sin, then God has no choice but to give us what we deserve. God will not send us to hell--but we will send ourselves. Our eternal destiny thus lies in our own hands. It is a matter of our free choice where we shall spend eternity.
Now if this scenario is even possible, it follows that no inconsistency has been demonstrated between God's being all-loving and some people's going to hell. For given that God has created us with freedom of the will, it follows that He cannot guarantee that all persons will freely give their lives to Him and be saved. The Bible makes it very clear that God desires every person to be saved, and by His Spirit He seeks to draw every person to Himself. The only obstacle to universal salvation is therefore human free will. It's logically impossible to make someone freely do something. God's being all-powerful doesn't mean that He can do the logically impossible. Thus, even though He is all-powerful, God cannot make everyone freely be saved. Given human freedom and human stubbornness, some people may go to hell despite God's desire and efforts to save them.
Moreover, it is far from obvious that God's being all-loving compels Him to prefer a world in which no one goes to hell over a world in which some people do. Suppose that God could create a world in which everyone is freely saved, but there is only one problem: all such worlds have only one person in them! Does God's being all-loving compel Him to prefer one of these underpopulated worlds over a world in which multitudes are saved, even though some people freely go to hell? I don't think so. God's being all-loving implies that in any world He creates He desires and strives for the salvation of every person in that world. But people who would freely reject God's every effort to save them shouldn't be allowed to have some sort of veto power over what worlds God is free to create. Why should the joy and the blessedness of those who would freely accept God's salvation be precluded because of those who would stubbornly and freely reject it? It seems to me that God's being all-loving would at the very most require Him to create a world having an optimal balance between saved and lost, a world where as many as possible freely accept salvation and as few as possible freely reject it. "
Quote from Dr William Lane Craig
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Stanton
Guest
Cup of ruin I would agree with you. If I was a drunkard then I will drink, if I was a drug addict then I will do drugs, and if I am a sinner then I will sin. For all have fallen short of the Glory of God. Now on the talk of predestination here are a few verses that ya'll (yes I know Im southern) can look at and please let me know your thoughts.
<li style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10pt;">God Predestines
<li style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10pt;">God Predestines
- Predestination
- Greek Proorizo, Strongs # 4309. "to predetermine, decide beforehand; in the NT of God decreeing from eternity, to foreordain, appoint beforehand."
- Proorizo, "which the NT uses only with God as subject, expresses the thought of appointing a situation for a person, or a person for a situation." (The New Bible Dictionary, Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc., 1962.)
- Predestinate, "To predetermine or foreordain; to appoint or ordain beforehand by an unchangeable purpose," (Websters Dictionary, 1828 edition.)
- Predestine, "To destine or decree beforehand; foreordain," (Websters New World Dictionary, 1986 edition).
- Acts 4:27-28, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur."
- Rom. 8:29-30, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
- 1 Cor. 2:6-7, "Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God predestined before the ages to our glory."
- Eph. 1:4-5, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will."
- Eph. 1:11, "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."
- election is the Greek "eklektos." It is rendered as "elect" and "chosen." Strongs #1588.
- Matt. 22:14, "for many are called [kletos], but few are chosen [eklektos]."
- Kletos, "called, invited."
- Matt. 22:24, "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect [eklektos]."
- Matt. 22:31, "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect [eklektos] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."
- Luke 18:7, "now shall not God bring about justice for His elect [eklektos], who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?"
- Rom. 8:33, "Who will bring a charge against God’s elect [eklektos]? God is the one who justifies;"
- Romans 16:13, "Greet Rufus, a choice [eklektos] man in the Lord, also his mother and mine."
- Col. 3:12, "And so, as those who have been chosen [eklektos] of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;"
- 1 Tim. 5:21, "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen [eklektos] angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality."
- 2 John 1, "The elder to the chosen [eklektos] lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth,"
- 3 John 13, "The children of your chosen [eklektos] sister greet you."
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Cup-of-Ruin
Guest
John 8:21 "I will go My own way, and ye shall seek Me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go you cannot come"
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Leilaii425
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Definition_Christ
Guest
Than Jesus says, Unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins... He says unless you BELIEVE. It's our choice.
Context, context context.
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Cup-of-Ruin
Guest
It is written that Jesus Christ will send the Spirit of Truth even the Holy Spirit and "He shall testify to you and lead you into truth". I was dead in my sins until God sent His spirit to testify the truth to me and this was a free gift, it is a gift from God, His will is infinitely greater than mine, what is my will? well I can decide to put an extra teaspoon of sugar in my coffee, my will is exteremly limited.
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Stanton
Guest
Our will is nothing compared to God's will. Its like a tear drop in the ocean. God's will is more powerful than anything. If He wants to save this person and not that person but yet they were both given the opportunity then that's His ultimate will. We are without excuse when we face Him. The creation is around us all, the law is written on our hearts. God is glorified by His children coming to him and going to hell it shows His grace and his justice.
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1Covenant
Guest
Most people will at least agree that God has foreknowledge of all things.
If God then has foreknowledge, then he created Adam with the foreknowledge of man's rebellion and the foreknowledge of all men that would choose (by free will?) not to repent and seek life. God's very act of moving forward with creation is then an act of a certain comfort level with that fact?
Logically, it seems that by the act of moving forward anyway he is sealing their fate as he as foreseen it.
Now grant it that is not exactly what the doctrine of predestination believes but it seems like even believing in a foreknowledge leaves you in a similar dilemma since God is the starting agent.
Could be wrong...
Disclaimer I'm not arguing predestination above. I'm toying with the idea of foreknowledge and its implications. Interested in feedback on foreknowledge and God having begun this creation.
If God then has foreknowledge, then he created Adam with the foreknowledge of man's rebellion and the foreknowledge of all men that would choose (by free will?) not to repent and seek life. God's very act of moving forward with creation is then an act of a certain comfort level with that fact?
Logically, it seems that by the act of moving forward anyway he is sealing their fate as he as foreseen it.
Now grant it that is not exactly what the doctrine of predestination believes but it seems like even believing in a foreknowledge leaves you in a similar dilemma since God is the starting agent.
Could be wrong...
Disclaimer I'm not arguing predestination above. I'm toying with the idea of foreknowledge and its implications. Interested in feedback on foreknowledge and God having begun this creation.
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Cup-of-Ruin
Guest
Knowing all things from the beginning, does not mean that God cannot change His mind or repent, He has changed His mind, Moses made God repent, the question we might ask is; does God have something more to learn about Himself? As He creates does He learn more about His possiblities about His own destiny, you see He is not limited, He is unlimited and all is possible with Him, but on some things He says He will not repent, and will not change what He has said, it will be done, but is He capable of change? Yes.
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1Covenant
Guest
Just a point of correction...this is incorrect. the P stands for Perseverance of the saints. Those who are the saints of God will persevere until the end. This is not eternal security such as once saved always saved doctrine.
There are two groups of people here primarily in view in this doctrine. All those that profess Christ and fall away and all those that profess Christ and persevere.
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1Covenant
Guest
That is exactly my point he didn't change his mind or repent he went full steam ahead to create Adam. It was a willful decision on his part despite what he foreknew.
I'm just curious what people think of that.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ
This is spoken to the church, notice the word "appoint"?
Faith is like a seed, it is planted by hearing the gospel, it is watered by seeing the light of disicples, but it is God that provides the growth.
All men have turned away, none are good, what does a wicked man want with God?
When Jesus asked the apostles who they thought He was, they said the Son of God. Did He say good job you are paying attention? No, He said that God had testified to them the truth.
God is the author of Salvation, not a man's decision.
The redeemed have nothing in which to boast, for it is not by works(a choice we made) or the law(self-righteousness, a sinner being lost and dead in sin being holy enough to 'accept Christ'), but by the Grace of God.
This is spoken to the church, notice the word "appoint"?
Faith is like a seed, it is planted by hearing the gospel, it is watered by seeing the light of disicples, but it is God that provides the growth.
All men have turned away, none are good, what does a wicked man want with God?
When Jesus asked the apostles who they thought He was, they said the Son of God. Did He say good job you are paying attention? No, He said that God had testified to them the truth.
God is the author of Salvation, not a man's decision.
The redeemed have nothing in which to boast, for it is not by works(a choice we made) or the law(self-righteousness, a sinner being lost and dead in sin being holy enough to 'accept Christ'), but by the Grace of God.
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1Covenant
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I like the way that Augustine put it,
Now leaving the idea of foreknowledge and back to predestination, this is really the point. In predestination all of mankind has free will,l but they will, by their proper depraved nature, not choose God. So to say it differently, all men have free will except those upon which God has set his affections on and he is not willing that any of them perish. His sheep choose Him by the enlightening power of the Holy Spirit. His will for them not to perish is not impotent and He imposes himself on them for their good and His glory.
This is also why I can say that God is completely sovereign as the Bible declares and that man has free will as the Bible declares. Both are true.
Now leaving the idea of foreknowledge and back to predestination, this is really the point. In predestination all of mankind has free will,l but they will, by their proper depraved nature, not choose God. So to say it differently, all men have free will except those upon which God has set his affections on and he is not willing that any of them perish. His sheep choose Him by the enlightening power of the Holy Spirit. His will for them not to perish is not impotent and He imposes himself on them for their good and His glory.
This is also why I can say that God is completely sovereign as the Bible declares and that man has free will as the Bible declares. Both are true.
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Cup-of-Ruin
Guest
Adam had eternal life, he had greater power, intellect, ability, dominion before the fall, I dont think we can fully comprehend Adam's role and his relationship to God that existed before the fall, this is why Jesus is called the second Adam, by one man came sin into the world so therefore by one man there is remission of that sin and curse, Adam wasn't created cursed, his decendants were, at least born into the curse and a fallen condidtion.
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1Covenant
Guest
Cup - I posted some more thoughts on this, but you are missing my point, as my question is one about God not Adam. What God foreknew and his continued willful path forward to create that future of Hell he foresaw having people in it who would not choose Him.
Apart from predestination I'm just curious what people think of that "beginning" action in light of His foreknowledge of the future.
Apart from predestination I'm just curious what people think of that "beginning" action in light of His foreknowledge of the future.
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Definition_Christ
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Cup-of-Ruin
Guest
Actually the problem is arising because of your vision of 'Hell', God says He will not pass people through the fire, neither is it in his nature to do so, you picture in your mind human bodies being dragged over burning hot coals for infinity years, but God says His fire is eternal and the soul that sins will die. This is part of a greater problem in Christianity today or should I say churchianity and we have had these so called preachers like Jonathon Edwards and the like who are administative church types that condemn people to an infinity of torture and them claim it is God's pre-destined choice, this is ridiculous, nowhere is 'Hell" descibed as a place where unrepentent sinners are tortured with fire for infinity years while God and His saints look on gleefully, that is all just the Devil's play, blaspheming God, and His holy and merciful nature.
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