When did (will) Jesus open the first seal in Rev. 6 and what does it represent?
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Re: v.9 -
[quoting old post]
In past posts, I provided the link to the following info on that verse (boiled down here):
--of the 24 [total] manuscripts available (of the Greek) of Revelation chpt 5, 23 of them have it as "US [G2248 - hemas]" and only ONE manuscript (the only other one) leaves it blank [/untranslated]. (That ONE manuscript [of 24 total manuscripts (Rev5)] that leaves it blank/untranslated is the "Codex Alexandrinus".)
[end quoting post excerpt]
[end quoting old post]
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It's verse 10 that has the variants (mss and/or versions); some saying "us" in that verse (v.10), some saying "they".
Even if v.10 says "they" (whereas v.9 says "US"), this can easily be explained by "antiphonal singing" (as in OT passages), and when also considering the fact that the further down in this text you go, more voices are added.
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Interestingly, there are at least 3 OT passages/sections speaking of "24 [persons]" in a group... [which passages I find rather "revealing," if you will...]
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I don't think so. The way John wrote it, it seems that AS a seal is opened, THEN stuff happens. John heard "come and see." It seems then he saw and wrote what he saw.
Any theory that tries to rearrange John's numbered events will certainly be proven wrong.
The numbers (1-7) came from the Holy Spirit! It is amazing to me anyone would try to rearrange numbered events! John saw Jesus open the seals one after another. And John wrote the numbers as each seal was opened. I don't think he lost count! You wrote, (as noted in the Olivet Discourse). I hope you can expand on this.
I agree.
If you are hinting that the first is a false Christ, I would disagree.
The red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider ride together, leaving the White horse and rider to ride along. This makes sense, because the White horse and rider represent the church with the gospel, and the other horses represent the devil trying to stop the gospel - keep in inside the 1/4 of the earth that God limited them to.
Absolute TRUTH!
Any theory that tries to rearrange John's numbered events will certainly be proven wrong.
The numbers (1-7) came from the Holy Spirit! It is amazing to me anyone would try to rearrange numbered events! John saw Jesus open the seals one after another. And John wrote the numbers as each seal was opened. I don't think he lost count! You wrote, (as noted in the Olivet Discourse). I hope you can expand on this.
I agree.
If you are hinting that the first is a false Christ, I would disagree.
The red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider ride together, leaving the White horse and rider to ride along. This makes sense, because the White horse and rider represent the church with the gospel, and the other horses represent the devil trying to stop the gospel - keep in inside the 1/4 of the earth that God limited them to.
Absolute TRUTH!
[ ^ one example, per that last line in my post, shown below... from 1Chron25]
[quoting from old posts]
"In 1 Chronicles 25 we have the service of song. "Moreover, David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals." It is called "prophesying" because it so directly brought in God, which is the emphatic meaning of prophesying. "And the number of the workmen according to their service was" - so and so. There were twenty-four courses of the singers. Now, this was another remarkable change. In the tabernacle, song was not the characteristic feature, but sacrifice; but in the temple in the day of glory, the song of triumph is the new and suitable feature."
--William Kelly, 1 Chronicles 25
...see also the following commentary excerpt:
[quoting Gaebelein]
"The Twenty-Four Divisions [Courses] of Musicians" - 1 Chronicles 25
"As we have seen before, Asaph [means "gatherer"], Jeduthun (Ethan) [means "praising"] and Heman [means "faithful"] were the master leaders in song and music; their service was eminently spiritual, for we read “they should prophesy.” Heman especially is called the king’s seer in the words of God. This is a significant expression. How much there is in what is termed “worship”, which has nothing whatever of the words of God in it. In most of the songs used in our times there is little of the words of God and many contain unscriptural and sentimental phrases. Israel’s worship in song and music was to be spiritual, prophesying and in the words of God. Christian worship is not less. It is to be in spirit and in truth. “Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord” (Colossians 3:16). Asaph had four sons, Jeduthun six, and Heman fourteen, equal to twenty-four. They were divided into twenty-four courses of twelve men each, equal to 288, who served a week in turn. The names of six of the sons of Heman form, in the Hebrew, a complete sentence. Giddalti, Romamti-ezer, joshbekashah, Mallothi, Hothir and Mahazioth (verse 4) may be rendered in English:
I have magnified and I have raised up help;
Sitting in trouble, I have spoken oracles plentiful.
"This fact has aroused the suspicion of the critics regarding the genuineness of this entire list of names. “Now this sentence,” saith a critic, “is either an obscure and ancient prayer which hath been mistaken for a list of names by the compiler, or else the compiler has purposely strung together those significant names in such order as to form a sentence” (W.R. Harvey-Jellic). But it is not the mistake of the compiler or an invention. We read that God gave to Heman these sons and the pious Israelite named his sons so as to produce this meaning. There are many such messages in names throughout the Bible. (See annotations on Genesis 5.)"
--Arno C Gaebelein, on 1 Chronicles 25
[end quoting; bold, underline, and brackets mine; parentheses original]
[end quoting from old posts]
____________
[there's also the "24 courses" of the priests, most ppl refer to... as well as "24 names" hooked up, in Num1 (see CONTEXT in 1:1-4, as well as the wording "heads" and "leaders"--chpt 10:4 also)]
[quoting from old posts]
"In 1 Chronicles 25 we have the service of song. "Moreover, David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals." It is called "prophesying" because it so directly brought in God, which is the emphatic meaning of prophesying. "And the number of the workmen according to their service was" - so and so. There were twenty-four courses of the singers. Now, this was another remarkable change. In the tabernacle, song was not the characteristic feature, but sacrifice; but in the temple in the day of glory, the song of triumph is the new and suitable feature."
--William Kelly, 1 Chronicles 25
...see also the following commentary excerpt:
[quoting Gaebelein]
"The Twenty-Four Divisions [Courses] of Musicians" - 1 Chronicles 25
"As we have seen before, Asaph [means "gatherer"], Jeduthun (Ethan) [means "praising"] and Heman [means "faithful"] were the master leaders in song and music; their service was eminently spiritual, for we read “they should prophesy.” Heman especially is called the king’s seer in the words of God. This is a significant expression. How much there is in what is termed “worship”, which has nothing whatever of the words of God in it. In most of the songs used in our times there is little of the words of God and many contain unscriptural and sentimental phrases. Israel’s worship in song and music was to be spiritual, prophesying and in the words of God. Christian worship is not less. It is to be in spirit and in truth. “Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord” (Colossians 3:16). Asaph had four sons, Jeduthun six, and Heman fourteen, equal to twenty-four. They were divided into twenty-four courses of twelve men each, equal to 288, who served a week in turn. The names of six of the sons of Heman form, in the Hebrew, a complete sentence. Giddalti, Romamti-ezer, joshbekashah, Mallothi, Hothir and Mahazioth (verse 4) may be rendered in English:
I have magnified and I have raised up help;
Sitting in trouble, I have spoken oracles plentiful.
"This fact has aroused the suspicion of the critics regarding the genuineness of this entire list of names. “Now this sentence,” saith a critic, “is either an obscure and ancient prayer which hath been mistaken for a list of names by the compiler, or else the compiler has purposely strung together those significant names in such order as to form a sentence” (W.R. Harvey-Jellic). But it is not the mistake of the compiler or an invention. We read that God gave to Heman these sons and the pious Israelite named his sons so as to produce this meaning. There are many such messages in names throughout the Bible. (See annotations on Genesis 5.)"
--Arno C Gaebelein, on 1 Chronicles 25
[end quoting; bold, underline, and brackets mine; parentheses original]
[end quoting from old posts]
____________
[there's also the "24 courses" of the priests, most ppl refer to... as well as "24 names" hooked up, in Num1 (see CONTEXT in 1:1-4, as well as the wording "heads" and "leaders"--chpt 10:4 also)]
I've read some Greek scholars making the point that the phrase (in v.8) "having each" [a harp, etc] refers only to "the elders" because both of these phrases ("the elders" and the phrase "having each") are in the "masculine" (the "4 living beasts" is in the "neuter"), and this has something to do with how the only two [phrases/entities] which would "connect" (for lack of a better word, ATM), grammatically speaking, are the ones which "agree in gender".
https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/5-8.htm
"8 And when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures [neuter] and the twenty-four elders [masculine] fell down before the Lamb, each having [masculine] a harp, and golden bowls being full of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints."
That makes sense to me, both "grammatically," as well as the point being made in the overall "context".
https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/5-8.htm
"8 And when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures [neuter] and the twenty-four elders [masculine] fell down before the Lamb, each having [masculine] a harp, and golden bowls being full of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints."
That makes sense to me, both "grammatically," as well as the point being made in the overall "context".
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Since it is Jesus who rearranged the numbers you can take it up with Him.
I believe there is general agreement that the Great Tribulation corresponds to the events of the 7th seal. Yet Christ said that the events of the 6th seal will come AFTER the Great Tribulation.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Mt 24:29)
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (Rev 6:12-14)
Unless people are prepared to see that the Olivet Discourse runs parallel with the Seven Seals, they will not have a clear understanding of future events.
I believe there is general agreement that the Great Tribulation corresponds to the events of the 7th seal. Yet Christ said that the events of the 6th seal will come AFTER the Great Tribulation.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Mt 24:29)
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (Rev 6:12-14)
Unless people are prepared to see that the Olivet Discourse runs parallel with the Seven Seals, they will not have a clear understanding of future events.
E
We will have to agree to disagree, again the word men people or any other thing are not found in the text. They still have white robes and crowns in scripture only given to the raptured saints, and you have the word elder. A term only used for the church.
You still have far to many unanswered question about the rest of scripture and getting it to line up
again, the wrath of god is a time period, it did not start in ad 32”. There was no conqueror who went out to conquer in 32 Ad
You still have far to many unanswered question about the rest of scripture and getting it to line up
again, the wrath of god is a time period, it did not start in ad 32”. There was no conqueror who went out to conquer in 32 Ad
Though I agree there is correlation between Rev and Matt24, I DISAGREE that this ^ (as you have it) is such a "correlation".
--"moon INTO BLOOD / moon became AS BLOOD" (Joel 2:31 / Rev6:12 - 6th SEAL; where Joel says, "BEFORE the GREAT [aspect OF IT]" [i.e. IN the FIRST HALF of the "7 yrs"--with the phrase "the GREAT tribulation" referring only to "the SECOND half"<--So "BEFORE" *THAT*])
...is not the same as...
--"moon SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT" (Matt24:29-31 "AFTER the tribulation of those days"; i.e. AFTER the SECOND HALF)
These passages are not only DESCRIBING them distinctly, but the timing-clues provided in each text shows they occur at entirely distinct time-slots (though both relating to the future "7-yr TRIB" years, to be sure). I find that many folks have difficulty with the "chronology" issues, in these and related contexts.
--"moon INTO BLOOD / moon became AS BLOOD" (Joel 2:31 / Rev6:12 - 6th SEAL; where Joel says, "BEFORE the GREAT [aspect OF IT]" [i.e. IN the FIRST HALF of the "7 yrs"--with the phrase "the GREAT tribulation" referring only to "the SECOND half"<--So "BEFORE" *THAT*])
...is not the same as...
--"moon SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT" (Matt24:29-31 "AFTER the tribulation of those days"; i.e. AFTER the SECOND HALF)
These passages are not only DESCRIBING them distinctly, but the timing-clues provided in each text shows they occur at entirely distinct time-slots (though both relating to the future "7-yr TRIB" years, to be sure). I find that many folks have difficulty with the "chronology" issues, in these and related contexts.
I just found this:
There are only 287 extant Greek manuscripts of Revelation in comparison with 2361 of the Gospels, https://www.kjvtoday.com/home/revelation
I am confident that the first seal was opened around 32 AD. It is the context. If you believed John's context, you would agree. I think you must read Rev. 5 much differently that I do. I wished I could read ancient Greek!
There are only 287 extant Greek manuscripts of Revelation in comparison with 2361 of the Gospels, https://www.kjvtoday.com/home/revelation
I am confident that the first seal was opened around 32 AD. It is the context. If you believed John's context, you would agree. I think you must read Rev. 5 much differently that I do. I wished I could read ancient Greek!
You did well here. I want to add to it.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; (Revelation 6) (Emphasis added)
We all should know what causes the moon to appear blood red: we just had four blood moons in a row in 2014 and 2015. A blood moon is speaking of a total eclipse of the moon. How would someone back in John’s day know if the moon appeared red? Someone would have to see it to know if they were seeing this sign, right? In other words, to know if the moon is a blood moon, it must be visible.
What about the sun appearing “black as sackcloth?” Sackcloth back then was frequently made from black goat hair, so it did appear black. The question is, what condition of the sun would make it appear black? Again it is speaking of a total eclipse of the sun. In a total eclipse of the sun, the sun appears black as coal, with a halo around it. Again, how would anyone know the sun appeared black? They would have to see it: the sun would have to be visible. (I understand, God could certainly cause this sign without eclipes. The point is, they must be visible.)
In Matthew and Mark, the same Greek word is used for darkness. skotizó: to darken It is a verb.
Strong’s: “to cover with darkness, to darken; passive, to be covered with darkness, be darkened”: properly, of the heavenly bodies, as deprived of light
Let’s compare: in Matthew 24 the text tells of the sun and moon with an absence of light, or total darkness; meaning, both the sun and moon would be invisible. On the other hand, the sign at the 6th seal is speaking of total eclipses that are visible. No one would know if the moon appear blood red unless they saw it. No one would know if the sun appeared black unless they saw it.
It should be clear these are not the same sign. It is just as clear, they don’t happen at the same time. The sign at the 6th seal is the sign for the start of the Day of the Lord and will be seen before the 70th week begins. The sign in Matthew 24 come as the sign for His coming which is shown in Revelation 19. “After the tribulation of those days” in the book of Revelation would be after the 7th vial that ends the 70th week. If God had allowed John to see this sign John would have written it somewhere between the 7th vial that ends the 70th-week and His coming as shown in chapter 19. However, God did not show this to John, so John did not write of it. Many events will take place between the 6th seal and the 7th vial: the entire seven years of events.
It should be clear that the sign in the sun, moon, and stars “after the tribulation of those days” is not the same sign seen at the 6th seal. It is plain and simple: the sign at the 6th seal is the sign of the coming Day of the Lord and will be seen before the 70th week begins, while the sign “after the tribulation” will be seen over seven years later and will be the sign for the coming of our Lord. (quotes from Matthew 24.)
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; (Revelation 6) (Emphasis added)
We all should know what causes the moon to appear blood red: we just had four blood moons in a row in 2014 and 2015. A blood moon is speaking of a total eclipse of the moon. How would someone back in John’s day know if the moon appeared red? Someone would have to see it to know if they were seeing this sign, right? In other words, to know if the moon is a blood moon, it must be visible.
What about the sun appearing “black as sackcloth?” Sackcloth back then was frequently made from black goat hair, so it did appear black. The question is, what condition of the sun would make it appear black? Again it is speaking of a total eclipse of the sun. In a total eclipse of the sun, the sun appears black as coal, with a halo around it. Again, how would anyone know the sun appeared black? They would have to see it: the sun would have to be visible. (I understand, God could certainly cause this sign without eclipes. The point is, they must be visible.)
In Matthew and Mark, the same Greek word is used for darkness. skotizó: to darken It is a verb.
Strong’s: “to cover with darkness, to darken; passive, to be covered with darkness, be darkened”: properly, of the heavenly bodies, as deprived of light
Let’s compare: in Matthew 24 the text tells of the sun and moon with an absence of light, or total darkness; meaning, both the sun and moon would be invisible. On the other hand, the sign at the 6th seal is speaking of total eclipses that are visible. No one would know if the moon appear blood red unless they saw it. No one would know if the sun appeared black unless they saw it.
It should be clear these are not the same sign. It is just as clear, they don’t happen at the same time. The sign at the 6th seal is the sign for the start of the Day of the Lord and will be seen before the 70th week begins. The sign in Matthew 24 come as the sign for His coming which is shown in Revelation 19. “After the tribulation of those days” in the book of Revelation would be after the 7th vial that ends the 70th week. If God had allowed John to see this sign John would have written it somewhere between the 7th vial that ends the 70th-week and His coming as shown in chapter 19. However, God did not show this to John, so John did not write of it. Many events will take place between the 6th seal and the 7th vial: the entire seven years of events.
It should be clear that the sign in the sun, moon, and stars “after the tribulation of those days” is not the same sign seen at the 6th seal. It is plain and simple: the sign at the 6th seal is the sign of the coming Day of the Lord and will be seen before the 70th week begins, while the sign “after the tribulation” will be seen over seven years later and will be the sign for the coming of our Lord. (quotes from Matthew 24.)
These events do not repeat themselves. So either they all belong together or there is a problem with interpretation.
As to the divergence in how the events are described, all you have to do is go to Mark 13 and Luke 21 and see that each one describes the same events in a slightly different manner. But the sun, moon, stars, heavens, and also the shaking of the earth refer to one and the same phenomenon -- the 6th seal events AFTER the 7th seal events.
As to the divergence in how the events are described, all you have to do is go to Mark 13 and Luke 21 and see that each one describes the same events in a slightly different manner. But the sun, moon, stars, heavens, and also the shaking of the earth refer to one and the same phenomenon -- the 6th seal events AFTER the 7th seal events.
I'm not suggesting that these events "repeat themselves".
I'm saying that a "moon INTO BLOOD / BECAME AS BLOOD" is entirely DISTINCT (in appearance and description) from a "moon SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT"
(one is reddish in color, the other is dark)
And, in fact, the timing-clues provided in both Joel 2:31 and in Matt24:29-31 shows these very DISTINCT items to be occurring at very DISTINCT points in time...
ONE of them "BEFORE the GREAT [aspect OF the TRIB]; the OTHER *AFTER* that aspect of it, that being "AFTER" the trib in its entirety (and in particular, per the text in Matt24, *AFTER* that SECOND HALF [i.e. "GREAT tribulation"] is concluded.)
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[hackin... i got ur number!]
I'm saying that a "moon INTO BLOOD / BECAME AS BLOOD" is entirely DISTINCT (in appearance and description) from a "moon SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT"
(one is reddish in color, the other is dark)
And, in fact, the timing-clues provided in both Joel 2:31 and in Matt24:29-31 shows these very DISTINCT items to be occurring at very DISTINCT points in time...
ONE of them "BEFORE the GREAT [aspect OF the TRIB]; the OTHER *AFTER* that aspect of it, that being "AFTER" the trib in its entirety (and in particular, per the text in Matt24, *AFTER* that SECOND HALF [i.e. "GREAT tribulation"] is concluded.)
____________
[hackin... i got ur number!]
I have no doubt that you believe it is truth. Most people on Christian forms think they have a "corner" on truth.
Perhaps it is you who needs further study on this Greek word. it CAN mean to violently snatch. I agree. But it certainly can mean to pull away without violence.
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up G726 into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away G726 Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Jde 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling G726 them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
In other words, when Jesus ascended, harpazo fits that just as well as it fits the rapture.
The KJV translates Strong's G726 in the following manner: catch up (4x), take by force (3x), catch away (2x), pluck (2x), catch (1x), pull (1x).
Sorry but I will go with 6000 years of human history where VIRGO has always meant the virgin. And when Jesus Christ, the head of the church said to me that He CHOSE to include how the Dragon tried to kill Him as a young child in those first five verses - I will go with the Head of the Church and the Author of Revelation rather than your theories. You are certainly free to believe what you will. However, if I were in your place, I would at least CONSIDER what Jesus said to me.
On the other hand, I understand well how POWERFUL preconceptions are.
Question: is the Virgin (Mary" of Israel? Check!
Are those who will flee a subset of Israel - those living in Judea? CHeck!
In other words, you have some good points.
I heard from the Master! Why then would I believe you when He said something different? He is the AUTHOR of the book.
So according to your theory, only 1/3 of the spirits in high places get cast down in this future war in heaven?
I think not! I wonder if you ever read "Paradise Lost?"
Coffman Commentator said:
"ancient interpreters took the passage as referring to the fall of Satan, who took with him one third of the angels of heaven (cf. Milton's Paradise Lost)"
So far your "batting average" here is quite low.
The only reason that you reject this, as do others, is because it doesn't fit in with your interpretation. This is how it is with many. They adopt a teaching and they can receive no other message and reject it when some one comes along with the true answer.
The switch from church (chapters 1 thru 3) to Saints (the rest of the book) is making a division between the two. The use of the word hagios/saints is in reference to the saints who will come out of the great tribulation who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. John had already previously wrote to the seven churches and now he sees this group which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, which would make them all Gentiles. The fact that the elder asks John who they are, demonstrates that this group is not the church and is never referred to as such. These are the saints who will have become believers after the church is gathered in Revelation 4:1 and during the time period of God's wrath. The church is never mentioned in the narrative of God's wrath, for they are caught up in Rev.4:1 with John representing the event as a prophetic allusion. The abomination is also mentioned in Revelation, which people fail to recognize because the word 'abomination' used in Daniel 9:27 and quoted by the Lord in Matt.24:15, is not used, but is instead described.
No, John does not start the judgment at the 6th seal, erroneous expositors do that! Jesus as the Lamb, is the One who is opening the seals and is therefore responsible for the resulting fatalities and destruction. The announcement "the great day of their wrath has come" is a general announcement which includes the plagues of wrath that will have already taken place, i.e. seals 1 thru 5.
The first seal rider on the white horse, is symbolically representing the antichrist and is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse of Revelation 19:11, which is the Lord.
When the 4th seal rider which is death on the pale green horse with Hades following close behind, they are given power to kill a fourth of the earth, which would be 25% of the earths population killed during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. Combine that with the 6th trumpet which is a third of the inhabitants killed and you have over half the earths population killed during the first 3 1/2 years and that is not including the fatalities that will come from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor from the bowl judgments.
The events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be nothing like the world has ever seen. They are meant to be noticed and to get everyone's attention.
The gathering of the church (rapture) is the next event to take place which is imminent. Once that takes place, the 'Day of the Lord' will begin, with that ruler, the antichrist establishing his firm covenant with Israel which will allow them to build their temple and begin to make sacrifices and offerings.
In Daniel 9:24 seventy seven year periods or 490 years, was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. Seven 'seven' year periods or 49 years to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Then add on sixty nine seven year periods (434 years) at the end of which the Messiah would be cut off, which was Christ crucified. At the time the Lord paused the fulfillment of that last seven years and began to build His church. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear and gather the church. After that, the Lord will pick up right where He left off in fulfillment of that last seven years, complete with a temple and Israel under the law, just as it was when the decree was made. It is during this seven years that God will fulfill the decree to:
"finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place."
It is during this time that God will also pour His wrath out upon a Christ rejecting world.[/QUOTE]
You want to start the Antichrist Beast in chapter 6, but John does not mention him until chapter 13.
If the first rider is the Antichrist, then the others riders must be his henchmen. Now you have limited the Antichrist Beast to 1/4 of the earth. Sorry, but John tells us he is given all the nations of the world.
Finally, you are pulling the first seal out of its first century context. John is clear that Jesus got the book as soon as He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. You are 2000 years off.
The switch from church (chapters 1 thru 3) to Saints (the rest of the book) is making a division between the two. The use of the word hagios/saints is in reference to the saints who will come out of the great tribulation who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. John had already previously wrote to the seven churches and now he sees this group which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, which would make them all Gentiles. The fact that the elder asks John who they are, demonstrates that this group is not the church and is never referred to as such. These are the saints who will have become believers after the church is gathered in Revelation 4:1 and during the time period of God's wrath. The church is never mentioned in the narrative of God's wrath, for they are caught up in Rev.4:1 with John representing the event as a prophetic allusion. The abomination is also mentioned in Revelation, which people fail to recognize because the word 'abomination' used in Daniel 9:27 and quoted by the Lord in Matt.24:15, is not used, but is instead described.
No, John does not start the judgment at the 6th seal, erroneous expositors do that! Jesus as the Lamb, is the One who is opening the seals and is therefore responsible for the resulting fatalities and destruction. The announcement "the great day of their wrath has come" is a general announcement which includes the plagues of wrath that will have already taken place, i.e. seals 1 thru 5.
The first seal rider on the white horse, is symbolically representing the antichrist and is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse of Revelation 19:11, which is the Lord.
When the 4th seal rider which is death on the pale green horse with Hades following close behind, they are given power to kill a fourth of the earth, which would be 25% of the earths population killed during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. Combine that with the 6th trumpet which is a third of the inhabitants killed and you have over half the earths population killed during the first 3 1/2 years and that is not including the fatalities that will come from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor from the bowl judgments.
The events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be nothing like the world has ever seen. They are meant to be noticed and to get everyone's attention.
The gathering of the church (rapture) is the next event to take place which is imminent. Once that takes place, the 'Day of the Lord' will begin, with that ruler, the antichrist establishing his firm covenant with Israel which will allow them to build their temple and begin to make sacrifices and offerings.
In Daniel 9:24 seventy seven year periods or 490 years, was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. Seven 'seven' year periods or 49 years to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Then add on sixty nine seven year periods (434 years) at the end of which the Messiah would be cut off, which was Christ crucified. At the time the Lord paused the fulfillment of that last seven years and began to build His church. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear and gather the church. After that, the Lord will pick up right where He left off in fulfillment of that last seven years, complete with a temple and Israel under the law, just as it was when the decree was made. It is during this seven years that God will fulfill the decree to:
"finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place."
It is during this time that God will also pour His wrath out upon a Christ rejecting world.[/QUOTE]
You want to start the Antichrist Beast in chapter 6, but John does not mention him until chapter 13.
If the first rider is the Antichrist, then the others riders must be his henchmen. Now you have limited the Antichrist Beast to 1/4 of the earth. Sorry, but John tells us he is given all the nations of the world.
Finally, you are pulling the first seal out of its first century context. John is clear that Jesus got the book as soon as He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. You are 2000 years off.
