When Do Christians Receive The Holy Spirit ?

[Wansvic]

... Romans 8:9 says that anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him. So were the men in Acts 19 already Christians without the Spirit, or were they disciples of John who had not yet come to full faith in Christ? The text itself points to the latter, since they only knew John's baptism.

The disciples of John actually received the Spirit of Christ in Acts 19:6. The Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit.

1. Romans 8:9​

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Paul uses "Spirit of God" and "Spirit of Christ" interchangeably in the same verse.

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2. Philippians 1:19​

"For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ."

The Spirit supplied to believers is called the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

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3. Acts 16:6-7​

"They were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia..."

"...they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not."

The Holy Ghost and the Spirit are used interchangeably in the same account. Many manuscripts read "Spirit of Jesus."

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4. 1 Peter 1:10-11​

"Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify..."

Peter says the Spirit that inspired the Old Testament prophets was the Spirit of Christ.

Compare with:

5. 2 Peter 1:21​

"Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

The prophets were moved by the Holy Ghost; Peter also says they had the Spirit of Christ.

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6. Galatians 4:6​

"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."

The Spirit dwelling in believers is called the Spirit of God's Son.

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7. John 14:16-18​

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter..."

"I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

Jesus promises the coming of the Comforter (the Holy Ghost), then says, "I will come to you."

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8. John 14:26​

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost..."

The Comforter is explicitly identified as the Holy Ghost.

Combining John 14:18 and 14:26 shows that the Comforter who comes is the Holy Ghost, and Jesus says, "I will come to you."

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9. Ephesians 3:16-17​

"Strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith..."

The indwelling Spirit and the indwelling Christ are connected.

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10. Colossians 1:27​

"Christ in you, the hope of glory."

Compare with Romans 8:9-11 where the indwelling Spirit is called both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.

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11. 2 Corinthians 3:17​

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

Paul directly connects the Lord and the Spirit.

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12. 1 Corinthians 15:45​

"The last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

Referring to Christ, Paul describes Him as the life-giving Spirit.

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Summary​

The Bible uses several titles for the same indwelling Spirit:

• Holy Ghost (John 14:26; Acts 2:4)
• Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13)
• Spirit of God (Romans 8:9)
• Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9; 1 Peter 1:11)
• Spirit of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:19)
• Spirit of His Son (Galatians 4:6)
• Comforter (John 14:26)

A particularly strong chain of evidence is:

1. The prophets were moved by the Holy Ghost (2 Peter 1:21).
2. The prophets had the Spirit of Christ in them (1 Peter 1:11).
3. Therefore, the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Ghost are one and the same Spirit.

Likewise:

1. Believers have the Spirit of God dwelling in them (Romans 8:9).
2. The same verse calls Him the Spirit of Christ.
3. Therefore, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are the same indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[Wansvic]

You keep appealing to narrative passages in Acts, but you're overlooking the direct doctrinal teaching of the epistles.

If Acts 19 establishes a universal pattern, then why does Paul later tell the Ephesians that they were sealed with the Holy Spirit when they heard and believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13)? He doesn't point them to a later experience, laying on of hands, or speaking in tongues.

Likewise, Romans 8:9 says that anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him. So were the men in Acts 19 already Christians without the Spirit, or were they disciples of John who had not yet come to full faith in Christ? The text itself points to the latter, since they only knew John's baptism.

Acts 8 and Acts 19 describe unique historical events. Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and 1 Corinthians teach what is true for all believers. Doctrine should interpret narrative, not the other way around.

My question is simple: Can you show a single passage in the epistles that teaches a born-again believer can belong to Christ yet remain without the Holy Spirit until a later experience?

Note when and where Paul wrote his epistles in relationship to the Acts of the Apostles:

https://christianchat.com/threads/acts-and-the-epistles-speak-with-one-voice.223770/#post-5758888

 

[JacobGilbert]

What many are unaware of, is that the apostles' epistles must be read alongside the Book of Acts. Acts provides the historical record of how people responded to the gospel, while the epistles were often written later to those same believers to instruct, encourage, and remind them of truths they had already experienced.

A clear example is the church at Ephesus. In Acts 19:1-7, Paul encountered disciples who had only received John's baptism. After teaching them about Jesus Christ, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, and afterward they received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. Years later, Paul wrote the Epistle to the Ephesians to these same believers. Rather than repeating the details of their conversion, he reminded them:

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" (Ephesians 1:13).


The "word of truth" they had heard was the very gospel preached to them in Acts 19. They believed in Jesus Christ, were baptized in His name, and afterward were "sealed with the Holy Ghost." Thus, Ephesians 1:13 does not replace or contradict Acts 19:1-7; rather, it confirms the experience already recorded there. The historical account in Acts shows how the Ephesians received salvation, while the epistle explains the spiritual significance of what they had already experienced.

That's a creative harmonization, but it doesn't hold up.


Ephesians 1:13 doesn't say "remember when Paul laid hands on you years ago and you spoke in tongues after believing." It says in whom also, after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit. Paul directly ties the sealing to hearing the gospel and believing no second step, no laying on of hands, no tongues required as evidence. If the Acts 19 episode was the normative pattern for all believers (as your view claims), Paul is strangely silent about it when writing to the very same church.


Moreover, Ephesians isn't a private memo to those exact twelve men from Acts 19. By the time Paul writes the letter, the church in Ephesus is a full, growing congregation (Acts 19:8-20 shows massive impact). The language in Eph 1 is the standard, universal description for all who are in Christ, not a recap of one unusual transitional incident involving John's disciples who hadn't even heard the full gospel yet.


This is exactly why we let the clear doctrinal teaching in the epistles interpret the historical narratives in Acts, not the other way around. See Galatians 3:2 ("Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?") and 1 Corinthians 12:13 ("For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body"). The pattern is consistent: believe the gospel → receive the Spirit. Acts 19 was exceptional, not the rule.

 

[JacobGilbert]

Yes, "Spirit of Christ" = Holy Spirit. Everyone agrees on that. But you just proved my point while dodging it.

Romans 8:9 is devastating to your position: "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His." This is not describing a second blessing for already saved people. Paul presents the indwelling Spirit as the essential mark of belonging to Christ, full stop.

So what does that make the twelve men in Acts 19 before Paul showed up? They openly admitted that
1 They had only received John’s baptism.
2 They had not even heard that there was a Holy Spirit.

They were sincere disciples of John, but they were not yet New Covenant Christians. Paul had to preach the full gospel to them ("that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus"). Only then did they believe, get baptized in Jesus’ name, and receive the Spirit with tongues.

They weren’t “Christians without the Spirit.” They were pre-Pentecost-style disciples who hadn’t yet trusted in the finished work of Christ. That’s why this (and Acts 8 with the Samaritans) was a unique transitional event not the normal Christian experience.

The epistles are brutally consistent on this:
Galatians 3:2 — “Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”
Ephesians 1:13 — “After that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit…”
1 Corinthians 12:13 — “By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body…”

Don’t turn rare transitional incidents into a required second step that contradicts the clear doctrinal standard of the epistles. If someone doesn’t have the Spirit, they’re not in Christ (Romans 8:9). Period.

 

[JacobGilbert]

Note when and where Paul wrote his epistles in relationship to the Acts of the Apostles:

https://christianchat.com/threads/acts-and-the-epistles-speak-with-one-voice.223770/#post-5758888

Got it. So after all the proof-texting, your best response is still “just read Acts with the epistles bro” while completely ignoring the actual question.

Let me make it simple, since we’re going in circles:

Show me one single passage in the epistles that teaches a born-again believer can belong to Christ and still be without the Holy Spirit until some later experience of laying on of hands and tongues.

You can’t. Because it doesn’t exist.

Romans 8:9 isn’t a suggestion it’s a diagnostic: “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.” The Acts 19 guys weren’t “Christians missing the second blessing.” They were John the Baptist fans who hadn’t heard the gospel yet. Once they believed in Jesus, they received the Spirit. Transitional event, not the Christian norm.

You’re doing the classic Pentecostal move: build an entire doctrine on three unusual narrative snapshots in Acts while the epistles (which actually teach church doctrine) say the exact opposite.

At this point it’s not exegesis anymore — it’s eisegesis with extra steps. I’ll stick with Paul’s clear teaching over your creative harmonization.

Conversation over.

 

[GWH]

The Spirits person judges all things and is under no man's judgement.

The evidence of a surrendered one is so obvious to one who has, and is surrendering . The same can be said of one who has not surrendered.

The reason I chose you to highlight is I think you may be one able to do it.

What are you waiting for? Your calling could end at any time.

Only a surrendered life will avail what's waiting for you, not intellect.

All to Jesus I surrender,
All to Him I freely give;
I will ever love and trust Him,
In His presence daily live.

Refrain:
I surrender all, I surrender all;
All to Thee, my blessed Savior,
I surrender all.

2 All to Jesus I surrender,
Make me, Savior, wholly Thine;
Let me feel Thy Holy Spirit,
Truly know that Thou art mine. [Refrain]

3 All to Jesus I surrender,
Lord, I give myself to Thee;
Fill me with Thy love and power,
Let Thy blessing fall on me. [Refrain]

 

[Wansvic]

That's a creative harmonization, but it doesn't hold up.


Ephesians 1:13 doesn't say "remember when Paul laid hands on you years ago and you spoke in tongues after believing." It says in whom also, after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit. Paul directly ties the sealing to hearing the gospel and believing no second step, no laying on of hands, no tongues required as evidence. If the Acts 19 episode was the normative pattern for all believers (as your view claims), Paul is strangely silent about it when writing to the very same church.


Moreover, Ephesians isn't a private memo to those exact twelve men from Acts 19. By the time Paul writes the letter, the church in Ephesus is a full, growing congregation (Acts 19:8-20 shows massive impact). The language in Eph 1 is the standard, universal description for all who are in Christ, not a recap of one unusual transitional incident involving John's disciples who hadn't even heard the full gospel yet.


This is exactly why we let the clear doctrinal teaching in the epistles interpret the historical narratives in Acts, not the other way around. See Galatians 3:2 ("Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?") and 1 Corinthians 12:13 ("For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body"). The pattern is consistent: believe the gospel → receive the Spirit. Acts 19 was exceptional, not the rule.

You neglect to include a portion of the Ephesian scripture that reveals what was shared: "In whom you trusted, after you heard the word of truth the gospel of salvation..." What word of truth is Paul referring to if not what he explained to the Ephesians in Acts 19?

Another relevant point is Paul's letter was sent to the Ephesus church of whom were the 12 and others that Paul and the 12 taught. The account in Acts reveals Paul stayed in Ephesus with the men and they taught others the word of truth for an extended period of time. At least until people began rejecting the "Way".

"Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
And all the men were about twelve.

8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus. And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks." Acts 19:4-10

(The biblical school of Tyrannus was located in Ephesus, an ancient port city on the west coast of modern-day Turkey. It was a secular lecture hall or rented space where the Apostle Paul taught daily for two years during his third missionary journey (recorded in Acts 19:9)



As to Galatians 3:12, what Paul objected to, when taken in context, was the idea that the OT circumcision was still required of NT believers.

1 Corinthians 12:13 does not alter, but actually confirms what's recorded in all NT conversion accounts. God, who is the Holy Spirit (John 4:24) brings about what He promises:

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." Acts 2:38-42

Col 2:12
"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God,"

 

[Watchman22]

All to Jesus I surrender,
All to Him I freely give;
I will ever love and trust Him,
In His presence daily live.

Refrain:
I surrender all, I surrender all;
All to Thee, my blessed Savior,
I surrender all.

2 All to Jesus I surrender,
Make me, Savior, wholly Thine;
Let me feel Thy Holy Spirit,
Truly know that Thou art mine. [Refrain]

3 All to Jesus I surrender,
Lord, I give myself to Thee;
Fill me with Thy love and power,
Let Thy blessing fall on me. [Refrain]

It would be safe to say 99.9% of the people who take that first step of faith fail the testing that follows.

When we take that first step of faith, God will then put circumstances in that surrendered life that by our own choices on how to deal with them will tell Him if your surrendered life is genuine or not.

Thats the second half of the definition of pisteuo in the Vines Greek dictionary. "A personal surrender to Him, AND A LIFE INSPIRED BY SUCH SURRENDER. "

All those dozens of daily decisions we make will determine whether we move forward in faith or go back to the beginning.

That surrendered life will now become the filter in which we show Him we really do consider our lives to be His now, not ours.

Not perfectly, genuinely.

 

[Wansvic]

Got it. So after all the proof-texting, your best response is still “just read Acts with the epistles bro” while completely ignoring the actual question.

Let me make it simple, since we’re going in circles:

Show me one single passage in the epistles that teaches a born-again believer can belong to Christ and still be without the Holy Spirit until some later experience of laying on of hands and tongues.

You can’t. Because it doesn’t exist.

Romans 8:9 isn’t a suggestion it’s a diagnostic: “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.” The Acts 19 guys weren’t “Christians missing the second blessing.” They were John the Baptist fans who hadn’t heard the gospel yet. Once they believed in Jesus, they received the Spirit. Transitional event, not the Christian norm.

You’re doing the classic Pentecostal move: build an entire doctrine on three unusual narrative snapshots in Acts while the epistles (which actually teach church doctrine) say the exact opposite.

At this point it’s not exegesis anymore — it’s eisegesis with extra steps. I’ll stick with Paul’s clear teaching over your creative harmonization.

Conversation over.

Scripture does state that truth is established by at least 2-3 witnesses. And the conversion accounts in Acts do meet that requirement.

And I agree that receiving the Holy Ghost is required in order to be an authentic born again believer. And, I believe Paul's question reveals that the Holy Ghost is not received the instant a person believes in Jesus. Otherwise, why ask, Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?

Clearly, we see scripture differently, But, thank you for the discussion.

 

[p_rehbein]

So, according to everyone's responses here so far, Jesus was born without the Holy Ghost and didn't have it for most of his life?

Jesus (when here on earth) was FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN. God the Son has, from the beginning, been ONE with the Holy Spirit who is the third Person of the Holy Trinity. Just as God the Father, from the beginning, has been ONE with the Holy Spirit.

 

[p_rehbein]

Show me one single passage in the epistles that teaches a born-again believer can belong to Christ and still be without the Holy Spirit until some later experience of laying on of hands

Acts, Chapter 19

1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit at the time of ones conversion from sinner to saint is different from the time of ones sanctification by receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

The Book of Acts reveals as well when the Apostles received His indwelling presence when in the Upper Room ALL THERE received sanctification through the Holy Spirit.

Chapter 1:

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

13And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

14These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Chapter 2:

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Prior to Pentecost, there were NO human sanctified believers because the Holy Spirit had not yet been given to them by God the Father. That is why the Holy Spirit had to "sit upon" each of those there (lay hands on). Through this, all there received His indwelling presence.

Once this had been achieved, the Apostles, and all others there WERE sanctified believers and could lay hands on and pray over new believers for them to receive His indwelling presence as well, as shown by the Apostle Paul.

A believer can not achieve "spiritual" understanding of Scripture WITHOUT the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. For it is He that reveals to them the "spiritual" understanding.

As well, Paul speaks of this more than once when he tells believers they were not yet able to feast on the meat of the word, but only able to feed on milk.

1 Corinthians, Chapter 3:

1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

A new believer is surely SAVED upon repenting and receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit who applies the blood of Jesus to their hearts to wash them clean of their sins. But, until they receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, they are NOT SANCTIFIED!

 

[JohnDB]

This question has plagued people for centuries....

But the issue is not timing....
"When" question is a incongruous question.....just like blue is not a flavor....its a color.
Its complicated just like Shröedinger's cat is complicated....
A 4th dimensional reality permanently connected to a 3rd dimentional person....


It's a superposition reality.

 

[GWH]

It would be safe to say 99.9% of the people who take that first step of faith fail the testing that follows.

When we take that first step of faith, God will then put circumstances in that surrendered life that by our own choices on how to deal with them will tell Him if your surrendered life is genuine or not.

Thats the second half of the definition of pisteuo in the Vines Greek dictionary. "A personal surrender to Him, AND A LIFE INSPIRED BY SUCH SURRENDER. "

All those dozens of daily decisions we make will determine whether we move forward in faith or go back to the beginning.

That surrendered life will now become the filter in which we show Him we really do consider our lives to be His now, not ours.

Not perfectly, genuinely.

Okay, but just remember to always begin by judging yourself (2Cor. 13:5).

 

[Wansvic]

Jesus (when here on earth) was FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN. God the Son has, from the beginning, been ONE with the Holy Spirit who is the third Person of the Holy Trinity. Just as God the Father, from the beginning, has been ONE with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is not 1 of 3. "For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Col. 2:9

 

[Wansvic]

So, according to everyone's responses here so far, Jesus was born without the Holy Ghost and didn't have it for most of his life?

"For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Col. 2:9

 

[GWH]

"For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Col. 2:9

IOW, insofar as the invisible Spirit of God can be manifested in the human dimension or indwell a human fully,
that person is Jesus.