I believe a couple could still be married in the eyes of God even if they did not have the ability to have sex, but I do see your point and it is a good one.
Wow. Way to present a scenario that I had not considered. Nice one.
When does God say that two are married?
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Wow. Way to present a scenario that I had not considered. Nice one.
M
MidniteWelder
Guest
Its not to say that it equals a "GODLY marriage", although it still equals a marriage nonetheless
The two have still become one flesh.
The sexual union (joining, becoming one) represent much of the similarities between a (man and woman) and (Christ and church) in that it mirrors what an agape relationship is designed, dictated, outlined and set forth by our creator to be.
Paul mentioned that the two becoming one flesh is a mystery, perhaps it was a mystery to him.
Within that mystery what many could open their eyes to see is that it is the closest thing a human may experience while in the flesh here on earth what oneness with another being is like.
While it may be the closest thing, actually transcending to a point of spiritual oneness with our creator trumps any fleshly experience which can be experienced.
Some speculatively have suggested Christ had urges and temptations and along sexual lines. I would personally take the position that he did not and that a reason why Christ himself never partook, was because his spiritual oneness with the Father already far outweighed any joining he could have experienced with any human in the flesh.
And of course satan adulterates that experience as well in many ways shapes and forms leading people to believe it can be done just for fun because it may feel good.
I suppose also some people go to church because it may make them feel good.
I haven't seen in the bible whereupon it mentions becoming one in spirit with another human,
but it does tell us how two become one flesh.
Does it ever say it is only one flesh only when married? No
The reason God frowns upon fornication, adultery, homosexuality and other sexual sins I won't even mention is because they are all a mockery of what he designed as reserved only within the confines of marriage.
When a person partakes in what God has clearly stated regarding those who will not enter his kingdom they have now made themselves an idol as well as sex itself by thinking sex can be had outside the guidelines of God's righteous decree.
Some people think marriage is only upon after the issuance of a certificate.
I haven't read this guideline in the bible.
But lets use this for the sake of argument.
If two people have had sex and they don't acknowledge or consider themselves married before God(since the union is a holy thing) then they have just commited transgression against the Lord with fornication.
On the other hand if the two acknowledge and understand fully what they are doing, what the union creates and represents, does a person need a certificate?
Marriage is a one of the most important decision a person can make for their life.
There's one that is even more important though.
The decision to become a Christian and dedicate their life to Christ. And even that decision more important than marriage does not require a certificate or ceremony.
The two are similar in that what is required most, is the conscious decision to be dedicated for life.
If two people are dedicated to one another to that degree within their heart, does the issuance of a piece of paper make it any more binding to them?
As with Christ, the relationship is in the heart, not on a piece of paper.
Their is a chapter in Romans which specifically addresses sexual sin and how places such a high importance upon refraining from it. God actually has wrath against this. Here are a few verse addressing the issue.
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.
28Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done
They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers,
31they have no understanding, no fidelity (some points regarding those last two alone are implying they have no understanding of what sex is actually for and thereby make a mockery of it, they also don't understand fidelity even within the mind, and since that's where any attraction starts that is where fidelity also need be kept every bit as much as physically) the world teaches different suggesting things directly contradictory to God with little sayings such as"can look, but ya can't touch" Christ said different.
Some people flirt with others even while in a relationship. This sets up the habit of mental infidelity, a wordly cheapness to any relationship, distrust and a lack of commitment and respect.)
32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
In other words as Christians we are not suppose to sit back and enable these people people with the fluffy bunny Jesus that tickles their ears sending an "ohhh its ok, dont worry about it, you can't help it" type of message.
Our stance should be the very same as Gods, that is if a persons views and morals are aligned with, stem from and are one with Gods. Not condemn them, but not tolerate or approve of their actions and behavior neither.
As God our father would not reward such behavior, how are we as his voice to take any different stance?
Some people take the attitude to not speak of such things, thinking the problems will go away if not addressed.
But things don't fix themselves without Gods hand, God says what is done in the dark will be brought to the light.
When the things repressed are brought into his light is only when they can be properly addressed, corrected and a person healed of improper teaching of prince of the world.
Would one suggest that sex can be had without the two becoming one flesh?
Any scripture could never back this theory.
If this were so, that would mean God and his outlines concerning the sexual union would be faulty.
So who is faulty in their reasoning? it is either us anytime we seek to please ourselves
Or God faulty for making his guidelines for us to "Follow"
There is no independence within a relationship of two
It is serving two masters, trying to please the self conflicting with trying to please the one in authority
Similarly there is no independence within a relationship with Christ.
Everything is done for the Lord, not the self.
Trying to please the self will cause conflict with trying to please the one who must be followed and has been placed in authority.
Some take a bad attitude toward this finding it difficult to be crucified to the flesh for God.
They develop a sort of bitterness or spite toward anyone setting guidelines or principles for them to follow.
Again in Romans 1 such a person would be classified as a God-hater, since anyone who is friends with the world has made themselves an enemy of God. This isn't what we want for ourselves as a follower.
The attitude to take should be to gladly follow the Lord as opposed to spitefully.
Its like the story about little Jonny, disrupting class and the teacher asking him to sit down.
But little Jonny wants to prove some sort of point that he can make his own rules and guidelines and display his independence and nobody is the boss of him.
So the teacher finally comes over to make him sit down and he promptly sits right before the teacher has to discipline him.
A fellow student whispers, I'm surprised you sat down.
While little Jonnny quips back, yeah well I may have been sitting on the outside, but I was still standing on the inside.
This would be a display of being lukewarm when Christ says he wishes we were one way or the other so he knows how to be able to use us.
God see's our heart, He knows when we're following willingly because we want to or whether simply because we have to.
Phillipians 2:14 gives us the advice for the proper attitude to have toward authority and being a Christian believer following Christ obeying him and his commands.
Do everything without grumbling or arguing
Another good example of grumbling even while following is the Israelites following Moses in Egypt (Exodus)
There is a reason the bible tells us that sexual sin is the one sin a person commits against themselves.
What does this mean?
It means it damages the self, causes self seeking desires which drive a wedge between the person who is attempting to please the Lord they claim to follow yet at the same time wondering why they can't have their cake and eat it too.
While God did say it is not good for a man to be alone, he outlined how the relationship must be in order to have that privilege blessed by him.
A self-seeking person will often try to justify their actions when faced against the truth of biblical scripture which is a move of "pride" as opposed to humbly fessing up to their own faults to be corrected and repaired of them.
Yet people too often to their own detriment are reluctant to completely relinquish their thought processes of how they were raised, what their friends say, and what others may think of them in favor of the Lord renewing the mind when being born again. Renewing of the mind is starting all over, being taught from scratch as if a baby again. Hence the term born again to a new Father as opposed to our worldly father who mixed the truth with a lie in the form of deception.
Adam and Eve in the garden is the first example of this, satan didn't exactly lie, he caused Eve to second guess not only herself but also what Adam as her leader had told her. This is an action of independence, rebellion and pride, not submission.
God still loved them sure, but the act didn't go unpunished for them thinking they could make their own decisions.
One very important message within that is there is no individual aside from God. Were not put on this earth for the self.
The bible tells us pride comes before destruction
It is then an individual starts to become the vessel of their own destruction for not heeding the Lords discipline when they need to be the vessel of the holy spirit where no discipline would be necessary.
One cannot both claim the rights reserved ONLY for marriage and not consider themselves married
One cannot eat and wipe their mouth and then say they've done nothing wrong
The same as a person cannot claim the rights to heaven and being ONE WITH God in spirit and in truth without knowing and following Christ. He said, "I will tell them plainly, I never knew you"
The hope that one has is dying to the self, becoming a slave, a bondservant if you will (since that is a slave for life) to Christ. Once that decision is made one is no longer a slave to the flesh.
Romans 6:19
I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.
Marriage is a picture of Christ and the Church - Ephesians, It is sacred and a covenant. Oneness - Finances, plans, life, eternal destination all going in the same direction. One man, one woman joined together by God. I don't think you can read anything into it other than that. Suppose only if you chose to start out with an idea like the title of this post... and if you had in your heart, I really want to have sex with my girlfriend before marriage.
J
Jullianna
Guest
You made me read too much, MidniteWelder. As I said, I don't disagree with your or Markum's basic premise at all. I think a lot of people, even Christians, do minimize what happens when they sexually join with another person. It is definitely something that Christian singles should be keep in the forefront of their decision making processes in that regard.
I gave a lot of thought to your post as I was reading it and in doing so am even more convinced that there is so much more to it. When I think about marriage and my relationship with Christ, I realize that I am a part of Him. He lives IN me. We are one. Our hearts/spirits are joined together for all eternity. He knows my innermost thoughts, dreams, concerns, failures, and loves me anyway. I don't have to worry that one day I will wake up and He won't be there. Every step I take He is right there, not just beside me, but BEFORE me...leading me.
As I said, I don't disagree with your or Markum's basic premise at all. I think a lot of people, even Christians, do minimize what happens when they sexually join with another person. It is definitely something that Christian singles should be keep in the forefront of their decision making processes in that regard.I gave a lot of thought to your post as I was reading it and in doing so am even more convinced that there is so much more to it. When I think about marriage and my relationship with Christ, I realize that I am a part of Him. He lives IN me. We are one. Our hearts/spirits are joined together for all eternity. He knows my innermost thoughts, dreams, concerns, failures, and loves me anyway. I don't have to worry that one day I will wake up and He won't be there. Every step I take He is right there, not just beside me, but BEFORE me...leading me.
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That is just it though. Based on what we are seeing in scripture, that logic fails. You cannot just have sex with your girlfriend before marriage.
Exodus 22
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
You do not do such a thing unless you intend to remain with the person that you have clinged to and became one flesh with.
The activity above was never defined as fornication in scripture, yet our society teaches that it is. The man and woman in the above description were not married according to the laws of men, but in the eyes of God they were.
This is the problem. Today many say... "Oh, it's OK, it's not like we were married." Yes, it is EXACTLY like that.
What I am trying to show here is that by understanding this, one would exercise more self-control.
If two people that want to be married "lie together" and forsake all others and remain together, then there is found no sin in them. I would recommend that they go and get the certificate to abide within the laws of the land. But, if two "lie" together and then forsake one another to lie with someone else, it is fornication. Fornication is separating from that which God has put together... two clinging together as one flesh as God created it to be. It is that simple.
In the new testament, it is written that if a man act unseemly towards his virgin, to take her to be his wife. Again it does not say that he has committed fornication and it seems clear that he will not commit such as long as he forsakes all others and remains with her.
U
Ugly
Guest
My answer to the question is just that we are told to follow the laws of the land. What the government recognizes as marriage, so do i. Doesn't mean its a good marriage, or even a right marriage, but it makes it nice and simple for me. Otherwise, as is being shown, it becomes a debate. You guys keep debating. I have my simple answer.
Huh? Who is debating? I think you may have misread something or misunderstood someone.
It is not against the law to have sex before getting a marriage certificate. Neither fornication nor adultery are against the law. Are these things then OK because they are within the laws of the land?
I would like to clarify that this thread was not created to offend anyone or to cause debate.
The intention was to open up the opportunity to search the scriptures together to seek the deep things of God, that we may be transformed by the renewing of our minds and not conformed to this world.
There are many things that we have been taught by the world that are not the perfect will of God. I can personally see the error of my ways in this specific topic. Had I understood that I was joining myself to someone and becoming one with them for life, I would have made different decisions in my past.
To me, if I failed to abide by the world system, I had failed altogether. If I had "sex before marriage", I was being told that I was disgracing the person that I was with and it was as bad as if I had cheated on them.
The world teaches that you should not have sex before a marriage certificate. Scripture says that if two do this thing, let them be married. Not tell them that they are two young, need to finish college first, need to wait a year to secure a venue, etc... The world system only promotes fornication.
If I would have been taught what scripture says instead, it would have saved me a lot of pain and grief before.
The intention was to open up the opportunity to search the scriptures together to seek the deep things of God, that we may be transformed by the renewing of our minds and not conformed to this world.
There are many things that we have been taught by the world that are not the perfect will of God. I can personally see the error of my ways in this specific topic. Had I understood that I was joining myself to someone and becoming one with them for life, I would have made different decisions in my past.
To me, if I failed to abide by the world system, I had failed altogether. If I had "sex before marriage", I was being told that I was disgracing the person that I was with and it was as bad as if I had cheated on them.
The world teaches that you should not have sex before a marriage certificate. Scripture says that if two do this thing, let them be married. Not tell them that they are two young, need to finish college first, need to wait a year to secure a venue, etc... The world system only promotes fornication.
If I would have been taught what scripture says instead, it would have saved me a lot of pain and grief before.
J
Jullianna
Guest
I think that one of the reasons we have one of the huge legal divisions in this country right now regarding marriage is due to the fact that mankind has convinced itself that it has the right (or its courts have the right) to decide what man can or cannot do with something that was created by and belongs to God = the joining of husband and wife. God told us in the beginning how it was supposed to be. Jesus said that Moses made allowances that were never intended to be so from the beginning (Matthew 19), and mankind has continued to do the same since. For me and my house, I will believe God and what HE says about it. As Romans 3:4 says, "Let God be true, and every human being a liar."
For the record I have not been offended at all by anything said in this thread. I think it has been a very informative and respectful dialogue. I would like to thank everyone for their input, particularly Markum and Midnite. Very well and maturely done.
For the record I have not been offended at all by anything said in this thread. I think it has been a very informative and respectful dialogue. I would like to thank everyone for their input, particularly Markum and Midnite.
Very well and maturely done.
I think that one of the reasons we have one of the huge legal divisions in this country right now regarding marriage is due to the fact that mankind has convinced itself that it has the right (or its courts have the right) to decide what man can or cannot do with something that was created by and belongs to God = the joining of husband and wife. God told us in the beginning how it was supposed to be. Jesus said that Moses made allowances that were never intended to be so from the beginning (Matthew 19), and mankind has continued to do the same since. For me and my house, I will believe God and what HE says about it. As Romans 3:4 says, "Let God be true, and every human being a liar."
For the record I have not been offended at all by anything said in this thread. I think it has been a very informative and respectful dialogue. I would like to thank everyone for their input, particularly Markum and Midnite.
I am in FULL agreement with what you have said.
I also must say that this has been very informative to me. There has been a lot of things presented here that I haven't considered and I am learning a lot.
When I first posted this thread, it was a completely unanswered question for me. It is something that has been on my mind and heart for quite some time now. As I began digging through the scriptures and seeing others do the same and seeing the posts, the truth has become clearer and clearer.
Thanks to everyone that has joined me in this search. Especially Jullianna and Midnite (the book that he donated is very informative... ;-P ) Most of all, thanks be to our God who reveals all secrets. All of the honor, glory, and praise is to Him.
M
MidniteWelder
Guest
I see no debate as well since a debate would involve a discussion of opposing views. Just people sharing enlightening viewpoints. I just hope some haven't traded their heroes for ghosts or scripture for Lynyrd Skynyrd to be their guiding light.
I'm in agreement with a lot of what you've offered here as well Markum, namely about people can't just go around having sex with their girlfriend/boyfriend with the covenant of marriage removed. I believe many of us have come to this realization through the so called school off hard knocks. It is said experience is the teacher of fools. Reflection is though a more noble and far less damaging path to wisdom and knowledge. Experience may lead one onto this path yet reflecting before mistakes are made is like an ounce of prevention which saves the pound of cure.
The sad part is much of the knowledge many of us have learned in our older years of experience isn't being handed down to the younger generation. Same as many of us may have made mistakes in this area simply for not being taught correctly or for not heeding the Lord's word.
It's important to relay this type of information to others especially the youth. I have some neighbors here who are a group of guys in their 20's. I hang out with them from time to time and look for opportunities to share. The Lord has provided these opportunities and on one occasion the discussion opened up while one of the young men was having problems regarding his girlfriend. (Upset because she was seeing another guy and having sex after they had already done so) Opening their eyes to allow them to see how the world, media, advertising, music etc try to get people to lend themselves to promiscuous sex damaging relationships. A couple of the guys starting putting everything together in steps one by one as we spoke, and one of them I could see his frustration and anger toward satan for the deception of the world we live in.
It reminded me of when I was younger and roommates with a good friend who would often come home with a different girl every week and thought weird of me not understanding why I didn't partake in the same activities (as misery loves company... so does sin). Until finally we had a "guy talk" and he asked if I was gay or something. I assured him I wasn't (laughingly since being like a brother he should know me better) as I went on to point out how I noticed he couldn't stand to be alone and would try to fill this void with whomever was available to accompany him for the time, but then asked him if it was fulfilling not having a lasting more solid relationship founded upon biblical principles.
He admitted the observation I had made in his regard was truth and how he admired couples who for instance had been married for 30 or more years then understood why I chose to refrain from the same activities he engaged in since it is uncommon for a man to stay at home while the other guys go out looking for women.
Since one day all will be judged by God, then man gives a good heaping helping of practice for not only defending God's laws and principles written upon the heart, but from the accuser himself.
If we're to be judged by Gods word, that is the word we must be familiar with.
Didn't mean to make you read too much here Jullianna, I tend to be thorough with pertinent info when discussing and presenting facts relevant to a topic which may help benefit others who read as well. You may take a break and uncross your eyes now to relieve that twitch.
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I didn't have much more to add to this thread, but I was amazed by how this discussion progressed. I have great respect for all three of you.I think that one of the reasons we have one of the huge legal divisions in this country right now regarding marriage is due to the fact that mankind has convinced itself that it has the right (or its courts have the right) to decide what man can or cannot do with something that was created by and belongs to God = the joining of husband and wife. God told us in the beginning how it was supposed to be. Jesus said that Moses made allowances that were never intended to be so from the beginning (Matthew 19), and mankind has continued to do the same since. For me and my house, I will believe God and what HE says about it. As Romans 3:4 says, "Let God be true, and every human being a liar."
For the record I have not been offended at all by anything said in this thread. I think it has been a very informative and respectful dialogue. I would like to thank everyone for their input, particularly Markum and Midnite.
I have to agree with Catherder. Seems like you can have multiple husbands; you're just not supposed to (unless all of your previous husbands are dead). Because presumably that's adultery.
G
GRA
Guest
U
Ugly
Guest
There are very few original thread ideas. And you aren't the first to post this question. Typically, in the past, it has been a debate. And last time i was in this thread a debate seemed to be brewing.
Really? Are you serious? You ask a question, i give an answer to your question, now you twist my answer to say things that have nothing at all to do with what i said?
If you're going to make such a ridiculous accusation against me, show me where in my post i said anything about laws and sex. Quote me exactly where i said that. Or where i said anything about sex at all, for that matter. I'm waiting....
You asked, when does God say two people are married. And i gave my opinion. The bible says to follow the laws of the land, so when the gov't recognizes my marriage, then, for me, God does as well. Where did i say anything about sex in that explanation? I didn't say, or even hint about anything involving sex. I just gave a direct answer to your question. You're adding words and ideas to my post that are no where implied, or mentioned. I think You are the one misreading or misunderstanding.
Whoa there, Ugly. I was not implying that you made any statements like that. I am only making a statement that shows that God's laws supersede and are above man's laws. I am pretty sure you and I are in agreement on this.
I abide within the laws of man as well. However, if there was such a law that said to bow down to another god, I would not. There is less conflict with U.S. laws and God's will than there are in other nations. That is something to be thankful for.
So then, I say that according to what is righteous through God and provable by scripture, when two become one flesh they have began that union and should get whatever it is that is appropriate to their nation's laws.
SOME OTHER INTERESTING FACTS:
A marriage license by legal definition is not an officiator of a marriage. It is authorization/permission to get married by either church or state authority. It may also be used as a record of the marriage. This is why pardons are given in some places for common-law or cohabitation. The pardon excuses the married couple for not getting permission from the church or state to get married and recognizes their marriage without a license or certificate (which is sometimes then established).
There are some jurisdiction in the United States that still do not require a marriage license.
Marriage licenses were not established until after 500 a.d. and were originally created to give people the right to marry in cases that would otherwise be illegal.
The UDHR (Universal Declaration of Human Rights) adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in 1948 states:
"Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses."
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P
Powemm
Guest
Mark 10: Jesus replied. 6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ 7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,8 and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
Okay I'm answering before going back and looking at all the awesome answers ..
It is as "God inspires" ..above all , love.. When two or three come into agreement "I am in the midst of you"
I believe it is the image of Christ so loved the church " reflected " to one another that unites them as one in Him..
Okay I'm answering before going back and looking at all the awesome answers ..
It is as "God inspires" ..above all , love.. When two or three come into agreement "I am in the midst of you"
I believe it is the image of Christ so loved the church " reflected " to one another that unites them as one in Him..
U
Ugly
Guest
Regardless of whatever old marriage facts you have i stick by my answer.
I didn't say anything about following the laws in other areas, only in regards to the question you asked.
You did more than imply. You tried correcting me on things that were no where in my post. Why did you bring up sex at all? I said nothing about sex, you brought that up in regards to my post. Thats pretty direct, not an implication.
Seems as though you're still adding to my thoughts. i think i'm done here. I won't be back in this thread. Don't really care for it when people twist my posts.
Agreed. I heard a pastor once say that a marriage between a man and woman should be manifestation of their diligence in seeking the Lord. I would say that would be the ideal way for any two to meet and be drawn to one another.
As Jullianna stated, there is much more to a marriage than sex. I think it would be very difficult to completely expound on that. But if I had to sum it all up in short, I would say that a marriage IS the manifestation of two people's relationship with God. If two are seeking His righteousness first, then their marriage will show the love that Christ has for the church.