WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

[DeighAnn]

Hello DeighAnn,

The above is in error, as that would be pretty easy to prove since the police and other agencies have had bodies successfully exhumed even after years of being burried. As far as the event of the rich man and Lazarus, the scripture states that both men physically died and their bodies buried. After that, both of their spirits are found in Hades, conscious and aware, while their bodies were still up on the earth decaying. At the time of the resurrection, the bodies of the dead will be reanimated and their spirits will be reunited with them, immortal and glorified. To make my point clearer, if a believe was to die the day before the resurrection, his body would no longer bein the morgue and that because he would be back in it.

After Jesus resurrected, all of the spirits of the OT saints that were on the comfort side of Hades were taken to heaven, where they wait for the resurrection of their immortal and glorified bodies. The unfaithful who have been and continue to pour into Hades, will remain there in torment in flame until the great white throne judgment where they will also receive resurrected bodies fit for their punishment in the lake o fire.

When Jesus descends AT THE TRUMP of God, the 7th trump ...[/quote]

As I explained in a previous post, the "trumpet of God" and the 7th trumpet have nothing at all to do with each other!

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are how God is going to carry out His wrath. Therefore, the church cannot be on the earth during that time because it would put the living church through 2/3's of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer and that because Jesus already did.

The seven trumpets are judgements of wrath and not a blessed event. In addition, there is nothing whatsoever in the context that would elude to the resurrection and catching away of the church taking place at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

It is because people have been listening to the false teachings of men who have pigeonholed the word trumpet, making the two trumpets synonymous. The church will be long gone prior to the sounding of the seventh trumpet. In fact, the church will be gathered prior to the opening of the first seal, which initiates God's wrath. [/QUOTE]


Where to start? Bodies. Sorry, I thought everyone knew we had 2 bodies and would know I was speaking of the Spiritual one.

2Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


1Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (dead as in spiritually dead, and the spiritually dead dropping dead and being raised
1Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[DeighAnn]

After Jesus resurrected, all of the spirits of the OT saints that were on the comfort side of Hades were taken to heaven, where they wait for the resurrection of their immortal and glorified bodies. The unfaithful who have been and continue to pour into Hades, will remain there in torment in flame until the great white throne judgment where they will also receive resurrected bodies fit for their punishment in the lake o fire

I really need the scripture you are using to get to this, if you would please.

 

[calibob]

John's reference to "a woman sitting on a scarlet beast" is referring to that last day false church system which will be afforded by the emergence of the antichrist.

The reference to the woman being that great city that rules over the kings of the earth and the fact that this city sits on seven hills, are both pointing to Rome and the headquarters of her religious system, the Vatican. This being true, I believe that the Roman Catholicism will absorb all of the false Christian splinter sects forming the last day one-world religious system. That said, I also believe that the second beast, the false prophet, will be one of the future popes, as the head of that one world false religious system. The woman will be using the beast to gain authority over all people. And that by force if need be.

I believe that it was before 1798 that the church in Rome wielded her power over kings and their armies and that for fear of being excommunicated. Complete control over all people is still the goal and desire for the false church in Rome and the emergence of the antichrist is going to give them the power to do so, ergo, the woman who rides the beast. She's going to be in cahoots with the antichrist in order to get that power back.

The church in Rome was responsible for all of the bloodshed in all three inquisitions and will be responsible for the blood shed during the tribulation period. The church of Rome had spies who would identify people as heretics who would be arrested, all of their property confiscated, imprisoned, tortured and many burned alive. That said, it is the goal and desire of the church in Rome to recapture that authority, so that all people belong to Roman Catholicism and are under the authority of the office of the pope.

What better person to play the part of the false prophet, than the leader of the one-world religious system. After all, whatever the pope says the devote will do. That said, it is the false prophet who causes the inhabitants of the earth to make that image in honor of the beast. He's also the one who causes all both great and small, rich and poor, free and slave to receive the mark of the beast. And whoever does not receive it will not be able to buy or sell.

Thought the great tribulation was only supposed t0 last 7 calendar years start to finish. 1798+7=1805? The Lord didn't destroy every nation and all the rulers on the planet in 1805.

 

[DeighAnn]

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are how God is going to carry out His wrath. Therefore, the church cannot be on the earth during that time because it would put the living church through 2/3's of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer and that because Jesus already did.

The seven trumpets are judgements of wrath and not a blessed event. In addition, there is nothing whatsoever in the context that would elude to the resurrection and catching away of the church taking place at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

I do agree, the seals are in a different order. They are in the order of importance of the information to know and to seal in our brains. But the trump is the sound of the action of the vial about to take place. Satans number is 666 the 6th seal, the 6th trump, and the 6th vial. Jesus returns at 777. God is like that. If you ever check out bibilical numbers it would help you discern between what applies to Satan and what applies to God. Not to much different than light and dark once you know them. And as this thread is about rapture, So I am not going to go into the seals trumps and vials.

The church and every single soul who has not died, will be here for the Tribulation. Most will be deceived. Few will not. At the end of the Tribulation, when the two witnesses rise, Jesus returns and THERE WILL NEVER BE A SOUL IN A FLESH BODY EVER AGAIN. You do know God repented of putting us in the flesh, don't you? ALL WILL BE CHANGED. NO MORE FLESH. All will be in incorruptible bodies for the Lords Day. And here is how you know that is TRUTH. Because when it comes to eternity, Gods judgment will be just. There will not be a physical, or mental or emotional CRUTCH to lean on. There will be no excuses. 1000 yrs with people getting sick, and old in these corrupt bodies, there would hardly be anyone left standing with all their parts intact. AND what if you were already 103 by the time Jesus arrives? 1000 yrs was the max of even the pristine 1st generations. They would have to keel over early, and that cant happen. But if you read Corinth 15, you already know all this by now.

So we will all be in our spiritual bodies, some immortal, some still mortal. Gods Wrath will fall on exactly where He wants, and not a spot He doesn't. So gird up your loins and Have faith.


If you believe in a pre trib rap, pray on this

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[calibob]

Be that confusing enough. The Pundit's who speak against Globalism also support it by relying on the Word Monetary Fund , Laundering Drug, terrorist and Russian Kleptocratic money as well as foreign made goods and Oil. I'll just continue speaking against them and for Salvation and helping our own needy first.

When I worked for Melodyland and by default Trinity Broadcasting Network. I heard conflicting end times theology almost daily. And people debating and quarreling daily, for years. I stopped listening. All that I'm fairly positive about on the subject about the rapture is it won't happen before the first trumpet or after the war of Armageddon.

 

[DeighAnn]

All those who have been born from above, born of the Spirit, born of God, or born again are children of God. That is all you need to focus on. And those are the saints of God. The Resurrection/Rapture is only for the saints, therefore the world is excluded from this stupendous event.

From the 1st to the 21st century, those who have passed on and are now in Heaven will be present at the Resurrection, and receive immortal glorified bodies. See 1 Cor 15.

The second I ever tell my Father "that that is all I need to focus on" I hope He strikes me dead on the spot. The Word of God is ever growing and I am still just barely scratching the surface of the wisdom and knowledge to be found in there.

Why would God say "Woe to those who are with child and give suck"? It isn't to those who never believed, they are free to hook up with whomever they want. They haven't accepted Christ. NO that is to those who are supposed to be remaining a virgin until Christ arrives, they are not go off and follow the first supernatural being who comes claiming to be Christ. He told us all the things that are going to happen.

He will not come back to gather us until after the son of perdition is standing where he ought not. It is simple in EVERY LANGUAGE. Add to or take away, I can't stop you, but I am going to put out the truth.

 

[DeighAnn]

post #86, reads a lot harsher than it typed, so please :read it gentle.

All those who have been born from above, born of the Spirit, born of God, or born again are children of God. That is all you need to focus on. And those are the saints of God. The Resurrection/Rapture is only for the saints, therefore the world is excluded from this stupendous event.

From the 1st to the 21st century, those who have passed on and are now in Heaven will be present at the Resurrection, and receive immortal glorified bodies. See 1 Cor 15.

 

[Gentle-Warrior]

1 thes 4 and the first part of mat 25, plus the "one taken" of mat 24.
Some are waiting for the white horseman or the ac.

Read the last verses of the bible.
Jesus leaves us with the thought/prayer of the gathering /rapture.
(Come lord jesus)
But you can go to rev 14 and see "a rapture/gathering."
2 witnesses are caught up (raptured)
Elijah and Jesus were caught up (raptured)
Surprised you don't know what it is.

You waiting for Jesus to come?
Can you pray the last verses of the bible?

The "Rapture" is not a biblical word. What exactly do you mean by the Rapture?

 

[Guojing]

I can easily defend the pretrib rapture and don't have to incorporate all the paranoia as you choose to do.
Post a post trib verse if you can find one.
I have the weight of the bible on my side

I find it truly amazing that, you opposed me so aggressively when I was preaching that Paul had way more revelations than the other 12 about the gospel of grace, yet you somehow embrace the pre-trib rapture, which was one of those revelation that only the ascended Christ revealed to him.

You are probably the first non dispensationalist I have encountered that believe in the pre-trib rapture.

 

[Nehemiah6]

He will not come back to gather us until after the son of perdition is standing where he ought not. It is simple in EVERY LANGUAGE. Add to or take away, I can't stop you, but I am going to put out the truth.

That is definitely NOT the truth. And you have absolutely no Scripture to back that up.

 

[DeighAnn]

That is definitely NOT the truth. And you have absolutely no Scripture to back that up.

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

 

[DeighAnn]

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

 

[DeighAnn]

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Isaiah 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

 

[DeighAnn]

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Isaiah 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

As it reads in the Greek
And I looked and behold a horse white, and the [one] sitting on it having a bow and was given to him a crown and he went forth overcoming and that he might conquer.

5115 toxon
a bow
from the base tikto a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric)

So the first seal is a rider on a white horse with a cheap fabric bow going forth conquering, and to conquer. WHO is going to be doing that?
Not the Lord, He is returning as king of Kings and Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bow.

 

[DeighAnn]

That is definitely NOT the truth. And you have absolutely no Scripture to back that up.

2Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[GaryA]

Those who accept that tend to be dispensationalist in their thinking, and we know that is not very popular around this board.

You are joking - right?

What am I missing?

It seems to me that the majority (by far) of the membership of this board tend to be dispensationalist in their thinking.

Perhaps those who are not dispensationalist in their thinking are not being "vocal" enough?

 

[Guojing]

You are joking - right?

What am I missing?

It seems to me that the majority (by far) of the membership of this board tend to be dispensationalist in their thinking.

Perhaps those who are not dispensationalist in their thinking are not being "vocal" enough?

I guess different people have different definitions of the term "dispensationalist" then.

I am curious though, how would you define one to be?

 

[GaryA]

REV 14 is a game changer.

Hidden

game changer

Revelation 14 shows Jesus gathering all of the saints from the earth - and directly following that - the Wrath of God. (all who were left after the first-and-previous 'reaping')

 

[GaryA]

You are probably the first non dispensationalist I have encountered that believe in the pre-trib rapture.

Is that really possible???






Just kidding!

 

[DeighAnn]

For those who believe Jesus has 3 advents not 2, could you please give me either 1 verse in which Jesus speaks of returning 2 more times or 1 verse where one return is compared to the other, or 1 verse where one speaks of relation to the other.


Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
He didn't create the earth without form and void
Isaiah 45:19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

I can find where The Bible tells us,

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, (Advent 1) and the day of vengeance of our God (Advent 2) to comfort all that mourn;
This seems to be a perfect place where it would have either been written, or Jesus, when reading this and stopping 1/2 through because the day of vengeance was still yet future, could have added in the "rapture" as yet another advent.
Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
Isaiah 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
Isaiah 61:5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
Isaiah 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

Luke 8:16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad

Mark 4:22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.
Mark 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you and unto you that hear shall more be given.


Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
(Another great place to have said something like "and I will come get the church first", if that indeed is what was to come)
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up (The end of Advent 1), behold, two men stood by them in white apparel
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Advent 2)
(Yet, here they have Him coming back with no mention of any "come take some to heaven" before the trib")

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Church still here
Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Church still here
Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars see that ye be not troubled for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Church still here
Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Church still here
Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Church still here
Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Church still here
Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Church still here
Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Church still here
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Church still here
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Church still here