WHERE ARE WE TODAY IN THE BIRTH PAINS???

[eternally-gratefull]

it all hinges on the meaning "fulness of the gentiles"
never changes.

Yes, and it also hinges on who "isreal" is..

and I showed you 15 points which show who she is

 

[Angela53510]

Wow! Long hard thread! Some good points and verses, some good Scriptures and testimonies

I was a closet Amil, under the threat of heresy in the Pentecostal Church I attended for many years. God pulled me out of there and into Seminary, where I had a great theology prof who showed us all the alternatives, the verses, books and then said "Work it out by reading the Bible".

It was so nice that I could finally announce to the world that Jesus came once as a baby, died for my sins, was resurrected, and will be coming again. NOT after a rapture (Latin Vulgate error) or a pre-trib eschatology. Studied the Bible in Greek as part of my degree, past tense is NOT exactly what happens in many of the verses.

It is the aorist tense, which means that that all it tells you is that an event occurred, nothing more about the "aspect" of the verb. Aspect is the most difficult of Greek terms to grasp, but basically it tells us not WHEN the action occurred, but rather, what type of action it describes. There is a continuous aspect (I am writing) and an undefined aspect, meaning the verb is thought of as a simple event.

So walk warily when dealing with Greek verb tenses!

As far as Dispensationalism, I am glad that Pilgrim brought up Hal Lindsay. Tim La Haye is another one who was huge on predicting the end of the world, using Daniel and Revelation and any other scripture they pulled out of context. You don't hear from them too much these days. Probably because their false prophecies meant if it was Old Testament days, they should have been stoned to death. Not that we do that these days!

We should all be careful not to misinterpret the Bible to fit our own pre-conceptions!

As for the birth pangs, I think we should be extremely cautious at any time. People who study eschatology to the exclusion of the words of Christ, the Old Testament and the call to "be transformed", which is about character and becoming more like Christ. The purpose of that is to be in God's will.

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Romans 12:2

But it is strange that people keep constantly talking about the end coming. I'm for Reformed eschatology (not Reformed but Baptist) which states the world WILL be renewed, but that Christ is doing it when he returns, without any middle events like raptures or tribulations. Even the word Millennium only appears in Revelation 20. Not a good thing to make a whole doctrine out of one chapter of the Bible.

Try reading "Case for Amillennialism" by Kim Riddlebarger. I love her point:

"For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." Matt. 24:27.

No wait!! That is the Bible.

And till that glorious day - "occupy till I come" Luke 19:13 Admittedly a KJV parable, but Jesus talked a lot about our job in this world, and that is to win the lost to Christ.

I do have to wonder if a pagan, or Muslim or atheist came to this site and read this thread, would they get excited about Jesus and want to know him as Lord and Saviour??

 

[Abiding]

Kim is a Him

 

[nonicknametouse]

2 Timothy 3:1thru9 So you think after reading this that the end times are happening as we speak. And the sad part is that it is going to get worse.

 

[Pilgrimer]

lol. Paul had proof Jesus was Christ the son of the living God long before 70 Ad. this is a stretch. If this is true, no one would have been saved before 70 ad. because there was not enough proof.

Proof is not necessary for salvation, else there would be no need for faith.

Proof is necessary for judgment, it leaves men without excuse. Since Jesus has bound Satan the nations can no longer claim they have been deceived, indeed, the Gospel has gone forth to every nation on earth bringing the light of the knowledge of God in the face of His Son. The nations have no excuse, they are no longer deceived, they are in rebellion.

This has NOTHING to do with daniel 9. Daniel 9 was not about the old covenant. it was about the city and people of Israel.

Nonsense. The end of the Old Covenant age and the destruction of the Jewish state and Mosaic economy is precisely what Daniel 9 was about.

Ad 70 was just ONE part of that prophesy. Gabriel told daniel other things would happen AFTER that event..

Not for Old Covenant Israel. The Old Covenant has been fulfilled and everything that pertained to the Old Covenant passed away during those 7 years. There is now a New Covenant which is the only means by which a man, Jew or Gentile, can be reconciled with God. You may not realize what an historic transition that was, from the Old to the New, but it was. It was the primary subject of Old Testament prophecy and it occurred during the generation of Jesus' first advent.

I could say your blocking your mind to? is this how we discuss scripture? You believe as I do or your blocking your mind??

Not at all. I don't simply toss aside whatever view you express by saying it "doesn't fit," which really just means it doesn't fit with your scenario. Instead I show you that there is in fact a more Gospel-oriented explanation.

Yes it is the point. If Gods prophesies do not come true, God is a liar. If he does not keep his promises, He is a liar.

If he is a liar. he is not God. and we are all doomed to hell

I assure you, you are the only one questioning God's faithfulness, I'm certainly not. God keeps His promises, period. The issue is, what did His promises consist of and how has/will He keep them? You insist that God must keep His promises according to the way you understand those promises, but you refuse to consider that maybe God has kept His promises, but in a way you are simly not aware of.

For example, most Jews believe God has not yet fulfilled His promise to send them a deliverer. But He has. Just not the kind of Deliverer they were expecting.

In the same way God has kept His promises that you insist he has not kept, just not the way you demand based on a particular interpretation. But as with the Jews, your interpretation is the problem, not God's faithfulness.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

He did? Who did he judge?? The gentile nations went on for hundreds of years, they are still going on. who did God judge?

Israel ... the only nation under the Old Covenant and subject to the judgment of the Law. Jesus said not one jot or tittle of the Law could pass until all the Law was fulfilled. Well, a lot of those jots and tittles of the Law were about the judgment of the nation of Israel if they failed to keep covenant with God, which they did, time and again throughout their history, as the Old Testament records. These jots and tittles of the Law had to be fulfilled as well as all the salvation promises. And once it was all fulfilled, the blessings and the curses, then it all passed away.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Katy-follower]

Its been my worst sin since i got saved.
lack of prayer.

I think most christians would agree with you on this one.

The flesh doesn't like to pray. That's why we must pray in the Spirit.

Here's a good sermon I watched on tv last week...

[video=youtube_share;_PV1mkMT3sA]http://youtu.be/_PV1mkMT3sA[/video]
​

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Proof is not necessary for salvation, else there would be no need for faith.

Proof is necessary for judgment, it leaves men without excuse. Since Jesus has bound Satan the nations can no longer claim they have been deceived, indeed, the Gospel has gone forth to every nation on earth bringing the light of the knowledge of God in the face of His Son. The nations have no excuse, they are no longer deceived, they are in rebellion.

Romans 1 says man knows they are rightly judged, they do not need proof. They hide it in their unbelief. They did not need AD 70 to prove it to them.

Satan is not bound. When satan is bound there will be no evil nations. they will not rebell against God. they will have no power. Have you not read the OT? who gives power to th enations to decieve, and over run? It is satan and his army.

Paul said our battle is not against flesh and blood but principalities and powers. And satan walks around like a lion seeking who he may devour.

If this is what th eearth looks like when satan is bound, and God is ruling himself. Heaven does not look like a very nice place.

Nonsense. The end of the Old Covenant age and the destruction of the Jewish state and Mosaic economy is precisely what Daniel 9 was about.

Oh it was? Ok so this is what daniel was praying about. I pray God does not anwer your prayers this way. Daniel was not even praying about the old covenant.

Sorry, I can not destroy context to make my belief fit scripture. Calvanists do this with romans 9. The roman church does this with MOST of their doctrinal beliefs.. If you want to be like them, feel free. But as for me. I will use proper hermeneutics and force context of scripture to form my belief, not the other way around!

Not for Old Covenant Israel. The Old Covenant has been fulfilled and everything that pertained to the Old Covenant passed away during those 7 years. There is now a New Covenant which is the only means by which a man, Jew or Gentile, can be reconciled with God. You may not realize what an historic transition that was, from the Old to the New, but it was. It was the primary subject of Old Testament prophecy and it occurred during the generation of Jesus' first advent.

Your talking of the mosaic covenant. Yes that is done away, but the abrahamic still stands. isreal was chosen based on the abrahamic.. not the mosaic. You have your covenants confused.

The mosaic was taken away and fulfilled when jesus said it was finished. It was fulfilled. his purpose for comming was complete. the old had passed away, behold all things are new.

Yet daniel was told of many thing which would happen after this event.

Again, Context my friend. If it was finished on the cross. there would be no need to speak of ANYTHING past those events.. Yet Gabriel told him of many events after the cutting off of messiah.

Not at all. I don't simply toss aside whatever view you express by saying it "doesn't fit," which really just means it doesn't fit with your scenario. Instead I show you that there is in fact a more Gospel-oriented explanation.

yet you have not done this. It was never about the gospel. it was about his nation and his people. And it was NOT about you and me.. no matter how hard you try to make it be. Daniel was not praying about us, he was praying about his kin folk. who were being punished for thier sin, and still had not repented. And his city, which he loved dearly, which was in ruins. And the promise God made through Abraham,

I assure you, you are the only one questioning God's faithfulness, I'm certainly not. God keeps His promises, period. The issue is, what did His promises consist of and how has/will He keep them? You insist that God must keep His promises according to the way you understand those promises, but you refuse to consider that maybe God has kept His promises, but in a way you are simly not aware of.

Oh I am? he will keep his promise to me, and ALL he gave eternal life too.

But he will keep all his other promises which had nothing to do with salvation either. Your the one who is denying this and trying to make them ALl a salvic issue.

For example, most Jews believe God has not yet fulfilled His promise to send them a deliverer. But He has. Just not the kind of Deliverer they were expecting.

Agree.. But that is because they are looking for th eking who had not ocme yet, and not the servant who must come first. They do not think they need a savior. they think their law makes them right with God. Nothing has changecd, and it was all prophesied this would happen.

In the same way God has kept His promises that you insist he has not kept, just not the way you demand based on a particular interpretation. But as with the Jews, your interpretation is the problem, not God's faithfulness.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Disagree. God said I give you this forever. Not based on your earning it. Not based on your good works. But as an eternal gift. And I call you Gods people.

Forever is not over with. the people still exist. the land still exists. Of God renigs on his promise, and ALL isreal repents. and he does not return them to what he promised them. then we have serious issues.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/B][/COLOR]Israel ... the only nation under the Old Covenant and subject to the judgment of the Law. Jesus said not one jot or tittle of the Law could pass until all the Law was fulfilled. Well, a lot of those jots and tittles of the Law were about the judgment of the nation of Israel if they failed to keep covenant with God, which they did, time and again throughout their history, as the Old Testament records. These jots and tittles of the Law had to be fulfilled as well as all the salvation promises. And once it was all fulfilled, the blessings and the curses, then it all passed away.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

lol.. God said he would judge the gentiles. not the jews..do you even read prophesy?? When were you taken out of your promised land of safety and made slaves of a foreign nation because you disobeyed Gods law and played the harlot? And God make you a promise he would punish th epeople who took you out of your land because of this, after you repented, and punish them severely.

Nice try though!

 

[loveme1]

Daniel 9

4And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; 5We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments: 6Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

John 14

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. 30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. 31But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Daniel 9
4And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; 5We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments: 6Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

Who are the "We" Daniel was speaking about?

 

[loveme1]

Who are the "We" Daniel was speaking about?

Out of the we which is Israel, who does it say the Covenant is kept with?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Out of the we which is Israel, who does it say the Covenant is kept with?

I did not ask you this. i ask you who the we were daniel was praying for?

who sinned?
who rejected the prophets that God sent them?
who rebelled against Gods commands given to them?
to all the people of what land?

and how about the rest?

[SUP]7 [/SUP]O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]“O Lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. [SUP]9 [/SUP]To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him. [SUP]10[/SUP]We have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him


What curse?? where did this ocme from and who was it gen to?

[SUP]
12 [/SUP]And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]“As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore the Lord has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!

 

[zone]

Daniel 9

John 14

John 17
The High Priestly Prayer
1When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

9I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.a 16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify themb in the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19And for their sake I consecrate myself,c that they also may be sanctifiedd in truth.

20“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[zone]

Who are the "We" Daniel was speaking about?

When is the seventieth week, and what is its point?The Messiah now experiences something “after the sixty-two weeks” (Da 9:26), which follow the preceding “seven weeks” (v 25). This will occur, then, sometime after the sixty-ninth week. A natural reading of the text requires that this occurs in the seventieth week, for that is the only time frame remaining for accomplishing the prophecy’s goal listed in verse 24. That which occurs at this time is: “Messiah shall be cut off.” The Hebrew word translated “cut off” here (karath) “is used of the death penalty, Lev. 7:20; and refers to a violent death,” [1] i.e, the death of Christ on the cross.

Given the Hebraic pattern of repetition, we may easily discern a parallel between verses 26 and 27; verse 27 gives an expansion of verse 26. Negatively, Messiah’s cutting off in verse 26 results from Israel’s completing her transgression and bringing it to a culmination (v 24) by crucifying the Messiah. [2] Positively, verse 27 states this same event: “He shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.” Considered from its positive effect, this confirming the covenant with many makes reconciliation and brings in everlasting righteousness (v 24). The confirming of a covenant (v 27) refers to the covenantal actions of verse 24, which result from the perfect covenantal Jubilee (Seventy Weeks) and are the consequence of Daniel’s covenantal prayer (cf. v 4). The covenant men-tioned, then, is the divine covenant of God’s redemptive grace. [3] Messiah comes to confirm the covenantal promises (Lk 1:72; Eph 2:12). He confirms the covenant by dying on the cross (Heb 7:22b). [4]

The word translated “confirm” (higbir) is related to the angel Gabriel’s name, who brought Daniel the revelation of the Seventy Weeks (and who later brings the revelation of Christ’s birth [Lk 1:19, 26]). “Gabriel” is based on the Hebrew gibbor, “strong one,” a concept frequently asso-ciated with the covenant God. [5] The related word found in Daniel 9:27 means to “make strong, confirm.” [6] This “firm covenant” brings about “everlasting righteousness” (Da 9:24) — hence its firmness.

Daniel’s prayer is particularly for Israel (Da 9:3ff), and recognizes God’s promises of mercy upon those who love him (v 4). Therefore, the covenant will be confirmed with many for one week. The “many”refers to the faithful in Israel. “Thus a contrast is introduced between He and the Many, a contrast which appears to reflect upon the great Messianic passage, Isaiah 52:13–53:12 and particularly 53:11. Although the entire nation will not receive salvation, the many will receive.” [7]

This confirming God’s covenant to the “many” of Israel occurs in the middle of the seventieth week (v 27). This parallels “after the sixty-two [and seven] weeks” (v 26) and provides more detail. We know Christ’s three-and-one-half-year ministry focuses on the Jews in the first half of the seventieth week (Mt 10:5b; Mt 15:24). For a period of three and one-half years after the crucifixion, [8] the apostles focus almost exclusively on the Jews, beginning first “in Judea” (Ac 1:8; 2:14) because “the gospel of Christ” is “for the Jew first” (Ro 1:16; cf. 2:10; Jn 4:22).

Although the prophecy clearly specifies the terminus of the sixty-ninth week, such is not the case with the terminus of the seventieth. Thus, the exact event that ends the seventieth is not so significant for us to know. Apparently at the stoning of Stephen, Christianity’s first martyr, the covenantal proclamation begins turning toward the Gentiles (Ac 8:1). The apostle to the Gentiles appears on the scene at Stephen’s death (Ac 7:58–8:1; 22:20), as the Jewish persecution against Christianity breaks out. Paul’s mission clearly exceeds the narrow Jewish focus (Ac 9:15; 22:21; 26:17; Ro 1:5; 11:13; 15:16; Gal 1:16; 2:7; 3:1, 8; 1Ti 2:7; 4:17).

This covenant’s confirmation occurs “in the middle of the week” (Da 9:27). Above I show that the seventieth week begins with Christ’s baptismal anointing. Then, after three and one-half years of ministry — the middle of the seventieth week — Christ suffers crucifixion (Lk 13:6–9; Eusebius, Eccl. Hist. 1:10:3). Thus, the prophecy states that by his confirming the covenant, Messiah will “bring an end to sacrifice and offering” (v 27) by offering up Himself as a sacrifice for sin (Heb 9:25–26; cf. Heb 7:11–12, 18–22). Consequently, at his death the temple’s veil tears from top to bottom (Mt 27:51), showing that God is legally disestablishing the sacrificial system (cf. Mt 23:38), for Christ is the Lamb of God (Jn 1:29; Ac 8:32; 1Pe 19; Rev 5–7), who is offered once and for all (Heb 10:4–10).

Against Dispensationalism

 

[Pilgrimer]

Romans 1 says man knows they are rightly judged, they do not need proof. They hide it in their unbelief. They did not need AD 70 to prove it to them.

You misunderstand. I was speaking of proof to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah and proof to the Gentiles that Jesus is the Son of God. As for the Gentiles, before the coming and work of Jesus, God "winked" at the ignorance of the world, but now that Jesus has come, and has through the Gospel shed abroad the knowledge of God, the world is without excuse and stands in danger of the judgment by this man God has ordained to be their judge. And should any doubt that God will not judge the world at the 2nd coming of Jesus, they only need look at the people of God under the Old Covenant and the terrible judgment and destruction that fell upon that nation for their sin and rebellion against their Maker when God visited them in the person of His Son during the generation of Jesus' first coming.

Satan is not bound. When satan is bound there will be no evil nations. they will not rebell against God. they will have no power. Have you not read the OT? who gives power to th enations to decieve, and over run? It is satan and his army.

You are confusing Satan being bound with Satan being cast into the lake of fire. This old world will never be without evil or those who rebel against God until the Lord Jesus returns and the devil and all that live in rebellion against their Creator are cast into the lake of fire. Then there will be a new heaven and earth and then there will be no more evil, no more rebellion against the Lord of Heaven and Earth, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life will inherit the world to come and will walk in loving and faithful obedience to all that the Lord wills. So you have confused conditions on earth during the Day of Salvation and this present world with the conditions of the Eternal State and the world to come. It is in the world to come that all creation will be restored to sinlessness.

What Satan being bound means is that the ancient foe of God and of man has been cast down out of heaven and is now chained in the realms of darkness. Never again can he enter into or tread the courts of heaven and come into the presence of the Father to accuse the brethren for the One Mediator between man and God even now stands in the presence of God a perpetual offering for our sin. So Satan and his minions are powerless to enter into or walk any longer in the kingdom of light but are confined to the deepest reaches of darkness to carry out their evil works.

But against the light of the truth of the Gospel, Satan and his demons are powerless. Which is why that old father of lies will use anything to take a Christian’s eyes off Jesus, off the Gospel, off the great and liberating truth that Satan is already defeated, that Christ has already won, and that one word from the Risen, Glorified Holy One and all hell flees and melts away like shadows before the noonday sun. To convince the Church that Jesus Christ DOES NOT reign in this earth, right here, right now, is the single most effective weapon the father of lies has devised since that old serpent was chained up in the pit. And we have a weak, sickly, powerless church to prove it.

Paul said our battle is not against flesh and blood but principalities and powers. And satan walks around like a lion seeking who he may devour.

Precisely, and he is devouring Christians left and right because they do not know, they do not understand that all power and all authority in heaven and earth has been given to Jesus and through him to them. They have been sold the lie that Satan reigns in this world, not Jesus, that Satan is Lord of the earth, not Christ who shed his blood to ransom the world from the power of the devil. Think about this ... how on earth could you possibly have faith that you can be victorious over the enemy if you don't truly believe that Jesus Christ reigns, here and now, in this earth, even over the powers of hell? How do you think our sorry souls were delivered from hell in the first place? By a Jesus who has the power and authority to reach down into the very pit and break the chains that enslave us and set us free!

If this is what th eearth looks like when satan is bound, and God is ruling himself. Heaven does not look like a very nice place.

What? You mean an earth where day by day the Gospel is going out into every corner of the world? And day by day men and women are being liberated from sin and the power of darkness? Day by day men and women are coming to know their Creator, in a real and personal way? Souls are being saved? Broken hearts are being mended? Lives are being changed? Day by day by day? If all you see when you look upon this old world is darkness, maybe it’s your eyes that need changing to see the hand of God at work in this world. Maybe you should get out of your narrowly defined “end time” world and find a place where God is at work and just maybe you will begin to see the power and the glory of God.

Oh it was? Ok so this is what daniel was praying about. I pray God does not anwer your prayers this way. Daniel was not even praying about the old covenant.

Daniel was praying about the future of his people Israel and Gabriel showed him what would befall them "in the latter days" of the Old Covenant age, and what the Messiah’s coming would mean for the nation … judgment and destruction. Jesus came, and the nation was judged and destroyed while a remnant of the nation were saved and went on to become the foundation walls of the new temple God is still in the process of building. Did you not know that? What do you think the events of 66 - 73 A.D. was all about? Some meaningless accident of history? That's what God showed Daniel was to be the fate of Daniel's people which would culminate in the complete and utter destruction of the Jewish state and the Holy City, which came to pass in the final 7 years of the Mosaic age.

Sorry, I can not destroy context to make my belief fit scripture. Calvanists do this with romans 9.

The roman church does this with MOST of their doctrinal beliefs.. If you want to be like them, feel free. But as for me. I will use proper hermeneutics and force context of scripture to form my belief, not the other way around!

Context? Hermeneutics? What about the Gospel, brother? What about the one and only thing that not only saved you, but the one and only thing that can stand between you and the lies of the enemy? The truth about Jesus? The light of the Gospel of God is the ONLY THING that stands between you and hell. Not eschatology. Not prophecy. Not the Old Testament. Not the Law. Not the prophets. Not context. And not hermeneutics. Not Hebrew and not Greek. The Gospel of Salvation. If only you were as faithful to it as you are to “context” and “hermeneutics.” If the Gospel formed your belief you would see the power of God in your life, brother, rather than the darkness and hopelessness you see when you look around.

Your talking of the mosaic covenant. Yes that is done away, but the abrahamic still stands. isreal was chosen based on the abrahamic.. not the mosaic. You have your covenants confused.

The mosaic was taken away and fulfilled when jesus said it was finished. It was fulfilled. his purpose for comming was complete. the old had passed away, behold all things are new.

Come now brother, it is self-evident that what you said is not true. When Jesus died, did the Mosaic sacrifices and oblations cease? When Jesus breathed his last did the temple and the altar disappear? When he was laid in that tomb, did the Holy City sink into the dust and rubble? No, the Mosaic Covenant did not pass away until 40 years after. That’s the whole point. That’s what the 70[SUP]th[/SUP] week was about. That’s what Daniel 9 foretold. That's what fully half of all Old Testament prophecy was about, the final judgment of the Jewish nation under the Old Covenant. The end and passing away of the Old Covenant. That didn’t happen at Calvary. What happened at Calvary is that God fulfilled all the promises of salvation and blessing, including all those promises to Abraham. The New Covenant was established first, then afterward, 40 years after, the old passed away, and that's what the 7-year war and the time of "Jacob's" trouble was all about. Now that the Old Covenant has been fulfilled even the Jew will one day stand before Jesus and be judged on the same basis as all other men, whether or not their names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Yet daniel was told of many thing which would happen after this event.

Again, Context my friend. If it was finished on the cross. there would be no need to speak of ANYTHING past those events.. Yet Gabriel told him of many events after the cutting off of messiah.

Yes, Gabriel told Daniel how after the Messiah was cut off the city and the sancturay would be destroyed. It was. Jesus was crucified in 30 A.D. and the city of Jerusalem and the Herodian Temple were destroyed in 70 A.D.

So it was written, so it was done.

It was never about the gospel.

Come now brother, everything was about the Gospel. Everything before the Cross looked forward to it, and everything since has looked back to and flowed from it. The Cross stands at the center of time, and at the center of the Bible. It is what the Old Testament pointed to, and what the New Testament bears witness to. The Gospel of Salvation is why God created this old world, and everything in it, so that God might glorify Himself. And this is the glory of God …

“For God so loved the world ...”

I’ll have to comment on the rest of your post later, but brother, I ask you in sincere love and in Jesus’ name, do not be so quick to turn away from the things I have said, there is no “truth” apart from the Gospel. You must lay a solid foundation of understanding on that tried and precious cornerstone which is Jesus. Then, and only then, will you have the tools you need to test doctrines and know if they are true, plumb, and square ...

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[eternally-gratefull]

first off. could you please split these into smaller posts. It is very hard when at times you are limited on time to respond to large posts like this at once.

You misunderstand. I was speaking of proof to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah and proof to the Gentiles that Jesus is the Son of God.

AD 70 did not prove this at all, If it did. jews would have repented in numbers, And gentiles would have been saved in droves after this event, quite the opposite happened.

Not to mention. If it was this important to prove Jesus Christ, god would have held out finishing scripture, and made sure this got in there so all the world could see this massive proof. And know it came from God.

As for the Gentiles, before the coming and work of Jesus, God "winked" at the ignorance of the world, but now that Jesus has come, and has through the Gospel shed abroad the knowledge of God, the world is without excuse and stands in danger of the judgment by this man God has ordained to be their judge. And should any doubt that God will not judge the world at the 2nd coming of Jesus, they only need look at the people of God under the Old Covenant and the terrible judgment and destruction that fell upon that nation for their sin and rebellion against their Maker when God visited them in the person of His Son during the generation of Jesus' first coming.

lol.. Hate to say it, But people had no excuse before Christ came and before ad 70. Many Gentiles became believers in the OT. if you read it, it is obvious they know they are rightly judged. But they loved their sin more than God, and made up their own Gods who would not judge them. Also. Jerusalem was destroyed by babylon, and Isreal was under (still is) gentile dominion from that time forward. If ad 70 was proof. Then the proof has been happening since Babylon first over-through Judah (actually it started with Syria) I mean Isaiah doing what he did and killing almost 800 prophets did not change Israel or the gentiles minds. It angered them more, because he proved their gods were false and had no power.

I will also say, I have never heard these arguments before. are they new?

You are confusing Satan being bound with Satan being cast into the lake of fire.

Oh I am? when satan is cast into the lake of fire he is done. When he is bound, he is not able to DECIEVE NATIONS.. seems he is doing a prety good job at decieving nations even today. and you want to say he is bound? An army who's leader is taken out and bound is dead. Satans army is going prety strong right now.. Why? Because satan still has full control. Scripture says he is still creeping around looking who to devour. One who is bound can not go out looking for who to destroy, they are locked up.

This old world will never be without evil or those who rebel against God until the Lord Jesus returns and the devil and all that live in rebellion against their Creator are cast into the lake of fire. Then there will be a new heaven and earth and then there will be no more evil, no more rebellion against the Lord of Heaven and Earth, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life will inherit the world to come and will walk in loving and faithful obedience to all that the Lord wills. So you have confused conditions on earth during the Day of Salvation and this present world with the conditions of the Eternal State and the world to come. It is in the world to come that all creation will be restored to sinlessness.

Not at all. I am showing the difference between the world where newborn kids will sleep with lions and not be afraid. where neighbors all agree to what the gospel is and who Christ is, and their is no fighting. where the nations come to worship the savior, who is on his throne. where alot of things happen which make that time different than today. where at the end, satan is loosed, and again prepares an army to fight Christ in one final battle, and Christ wipes this army out with his words. and THEN the end comes.

but I guess this world will not exist. we have to go on thinking evil will continue as it is.. not that God is being patient..but the day of his wrath will surely come, followed by a time of peace unlike this world has ever seen. yet people will still reject him (why it is so easy for satan to get an army so fast)



I will leave it here for now. and respond to the rest later;

 

[zone]

To place the 70th week in the future is to deny that Christ made reconciliation for iniquity when He died on the Cross, which would strike at the very foundations of Christianity.

If Christ did not make reconciliation for iniquity on the Cross, then we may as well become Muslims or Zen Buddhists [or Jews]




Daniel's Prophecy of the 70 Weeks

By Thomas Williamson


"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." Daniel 9:24-27.

Daniel’s prophecy of the 70 weeks is one of the most significant prophecies in the Bible, and one of the most misunderstood.

In this prophecy, the Jews were given the approximate time of the coming of their Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ. For this reason, there was a great air of expectancy among the Jews 483 years after the order by the Persian king Artaxerxes for the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem in 445 BC (see Nehemiah 2:4-8).

It is generally accepted that the weeks in Daniel 9:24 are weeks of years, or periods of 7 years. The coming of Christ after 483 years (69 times 7), thus fulfilling this prophecy, is one of the greatest proofs of the divine inspiration of the Bible.

When Christ came, He told the people that "the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel," Mark 1:15. The time that had been fulfilled was the chronology that had been given by Daniel.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

Daniel 9:24 gives us specific prophecies that would be fulfilled by Christ by the end of the 70 weeks or 490 years. He would "finish the transgression," which was accomplished when Christ died on the cross, saying "It is finished," (John 19:30, see also Hebrews 9:15).

He would "make an end of sins," which can be understood as making an end of the sacrifice for sins. Christ did this when He offered Himself for our sins once and forever on the cross, Hebrews 9:26, 10:12, thus taking away the sin of the world, John 1:29, 1 John 3:5.

He would "make reconciliation for iniquity." Christ made reconciliation for the sins of the people on the Cross, Ephesians 2:16, Hebrews 2:17.

He would "bring in everlasting righteousness." Christ has been made unto us righteousness, Romans 5:18, 1 Corinthians 1:30, Colossians 1:20.

He would "seal up the vision and prophecy." We are told that Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets, Matthew 5:17, Acts 3:18, Romans 3:21.

The Most Holy would be anointed, and this was fulfilled when Christ was anointed to be our Savior, Luke 4:18, 21.

In Daniel 9:26 we are told that Christ would be cut off, but not for Himself - He died for us. The next event after that on the prophetic calendar would be the arrival of the "prince that shall come" to destroy the city of Jerusalem and the Temple.

This was fulfilled in 70 AD when the Roman general Titus came, within one generation of the time of Christ, as predicted (Matthew 23:35-36, 24:34) and destroyed Jerusalem.

In verse 27 we are told that Christ would confirm the covenant with many (not all) for one week (Daniel’s 70th week). We are told in Hebrews 12:24 that Christ was the mediator of the new covenant. In the middle of the week Christ caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease, when He died on the cross for our sins - at that moment when He was on the cross, the veil of the temple was torn in half (Matthew 27:51, see also Hebrews 10:18).

This disruption of the temple sacrifices was a sign that Christ had opened for us the way into the heavenly sanctuary, so that the animal sacrifices in the Temple were no longer necessary. (Based on this reference to Messiah’s ministry culminating "in the midst of the week" it has been traditionally believed that His earthly ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years).

Over the centuries, the great commentators have agreed that Christ is the One who confirmed the covenant with many (see Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole, Adam Clarke, Jamieson Fausset and Brown, Edward Young, John Calvin, John Wesley, Geneva Study Bible, etc). The Church Fathers such as Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Athanasius, Augustine and Eusebius regarded the 70th week of Daniel as having already been fulfilled by Christ’s earthly ministry, as did the Venerable Bede, John Wycliffe, Luther, Melancthon, John Gill, etc.

Take a close look at Daniel 9:24. This verse clearly describes Christ’s earthly ministry, and tells us that all these things, including His making reconciliation for iniquity by dying on the Cross, were to take place within the 70 week period. Therefore, all 70 weeks have already been fulfilled.

To place the 70th week in the future is to deny that Christ made reconciliation for iniquity when He died on the Cross, which would strike at the very foundations of Christianity.

If Christ did not make reconciliation for iniquity on the Cross, then we may as well become Muslims or Zen Buddhists.

Daniel's Prophecy of the 70 Weeks < click

 

[cfultz3]

I will paste a link to a study of Daniel's 70 weeks in here also in hope that one takes their own initiative and study themselves.

Biblical Studies

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Precisely, and he is devouring Christians left and right because they do not know, they do not understand that all power and all authority in heaven and earth has been given to Jesus and through him to them. They have been sold the lie that Satan reigns in this world, not Jesus, that Satan is Lord of the earth, not Christ who shed his blood to ransom the world from the power of the devil. Think about this ... how on earth could you possibly have faith that you can be victorious over the enemy if you don't truly believe that Jesus Christ reigns, here and now, in this earth, even over the powers of hell? How do you think our sorry souls were delivered from hell in the first place? By a Jesus who has the power and authority to reach down into the very pit and break the chains that enslave us and set us free!

wow. And this proves satan is not bound? I KNOW satan has no power over me. But that is not the subject here. nor is thegospel the subject here. THIS IS NOT AGOSPEL ISSUE

The subject is nations. not individual people. When satan is BOUND he will not be able to decieve NATIONS anymore.

What? You mean an earth where day by day the Gospel is going out into every corner of the world? And day by day men and women are being liberated from sin and the power of darkness? Day by day men and women are coming to know their Creator, in a real and personal way? Souls are being saved? Broken hearts are being mended? Lives are being changed? Day by day by day? If all you see when you look upon this old world is darkness, maybe it’s your eyes that need changing to see the hand of God at work in this world. Maybe you should get out of your narrowly defined “end time” world and find a place where God is at work and just maybe you will begin to see the power and the glory of God.

No. not even close

A day where my kids can walk the street and not worry about getting raped and plundered
Where Gods people can worship and pray freely and not have to worry about getting killed for their belief

A day where evil dictators do not rule by raping, killing and plundering anyone who gets in their way

A day where false gospels. 1000 different religions are gone.. and everyone is worshiping Christ.

A day where there is no war. Where mothers do not lose sons, Wives do not lose husbands,

A day where the rain is plentiful, there is no drought, No one is starving. Everyone is shown, and shows the love of God. where neighbor does not have to give the gospel to neighbor because everyone knows the gospel.

You know. all the things The OT prophets prophesied about?

You do not think this would be a great day??

Daniel was praying about the future of his people Israel

Wrong. Daniel spoke in present and past tense. We have sinned, We have killed, We have disobayed. We are in sin, We are not repenting, We are ....

Daniel was not praying future tense, this is a false pretense. Daniel was asking for God to show mercy on Gods people and city NOW. Not later.

and Gabriel showed him what would befall them "in the latter days" of the Old Covenant age, and what the Messiah’s coming would mean for the nation … judgment and destruction.

Again wrong, the old covenant was not even in question, another adding to the word of God. Gabriel said basicially, your people will be in sin for 70 more weeks. at the end of that 70- weeks, the sin will stop. Just like all the other prophets spoke of. When isreal repented. admitted their sin, the sin of their fathers, and came to christ.

Jesus came, and the nation was judged and destroyed while a remnant of the nation were saved and went on to become the foundation walls of the new temple God is still in the process of building. Did you not know that? What do you think the events of 66 - 73 A.D. was all about? Some meaningless accident of history? That's what God showed Daniel was to be the fate of Daniel's people which would culminate in the complete and utter destruction of the Jewish state and the Holy City, which came to pass in the final 7 years of the Mosaic age

No what I see is what scripture said would happen. Isreal would deny her messiah, get completely destroyed and scattered throughout the whole earth (never happened until AD 70) then at some time in the future, repent and return to god.

In the meantime, God will not forget his promise to the fathers, or his covenent he made wit Abraham, And he WILL KEEP A REMNANT, he will NOT DESTROY THE NATION.

what other entity did God make this promise to?

Context? Hermeneutics? What about the Gospel, brother?

What about it? The gospel is finished. Salvation is paid in full to ALL PEOPLE, Jew or Gentile. There is nothing else to be done here.

But we are not talking about this, we are talking of events in human history which have NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION?

I am going to stop right here. People keep making this a salvation issue, and claim I do not believe Jesus paid it all. This is not true. and if we can not agree to agree on this point, we can never even agree to disagree on other points, because there are no points to make!