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Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
3,055
905
113
#81
An act of love for those whom He has predestined as sons...

(Eph 1:5) he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
There are two ways to understand Ephesians 1:5.

1) God's will was always predestined in and through Christ only, so that anyone who calls on Jesus will be saved.

2) God is sovereign in everything, God has chosen the elect from eternity past, to be adopted as His own, i.e., His individual election.

I do not believe anyone, absolutely knows, which one is the correct reading of Ephesians 1:5.

I leave a question mark at the end of Ephesians 1:5?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,743
3,671
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#82
If you never mentioned love to the unsaved, then you would not be talking about Jesus Christ. Everything Jesus did and said, was driven by God's unconditional love for us.

Love is the dominant attribute that has displayed to humanity through human history. If God executed real justice or judgment, then we wouldn't be here, would we?

God's love for us is an unconditional love, you can even define love as 'grace' if you wish.
You say ‘for us’ but what about the non elect? Did he choose and predestined them as sons? (Eph 1:5)
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,743
3,671
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#83
Many are called few are chosen. God has called all men to repentance .
But there is only one way to approach God and that is through JESUS. Him and him alone.
God came to man. Man did not go to GOD.
A free gift was offered to all, does that mean to all that God approves of? Certainly not for all were sinners.
Is one sin greater than another? Certainly not. For if one law be broken then all are broken.
We cannot approach God on our own terms, in our own ways. God has made the way of acceptance.
God sees us in the present as well as in the future. There is a work that JESUS is doing in all of us that only he can bring to totality. If we choose. Jesus said...consider the cost. The world will hate you for they hated me. In this world there will be many tribulations.
Jesus showed the way but he did not pave the path. All in all we are to over come this world as he did.
Sadly many will choose a different path. Which will seem right but leads to destruction.

I look at predestined to be a term or word used to remind us that the plan of salvation was thought out before the foundations of creation were formed. Keeping in mind that God knows and sees the end from the beginning.
So yes God had predestined all’, but as JESUS said .....there are few that find it.




.
Just the concept ‘God predestined all’ (to eternal life) is a bit nonsensical to me, as Scripture shows many perishing.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,449
29,677
113
#84
@Magenta ...
This is so beautiful...Can I please save it to my computer , I would love to print it out , and put it in my bible journal...
...xox...
Certainly, dear Rosemary! You may save any or as many as you like :D

That goes for anyone...



I did adjust it a little more ^, as the background scene looked a little dark :)


 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,449
29,677
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#85
My mind is literally boggled as I'm reading some of your posts here.

On the one hand, you keep on saying that you're not talking about salvation when you refer to God's alleged "unconditional love", and then you continue to post verses about salvation.

News flash!

The verse that you cited, IN CONTEXT, is extremely conditional.

Again, prior to meeting such CONDITIONS as faith in Christ and repentance, we were CHILDREN OF WRATH BY NATURE.
I am sorry your mind is so easily boggled that you cannot comprehend that you did nothing to merit God's love. Oh, yes, you were a child of wrath and God loved you, or did He not? You seem confused about that as well.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,449
29,677
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#86
If God is not willing that any perish and some do, then there was some condition attached IF as you say God’s love is unconditional but salvation is conditional… Your words.
I am glad you seem to be beginning to understand that salvation is conditional.

I did think you already knew that.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,449
29,677
113
#87
First of all, I'd get rid of that Bible translation if I were you. Jesus is NOT God's "only Son" (both angels and Christians are called "sons of God" in scripture), but rather God's "only BEGOTTEN Son", and there's a world of difference between the two.

Secondly, in posting this verse, you're only proving that God's love is conditional in that we need to believe in Christ or else we'll perish. Those who are without Christ are children of wrath by nature, and that wrath is God's wrath.
My apologies on that Bible translation. I am not even sure which one that is, and I am usually careful about those things. My goodness, God loved YOU as a child of wrath. You keep confusing the condition of salvation with being that for love.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#89
Jesus is holy first and foremost, and love after that. That's why the first thing He preached when He started His ministry was repentance.

So many have put love on an all-important pedestal and forgotten the holiness part. That's what itching ears like to hear I guess.
God is LOVE 1st. Love is the very essence of who and what God is.
Holy and just are what He has in eternity decided He will be.

But God in dealing with man never appeals to man's emotions, emotions come from the soul not from the human spirit which is dead in trespasses and sins.

The only love of true lasting worth is agape love. Only God has it. The love we experience as christians is not our love but God's own love which He has poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Men and women sure do need love, if love is to be used as your bait you have to SURE that your hook is God's word. It is the hook that will catch them, save them.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
#90
First of all, I'd get rid of that Bible translation if I were you. Jesus is NOT God's "only Son" (both angels and Christians are called "sons of God" in scripture), but rather God's "only BEGOTTEN Son", and there's a world of difference between the two.

Secondly, in posting this verse, you're only proving that God's love is conditional in that we need to believe in Christ or else we'll perish. Those who are without Christ are children of wrath by nature, and that wrath is God's wrath.
If it is true that God in the gospel does not talk about love as a point of attraction, He sure doesn't use fear.

The gospel is ALL about LIFE, new life, abundant life. All men are conscious that they are dying, that they are perishing

God so LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should NOT perish but have EVERLASTING LIFE.

God sent NOT His Son into the world to condemn the world [hell-fire and damnation preachers] but that through Him the world might be saved.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,449
29,677
113
#91
First of all, I'd get rid of that Bible translation if I were you.
Ugh, okay, I clicked the verse citation link and discovered it is the ESV. I do not care for the ESV. Thank you for pointing that out to me :) Sometimes Biblegateway opens to a random translation of the verse being searched when that translation is not a go-to for me. I wish they did not do that and I shall be more careful in future.
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
#92
...Remember TV, movies, video games and computer games are all sins,...
But God was willing to have some mercy (to God’s elects), which we don’t deserve because we are all guilty of our sins. At least God was willing to have at least some mercy (to God’s elects), better than no mercy at all.
What do you mean by this statement? Are you saying that doing these things are sins but God looks over it?
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
#93
Ugh, okay, I clicked the verse citation link and discovered it is the ESV. I do not care for the ESV. Thank you for pointing that out to me :) Sometimes Biblegateway opens to a random translation of the verse being searched when that translation is not a go-to for me. I wish they did not do that and I shall be more careful in future.
I wouldn't sweat it. The word is monogenē and it is not true that the English word begotten is the exact equivalent of that Greek word meaning. One and only might be closer. There is a reason NIV, ESV and many other translations don't use the word begotten. It's been a discussion among Greek Scholars and translators for a long time. It is true that monogene would include a begotten son but legitimate might be another way of saying it. The word itself means more than begotten. The Only part is what must be emphasized more than the begotten part. I am not Greek expert but I know this discussion is a common one among translators.

If begotten is someone's English go to word for it, they should be able to present their reasons that apply to the rules of Koine Greek and not just belligerently insist on the word based on some idea they have about the English meaning of begotten, since we know that they never wrote the word Begotten, they wrote monogenē. μονογενῆ

Getting rid of a translation because it does not use the word Begotten here would not find support among translators of Koine Greek to English.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,449
29,677
113
#94
I wouldn't sweat it. The word is monogenē and it is not true that the English word begotten is the exact equivalent of that Greek word meaning. One and only might be closer. There is a reason NIV, ESV and many other translations don't use the word begotten. It's been a discussion among Greek Scholars and translators for a long time. It is true that monogene would include a begotten son but legitimate might be another way of saying it. The word itself means more than begotten. The Only part is what must be emphasized more than the begotten part. I am not Greek expert but I know this discussion is a common one among translators.

If begotten is someone's English go to word for it, they should be able to present their reasons that apply to the rules of Koine Greek and not just belligerently insist on the word based on some idea they have about the English meaning of begotten, since we know that they never wrote the word Begotten, they wrote monogenē. μονογενῆ

Getting rid of a translation because it does not use the word Begotten here would not find support among translators of Koine Greek to English.
Thank you :) That was very informative! :D

Still, I really do not care for the ESV...

My usual go-to is Berean Study Bible first, and then NIV and/or KJV :geek:
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
1,383
640
113
#97
If it is true that God in the gospel does not talk about love as a point of attraction, He sure doesn't use fear.

The gospel is ALL about LIFE, new life, abundant life. All men are conscious that they are dying, that they are perishing

God so LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should NOT perish but have EVERLASTING LIFE.

God sent NOT His Son into the world to condemn the world [hell-fire and damnation preachers] but that through Him the world might be saved.
"He sure doesn't use fear"?

What Bible are you reading?

Just off the top of my head, I can think of MULTIPLE INSTANCES where Jesus, the apostles, or the prophets used fear as a motivator while warning their hearers about hell-fire and damnation.

For example, Jesus certainly had high praises for his forerunner, John the Baptist, and John preached the following:

Matthew chapter 3

[1] In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
[2] And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
[3] For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
[4] And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
[5] Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
[6] And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
[7] But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
[8] Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
[9] And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
[10] And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
[12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

John the Baptist, as he was "preparing the way of the Lord" (vs. 3), told people to "repent" (vs. 2), and to "bring forth fruits worthy of repentance" (vs. 8). He also told them that Jesus would "hew down every tree which wasn't bringing forth good fruit, and cast it into the fire" (vs. 10) or "burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (vs. 12) while "warning the people to flee from the wrath to come" (vs. 7).

Perhaps your Bible says that John told these people "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" or "Smile, Jesus loves you"?

Jesus preached the same thing that John preached;

Matthew chapter 7

[17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

And what about Jesus' parables?

From the parable of the wheat and the tares:

Matthew 13;30

[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Here's his own interpretation of the same:

[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

That certainly sounds like hell-fire preaching to me, and I could easily cite many more examples from Jesus' own lips.

You don't think that Jesus used fear as a motivator?

What about this?

Luke chapter 12

[1] In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
[2] For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
[3] Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.
[4] And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
[5] But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Do you fear the one who has power to cast into hell?

I do.

As I've said here (and elsewhere) many times in the past, the number one problem in BOTH the world AND the church (you can hardly distinguish between the two in many/most cases) is the lack of the fear of God.

And what about Jesus' commission to his apostles?

Have you never read the following?

Mark chapter 6

[7] And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
[8] And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
[9] But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
[10] And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
[11] And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
[12] And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

The apostle preached REPENTANCE, and they shook the dust off their feet as a testimony against those who refused the same while understanding that it would be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha on the day of judgment than for those who refused the gospel. In case you haven't heard, Sodom and Gomorrha were wiped out by FIRE AND BRIMSTONE.

How about Paul?

What was his motivator?

II Corinthians chapter 5

[10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
[11] Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

How about you?

Do you know THE TERROR OF THE LORD?

If you're like most professing "Christians", including quite a number of those on this website, then you most certainly don't.

Anyhow, to the OP's question, the apostles preached exactly what Jesus told them to preach:

Luke chapter 24

[46] And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
[47] And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
[48] And ye are witnesses of these things.

Of course, Paul preached the same thing:

Acts chapter 26

[12] Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
[13] At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
[14] And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
[15] And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
[16] But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
[17] Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
[18] To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
[19] Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
[20] But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

I'll stick with the likes of John the Baptist, Jesus, and the apostles.
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
1,383
640
113
#98
My goodness, God loved YOU as a child of wrath. You keep confusing the condition of salvation with being that for love.
I'm not confusing anything.

I perfectly understand that God was motivated by love in sending Christ, BUT in order for anyone to be a recipient of the same, there are conditions which need to be met. With such being the case, how can you not see that God's love is conditional?

Ironically, while trying to defend your assertion that God's love is unconditional and something separate from salvation which has conditions, you keep quoting verses about salvation.

Anyhow, I'm well aware of God's love, but I received it IN CHRIST.

THAT was the condition.

If we haven't met the conditions which place us IN CHRIST, then we're children of wrath by nature, and God's wrath abides upon us.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,449
29,677
113
#99
I perfectly understand that God was motivated by love in sending Christ, BUT in order for anyone to be a recipient of the same, there are conditions which need to be met. With such being the case, how can you not see that God's love is conditional?
What condition did you meet for God to love you? You know, while you were a child of wrath, when He extended grace to you.
Tell me what condition you met to merit that. Do not give anything related to salvation. We both know that is conditional.


I was giving salvic verses before with the hope you would connect the
dots to your being unworthy of receiving such a gift. Ack. To no avail.
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
1,383
640
113
"Photo" might be the wrong word. I was talking about the image that you created and posted here.

Look, I don't mean you any disrespect at all. I get that you're trying to use your artistic talents to bring glory and honor to God, and I've been doing the same for years with my own t-shirt designs. That said, I'd strongly urge you to keep away from posting images of "Jesus" that are pretty much idolatrous. I'm sorry, but I cannot think of a softer word to describe it.

Speaking of t-shirts, years ago, I had a "Christian" t-shirt (I didn't design that one) that depicted Mary and the baby Jesus on it. Well, I happened to be wearing that shirt one day while evangelizing on the streets of New York City. My friend and I were preaching Christ to a group of Muslim men, and then one of them said to me, after pointing at the depiction of "Jesus" on my t-shirt, "I'm not interested in the white man's God".

While I'm on this topic, and, again, I mean you no disrespect whatsoever, I would also advise you to stop depicting angels as females in your artwork because they're all males in scripture.

Hopefully, you'll consider what I'm saying before the Lord.